Stop shitting up other threads and make your arguments for or against feminism here you faggots.
Feminism Containment Thread
It shouldn’t even be a topic of argument. Anti-feminism should be banned. Retards who want to keep 50% of humanity oppressed are anti-socialist
Is vinterflamma the hottest girl on left twitter? Who are the others?
Don't shit up the thread, but please observe this post as a classic example of derailing, concern trolling, and consensus cracking. Idpol proponents resort to such tactics in lieu of arguments.
Shoo, idealist. Vague "oppression" is irrelevant to socialist politics. Demanding people accept a label or premise is authoritarian and undialectical. Identify some material problem to solve or fuck off and jerk off about being a good person in private.
Very (right) liberal of you.
If you think that socialism needs feminism to liberate female workers then you're an incredibly shitty socialist. Saying that is like saying we'd all just rape and murder each other without Jesus. Says more about you than anyone else.
Beware womynkind! Male socialists will have all the power in socialism, because of the unbelievable gangster frankenstein misogyny controls implanted in our society by the World Wide Mad Deadly Communist Gangster Patriarchy! Our only hope for a future is to whine at men until they give us their male privilege.
This is not bad by itself
Feminism is a needed force in the world, whether it is in countries where women are horribly oppressed like in the Middle East, or even here in the West where there is still a fight over abortion rights and issues with equal pay. It's not a facet of my identity or something that I jerk myself off over to be a good person, it's just something I believe. Same with anti-racism
Regardless of your position on states, authoritarianism in left discourse is bad.
Dialectics, as in the interaction of conflicting ideas, is crucial for political discourse. Trying to suppress dissent is both bad and dumb because it just becomes part of the discourse, prompting resistance that pushes it back, which means in the end it just wastes time.
Feminism isn't a force. It's a wide ranging set of ideologies that have no universal element but the label and insistence on applying the label. In any specific context a particular feminist theory can be a political force, but by no means is it the One True theory of gender emancipation.
Most forms of feminism have at their center 2 gross misconceptions about gender that make them sub-optimal even where their adherents do accomplish positive changes. 1) Gender isn't a hierarchy of men over women, but of gender roles over all people. 2) The female gender role is not in general a deviation from the "male default" but both genders have roles they're expected to fulfill that historically develop to be inverse and complementary both ideologically (subject/object) and materially (productive/reproductive labor).
The priblem with feminism isn't "reeeee don't help women" but "You have to go all the way to the end." Don't stop with a lopsided analysis of an intrinsically binary ideology. Focusing on women is easy because part of the traditional female gender role is to be seen as more sympathetic. If you're not being made deeply uncomfortable then you're not actually examining your biases, just sublimating them through some newly sanctioned process. Most of feminism isn't even challenging female gender roles, just finding some "woke" rationalization for what's already status quo.
Feminism, just like the USSR, having accomplished good things, isn't above criticism. Not even criticism of the fundamentals.
I was responding to someone who linked him. I don't keep up with e-celeb drama so I don't know that one. Story?
50% of humanity but 98% of the idpol. Women are cancer.
The girl in OP's picture.
lmao read some Marx you retard
Dialectic isn't just a Max thing you bitch ass nigga.
Then show us the real oppression that is not just capitalism in action, because right now it looks like an imagined zeitgeist.
Can we make this a incel containment thread too, the autists for or against this shit constantly spam the board.
Op here, I would have no problems with this.
There's lots of oppression going around in this world. Most of it emanating from the power structures enabled by capitalism/statism, but some of it simply comes from the cultural baggage of our more theistic age.
Others have been more interested in cataloging such things than I. Look for yourself.
Frankly sick of it too.
doesn't that mean you want to ban feminism? Anti-feminists on here are egalitarians who support equality for everyone, which is an anti-feminist belief as you know.
fuck off and go back to /r/socialism if you hate men so much.
Agreed. Hell, let's put all sex politics into containment. It always comes down to nothing more than crying "victim" while engaging in cheap sophistry, like:
It is not up to other people to make your argument for you. If you have nothing, just admit it.
Over and over and over again we correct this insipid, and probably on purpose, misunderstanding, and you pretend to not hear us/me.
And it is not up to me to educate you. Really though. You wont listen to me anymore than the fraud above.
It's been cataloged. Go.
^This right here is what arguing in bad faith looks like. Learn to recognize it.
>Then show us the real oppression that is not just capitalism in action, because right now it looks like an imagined zeitgeist.
