How long do you guys think Capitalism will last? I give it three to eight decades.
As long as the profit rate can be resuscitated by destruction of dead capital. With the prospect of nuclear annihilation behind any third world war, I'd say capitalism's path out of its current long depression is very limited.
three to eight decades.
lets be real and change 'decades' for 'centuries'
At this trajectory we'll be dead in one century or so
This. Tick tock.
Cockshott has a good video on this particular phenomenon, whilst he doesn't explicitly mention war, you can see by implication of the formula for the accumulation cycle of capital by Kalecki that reducing capital (ie destroying it) increases purchase orders ie capital investments.
I = m(L + A) - nK
Where I is the number of investment orders and K is extant capital, watch the video for the rest.
Falling rate of profit can be mitigated by another world war, or two. Alternatively capitalists can switch to rent-seeking instead of capital accumulation. Modern incarnations like Netflix already function in that way, late stage capitalism is mostly rent-seeking.
Art the current rate of acceleration we can observe the last one hundred years it's very unlikely that it will be more than a century. Capitalism develops much more rapidly than feudalism, feudalism in decay still needed three centuries to finally break down because development was much slower than in capitalism.
As long as human life is possible on this planet. It won't last more than five more decades.
If you kill all boomer faggots, chances are it will collapse in 5 decades. Otherwise, until the earth becomes the new venus via climate change.
Capitalism will fall when Socdem Female of Colour® comes to power
Alternatively capitalists can switch to rent-seeking instead of capital accumulation.
Rent seeking is incredibly politically destabilizing. It causes stagnate wages and higher costs of living, which create groups like the Yellow Vests. Also it’s much harder to justify the existence of capitalists in rent-seeking. As can be seen already, right-wingers are calling for nationalization of Facebook. They would never call for this for a traditional firm.
But, uh, doesn't capitalism naturally give way to socialism as dialectical materialism accrues towards post-scarcity? How do you know we're not living under communism right rn (right now) now? Who said there was going to be a sharp dividing line? Maybe socialism already happened a long time ago and we're now moving into post-socialism identity politics?
Maybe socialism already happened a long time ago and we're now moving into post-socialism identity politics?
I know papyrus is a forbidden technology but please read a book nigger
having anything to do with socialism whatsoever
Socialism, like capitalism, is an economic system, and economies are how people cope with scarcity. If capitalists exist, it's capitalism. If capitalists don't exist, it may be socialism.
Really depends on how fast China is catching up.
Turns out capitalism is only fun when you are winning. The ones sticking to the rules are the ones profiting from it the most.
And now that China is catching up, free market ain't so fly anymore and even the neolibs on reddit defend the bending of rules specifically to hurt China.
And in general the anti-Chinese sentiments are rising. Still not as bad as Russia, but it gets increasingly so. Basically they want the best of both world, profits from China and denying China profits at the same time.
I don't believe it'll survive the final result of climate change.
Now I know why people are moving against Russia.
The entire geopolitical meta of the last 150 years was to deny Russia a warm water port.
Now after streaks of setback it turns out that all Russia needs to do is just wait and auto-win.
But can you actually prove that Marx's economic predictions for Kapital haven't already come true? Not necessarily his policy preferences which is what you orthoxes autistically focus on, but his actual work as an economist.
Dialectical materialism and technocratic production became so immense that every illegal immigrant has a dodge challenger, iPhone, and a house from their job at a restaurant.
There is no difference between capitalism and socialism in anything but desired policy on getting niggers their iphones.
Are there still capitalists? Yes? Then it's capitalism.
muh nonessential luxuries
Not really that enjoyable when you're too busy being cold and starving
You mean a rented apartment shared with several other families
Europe's more crowded than USA, but in USA 210 million of the 350 million people live in single family houses, of which there are 80 million, in addition to 50 million other dwellings (such as apartment buildings), including 7 million high occupancy apartment buildings of 50+ units. In other words, that's 350 million housing units right there.
What's wrong with apartments, anyway? Weren't commies really fond of concrete tenement buildings?
Actually I must be reading these statistics for apartments wrong. It must just be 7 million total apartment units, categorized as '50+ unit apartments.' Even with the 30-35 million illegals and 70% occupancy rate the previous figures would be way too high.