You admit to being blind to other people's hardships.
Just because you see HRC walking around does not mean there is a need to abandon socialism and its component issues
Just because you see Obama walking around does not mean there is a need to abandon socialism and its component issues
You can only cite bonkers liberal third-wave to back this idea up. You frauds need to fuck off.
You don't even have burden of proof straight. Nobody's going to take you at your word that you're right here. Support your claims or fuck off.
And she won't tell us what they are. No, we have to go construct her argument for her.
If you put half as much effort into telling people what your position is as you do telling other people what their position is you might actually be able to construct a legitimate argument.
This is an economic condition piece, not what their home life is like or how men treat them in general. Better when they bring home money certainly, but not everyone is employed. How's the homeless situation there? How's the prostitution going? Domestic abuse never called in?
Still telling people what their positions are without articulating your own, I see.
You might want to read 1984 again. They had to torture Winston before he got to the "whatever you say is right" stage. You're only gonna hook the most gullible fucktards if that's you're starting point. You gotta at least gaslight people with "we were always allied with trans people… no, we were always at war with trans people" first.
No. Observing what your positions are or how you are presenting yourselves. But true, I haven't even said one word about feminism (instead I've explained how socialism and feminism merged) while you've assumed plenty.
Really bizarre out of context words-in-my-mouth post.
What the what?
If you don't get the reference I guess you should read 1984 for the first time then.
Speaking as someone somewhat sympathetic to some accomplishments of 1st-wave and 2nd-wave feminism, they never merged, and were always antagonistic toward each other. In particular, Emma Goldman was not a feminist.
Wow, way to claim the high ground without actually presenting an argument. Seriously, this shit has to count as "just shitposting" now.
That has never stopped feminists from saying she was though. You can be as #problematic and class reductionist as you want, but if you're #fierce enough they will embrace you as one of them and ignore anything you said against feminism after you're no longer around to correct them.
No, I meant the greentext.
Meh. They aren't anything on their own. Sexist socialists, devoutly christian socialists, fascists and liberals calling themselves socialists. w/e
I think of socialism as a pretty straightforward program for general equality for all, and these chuckle-fucks from Zig Forums are just having a laugh spamming the board up with their low humor.
As I see it socialism, libertarian-socialism, contains individualism, syndicalism, feminism, anti-colonialism, anti-capitalism, anti-statism and anti-theism. (Anarcho-primitivism and Transhumanism are outliers) But if someone is a devout religious person, they'll dilute it. Their socialism will be compromised. They will be Christ warriors primarily. But it goes only similarly for feminists. If it becomes their primary goal, women come first, than it dilutes the whole cause. But strip it out and you strip out a part of the cause, hence it is unlike Christianity since it is a foreign ideal that does oppose quite a lot socialist ideals.
If your "meninism" meme ideology is only a reiteration of socialism there's no harm in it, but that's not what Zig Forums trolls use it for. They're misogynists trying to turn socialists against women for the lulz.
Superfluous distinctions. Of course she was critical of the first wave. She was the second wave. A socialist, an egoist and Kropotkin collectivist. Now how about some mutual aid?
Yes, you are. It's a shit posters thread, OP
As I said, I'm sympathetic to some accomplishments of 1st/2nd-wave feminists, moreso than socialists of the era were, insofar as I distinguish between explicit sexism (distinguishable from capitalist oppression, could persist without capitalism, can be eliminated through legal reform under capitalism or otherwise) and implicit sexism (functionally indistinguishable from other oppression inherent in capitalism, its only difference is the immaterial psychological motivation of the perpetrator). Same with basically all identitarian issues.
This is why feminism in the modern west is dead, because everything feminism can accomplish within capitalism (legal reform) has been almost completely exhausted decades ago. It's also why MRA holds some legitimacy now, because there are (small, but definite) areas of explicit unfairness specifically against men written into the law, which could persist beyond capitalism unless explicitly eliminated.
All reasonable. I agree.
Women are fake and gay.
Not really, still I'd sell my house just to motorboat her tiddies
Got any good Pictures of her?
Brocialists before Hoxhaists
Except you mod-cuck. You like banning people so much you can skip your ass right out the door and go overdose on candy cane syringes or whatever the fuck faggot elf dudes do on Christmas
And at that feminism vastly entertains me with all its potential to accelerate shit. But women in general are trash.
To understand what modern Feminism is and why it must be stopped -
Christians believe that "without Christ we are nothing". They really mean nothing. So agreed they're going to be Christ warriors primarily.
But it's like the Zero books proprietor says in the Christmas special,
"the primary aim of socialism is not to change the ideas in people's heads but to change the material basis of society."
Who knows if we can destroy Christendom - the institutional power of Christianity we might see a resurgence of other religions without the " God" of religions of the Book but with other gods.
In an appendix at his book 'The Ark Before Noah' ,a curator at the British Museum, has some speculations about some Sumerian loan words found in Babylonian. If you do a cut and shut job on the two signs for goddess to make one sign, and then add either the sign for a third ,or two thirds, you get either"ghost," or "demon." (So a ghost ,the spirit/soul of a human , might be equivalent to a third of a (female) deity.) Dr. Finkel speculates "man= flesh and blood + divinity." (pic related)
Maybe not all of its in bad faith. But you only have to read the mostly disgruntled punters on escort review boards to find out how well brothelising half the population into phalanstries will turn out.
Hold up can we take one second to realize how terrible of a book 1984 was?
It was pretty overwrought but you know how satire is reality these days
Thank satan someone finally made a containment for feminism. r/socialism have been raiding our board and trying to bluepill us.
you have to go back
Is great to see the left is increasengly realizing feminism is nothing but a troyan horse for the left.
Troll, go back to pol
What about specifically feminist issues such as abortion? Muh egalitarianism doesn’t cover that, retard
I hope that comic is real, because it portrays perfectly that feminism is NOT even leftist.
Are you a retard?
Admiting so soon that you are just trolling..
Are you a retarded piece of shit?
Who are you quoting, newfag?
Trans men can get pregnant. How does feminism consider the rights of male-presenting and -identifying female-bodied people? It doesn't.
Egalitarians are pro-choice, but we do it without hating men
Over and over and over again we BTFO of retards like yourself and you pretend to be too retarded to understand that ACTUAL feminists are more important than just reading the dictionary.
Pic-related is your second wave feminism you retard.
In case you thought that was just a flippant response, I have seen MRAs arguing that abortion rights are men's rights too on the grounds of trans men. The more commonly discussed abortion equivalent is the "financial abortion" idea that a parent shouldn't be held financially responsible for a cgild they don't agree to have.
Gas the hags, sex war now
In a serious note, feminism is fucking matriarchy. Women shouldn't get out of the kitchen and do men's jobs
All the so called "feminists" in here should just go back to Zig Forums. You ain't fooling anyone. You tried to raid our board as nazbols, we told you to fuck off, but now you're LARPing as r/socialism rejects.
I find it annoying is that majority of the people here are talking about feminism likes it's one cohesive movement. Please when you talk about it define what type of feminism you mean and what exactly you dislike about ie(give examples). It makes discussion a whole lot better. This go's for everyone.
I've come to this conclusion. But so changing society would be what changes their minds. Those that might turn to primitivism I think would likely foster charismatics who could take advantage of the more feeble minded, but it's out of all our hands. I'll take the risk and am not too critical of primitivism. I just think that's where the reactionary, the rightwinger, may end up.
I'm not sure I follow your meaning here.
I can't find the Mazdak thread, but I think there were some comments in it about holding women as common property.
Also someone else asked somewhere else about the allocation of women in Charles Fourier's scheme.
I could be reading it wrong (and projecting my own murky desires onto other people .) anons might have just meant they wanted an end to neurotic possessiveness.
How would communism stop some guy from shooting a bunch of minorities
It won't, It will just make the incentive to do so a hell of a lot lower.
The only feminism that's still politically active in the modern 1st-world, 3rd-wave feminazis. As opposed to 1st/2nd-wave, which resides in the same historical dustbin of established legal code as slavery or child labor abolition.
It would remove capitalist justifications (theft, eviction, trespassing, etc.) for shooting all kinds of people, that provide convenient excuses to people that want to shoot minorities.
How would feminism do that? We cannot stop random dickheads from doing terrorist acts. We just can arm the so called "minorities" (notice the actual dehumanizing language spewed by you idpollers) and they have to defend themselves.
Guns for everyone, regardless of spooked identities.
Why do leftist hate feminism I thought feminism was a liberal philosophy
1) Leftists are not liberals.