But there's 132 million livable dwellings. At about 3 people per dwelling for a total capacity of ~400m in a country of ~360m. No overcrowding.
Sorry for the statistics autism, I just got curious about the answer.
Ha I guess the Pan-Indian dream will become a reality with Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Nepal becoming desolate wastelands, the British didn't count on that happening clearly.
I've been to Poland, the commie blocks there are of a much better standard than the equivalent apartment blocks here.
That and even for those people who lived in houses, their homes were noticeably bigger than the typical homes in the UK.
every illegal immigrant has a dodge challenger, iPhone, and a house from their job at a restaurant.
Are there still capitalists? Yes? Then it's capitalism.
Slow down user. Merchant capitalists and finance capitalists have been around through most of human history. It's the industrial capitalist dominating production that delineates capitalism from other economic systems.
Do you even have a job and live independently? What do you think the MEDIAN salary is for a typical worker of your age? You sound out of touch, if you think cheap frivolous gadgets are indicators of wealth, which is even more of a grotesque thing to say if we're talking about 3rd world workers who can't afford private heath care.
It's the commodity form in relation to labour and capital itself actually, which can exist independently of industrial capitalists even if industrialisation is associated with it.
You seem confused over what an industrial capitalist is. Industrial capitalists spend money on means of production and wages, workers make a commodity, and then the capitalist sells that commodity for more than they started with. It's this relationship to production that distinguishes capitalism from economic systems that came before and will come after it. Money-lending capitalists and merchant capitalists may very well continue to exist.
muh private property prevents anyone from actually living in it
Yes, and? Capitalism is entirely built on artificial scarcity.
Technically true, but not particularly relevant to my point, since we're talking about the current/future era, not the past. Following capitalism will be socialism or barbarism, not a regression back to feudalism.
Andrew Kliman disputes the empirical evidence for that stagnating wages graph.
What about intellectual property and mass media or am I just misinterpreting industry as only covering physical commodities?
…as the hegemonic mode of production?
Uh maybe a few decades, but porky's running out of stuff to exploit and communist sentiment is coming back. Depending on how long the bubbles and speculation can keep up who knows. Collapse could start this year. It'll be a while before the fascist/neoliberal attempts at salvaging the system crumble entirely (depending on how poorly managed they are and how much resistance there is), maybe it adds a decade, maybe it adds a few months. This is something we actually could have an effect on.
…as a major force in geopolitics
This is going to depend on how long before the US empire falls. There will be pockets of capitalism in some places where the capitalist class already has a lot of power. It sounds dumb to say this but we're liable to see some weird neofeudal city state situations in places like Silicon Valley and Disney world. If trade infrastructure breaks down cities are going to see a huge population collapse and may resort to raiding the countryside and trying to conquer farming territory using militarized police (in countries that have those). How much we have this kind of bizarre political situation vs bottom-up reorganizing is going to relate directly to how well organized people already are at the local level, and what kind of resistance people are capable of at the small to mid scale. Large scale institutions are going to be failing left and right because without a functioning capitalist economy they have nothing to buy the loyalty of the constituent regions. Places like the US and EU will balkanize almost overnight. Some places will find a version of capitalism that works for them and can be sustained for decades, maybe centuries, if nobody stops them. Because of the need for growth in capitalism, these places will be expansionist.
as the ruling system in some part of the world
Capitalism will bring any region into direct conflict with a socialist majority, and unless suppressed in the way the DPRK allegedly is, the people will know there's a better option. Global communism will become a mission and how quickly it comes will likely be a priority to socialists around the world.
Kliman's "argument" is the same asinine observation the likes of Heritage and CATO have used "against" that graph, that different deflators are used for labor (consumer goods and services) and capital (industrial feedstocks). No shit!
Why must good things like this be ruined by shoehorning in some liberal anti-racism?
It's not that capitalism discriminates arbitrarily (liberal idealism), but that it stunts the moral and intellectual development of everybody as they grow up, and as a consequence the leading cause of death for black men ages 15-34 is murder. Literally. And not by the police either. Other groups die in car accidents or of diseases, but young black men murder eachother. The problem is the prevalence of murder, not that murder is punished.