2) Leftists don't hate feminists, Zig Forums pretending to be leftists do.
stfu you reddit rapefugee and go back to >>>/r/socialism if you want to white knight so hard
Oh yeah, it's full of more splits than the trots, but they all draw upon the same theory. The supposed distinction between socialist feminists and bourgeois feminists is little more than a disagreement over intersectionality. The bourgeois feminists acknowledge class and find capitalism to be every bit as problematic as the socialist feminists do, but they regard class and capital as just another pair of axes of oppression instead of the material base of society. In practice, both socialist and bourgeois feminists write the same prescription for society: petition bourgeois politicians to pass laws that make "male privilege" less of a privilege. Just another flavor of impotent, misguided, and divisive reformism.
No true Scotsman
The bunch of minorities also have guns, so if some guy wants to successfully shoot them he'll probably need a similar number of other some guys.
All mainstream branches of feminism are anti-male and have been since at least the 80s. I dislike the fact that they are anti-male.
Now stop pretending to be dumb. Obviously when we say "feminism" we aren't talking about that tiny irrelevant minority of feminists who support equality.
True leftism is about economic equality. It stands to reason that people who support economic equality would also support gender equality, which requires us to oppose an anti-equality movement like feminism.
Literally everybody who doesn't hate men hates feminists.
and you can fuck off back to Zig Forums if you want to be "le edgy troll XD"
No, don't do that. That's bullshit, and you know it. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to call feminism bullshit without playing that us-or-them team shit.
The most mainstream branch of feminism is just the idea that feminism is the word for gender equality without any further theory whatsoever. You know, the people who say "I'm a feminist" and think that alone makes them moral and progressive.
I'm talking about most of them too. You can't balance an equation if you only look at one side. Feminism at its most common/basic concept is fundamentally flawed.
No it isn't. Read Critique of the Gotha Programme. "Equality" in economic terms is just a buzzword. The point is to abolish class and for libertarians/anarchists also to abolish hierarchy generally. That is not the same thing as equality.
Equality isn't the point in gender issues either. The point is liberty. Gender roles restrict the freedom of people no matter their gender. The hierarchy of one gender over another is primarily an illusion hiding the hierarchy of the spooky gender roles over everybody. Abolishing gender roles won't make people equal. It will free each of us to be individuals without prescribed "right" ways to be.
Please tell me you're false flagging because this is obviously false and needlessly inflammatory. Most people don't think of feminism beyond being aware of the activism. It's like vegetarians or something to most people.
Are you all serious? The whole point of being a leftist is to get rid of hierarchy and achieve egalitarianism. Shunning out feminism and containing it to one thread shows that you’re all ignoring the point of leftist thought. Feminism breaks gender inequality, which is an obstacle of class conciseness. Embrace feminism! Feminists Initiative in Sweden is a great leftist party for example. There’s so much sexism especially within our ranks
Getting rid of hierarchy and achieving egalitarianism is not the same thing. Read the middle chunk of my post here
Getting rid of hierarchy is not necessarily the goal of feminism, and the versions of feminism with that goal are not good ways of doing that. Read
The thread was posted by someone who supports feminism because they were mad at its critics who responded to this post
Being against something isn't the same as effectively combating it, and equality is not the point. The point is to get rid of gender roles that determine how people are allowed to be.
Telling people that men are oppressors or that women are trying to become oppressors is more of a distraction from class consciousness than gender roles by themselves but whatever.
Yeah that's not how discourse works bud.
Ah yes the "we want equal wages" instead of "abolish the wage system" variety of leftism. feministisktinitiativ.se
I don't think Socalism needs feminism at all. It's like trying to mix water and oil together. It just won't work.
And most of these "feminazis" ruin feminism for a lot of people, and these same feminazis act like fascists when someone honestly disagrees with their extremely Misandrists views.
And I honestly want men and women working together. Not tear each other down like rabid animals fighting for who is better than who. It's just stupid.
Please screw off with that crap.
Gender roles are also pretty dumb and cliche.
Socialism does not "need" feminism, since it already contains it in itself. If you are a socialist, you are also a feminist.
What does Zig Forums think of artificial wombs and sexdolls/sexbots?
That's not an economic issue/working class issue, so it's irrelevant to us.
If it makes people happy I'm cool with it.
Socialism contains the feminist motte that women receive the same treatment as men in regards to their labor and social standing. It does not contain the feminist bailey that is patently absurd feminist theory.
Feminism is fascist and such reactionary as liberal agenda want. Is a troyan horse for the left. If you want to know how reply to their awful propaganda anti-left, just read on the jew question.
As long as, the labor can be possible acording her biologic capacities, womas are less smart and srtonger than mans so…