Yeah, I cringe'd a bit at that part, too. Not so much for its pointing out that incarceration is racially disproportionate (it absolutely is driven by racism to a substantial degree, regardless of the fact that the plurality of inmates are still poor whites), but for the implication that the solution is racial grievance mongering. As opposed to attacking corruption in the justice system itself in a largely race-agnostic way which aside from gaining the political support of poor whites would, of course, disproportionately benefit racial minorities.
One thing everyone seems to forget is that burgerstan's absurd incarceration rate isn't just unprecedented among developed nations, but unprecedented for the country itself, stemming almost entirely from a handful of Reagan-era laws on private prisons and looser trials, foremost among them the Sentencing Reform Act.
It's true that capitalists are relying more and more on this, and it's pissing people off. Nobody likes landlords.
- If you mean "private property" then it has at least another century if not two before enough shit goes down where everyone voluntarily communizes their own property into coops for their own safety/survival due to climate change (including climate change caused by war aka radioactive fallout)
- If you mean "profit" then 50 years at best, already companies are hitting the ends of their ability to profit. Within companies most investors hate capital expenses (read: investments that generate more money) with such a passion that most companies cannot afford them, leading to a downward spiral of austerity and cost cutting that overall reduces individual peoples' ability to prosper. In Europe they're already using negative interest rates as a pathetic attempt to require companies to make profits, meanwhile America has to turn to trade taxes (tariffs) to try and rebuild their consumer credit base which profits are derived from. This is capitalism's current ongoing crisis right now. Related to this is the general realization by economists that rate of wealth accumulation > rate of economic growth
- If you mean the "globalist neoliberal market economy" then it's got maybe 10 years. Already the US is withdrawing from the system to protect it's own industries, a move that destroys China's economy which itself was already having major issues with profitability. Meanwhile potential sanctions on Europe over Russian oil will probably lead to a similar thing happening to the EU as well, which itself was also having problems with profitability.
- If you mean "globalist consensus" then it's got maybe 5 years, Trump has already done enough damage to it with his trade war and INFT withdrawal. Once New START dies in 2021 the US and Russia will start a new nuclear arms race that will probably lead to new nuclear testing and proliferation amongst smaller countries. End result is a considerably more fearful world by 2024, and one that will be dominated by who has the most nukes where.
Overall it's all going to fall apart. People are waking up to the fake capitalist dream, because the reality is that capitalism has completely spent itself as Marx predicted. As it burns itself down, expect things to get much more violent for example a three-way conflict between Pakistan, India and China over water and borders or the US going full fash to deal with a new global Dust Bowl.
yall be sorry when capitalism is gone, its just going to get replaced by an even worse thing
we might actually be sliding towards technocratic feudalism and here are my arguments for it:
tech people are already buying up all the prime real estate in all the best cities, raising the cost of living so high that only they can pay it and everyone else is essentially moving out of the good parts of these cities into the slums of irrelevancy and unemployment
tech people already run all the drone programs, and drone strikes are essentially what most of the military operations even are
tech people already run the economic sector, no one works with a hammer or a sickle anymore, they automated mining, agriculture, one gps navigated tractor-combine megavehicle essentially does the work of a million farmers today, they have actual aircraft spraying miles of land
when it comes to social influence, passing the laws, voting, journalism, art etc, they already have algorithms and data mining, they already hear everything you say and know everywhere you went via cellphones, they can pass laws and candidates, tailor news for you, make you believe what they want you to believe etc
they already colonized and monopolized economy, military and society in their iron grip
a torch and pitchfork can raise up, only to get massacred by heat seeking missile carrying helicopter gunship, one of which is enough to wipe out the entire civilian population of a town, and the only way to take it out is with a french style exocet missile, one of which costs 900.000$ and anyone who knows how to make one is already on their side anyway already
basically learn a marketable skill and enjoy the market while you can, enjoy the short period of time you have as a self employed welder, electrician or a plumber (those make more cash than majority of uni educated population right now) because soon enough even that is going to go away
start a new nuclear arms race
That was started by Obama's proposal to spend $1 trillion upgrading existing weapons, and it was never really a race to begin with. The US has 1500 nuclear weapons and it really only needs ~20 to serve as effective deterrence. The nuclear arms "race" is all about placating a nuclear-industrial complex.
Also ballistic missiles are pure porkbarrel spending in an age dominated by submarines. All they do is provide a land target in the event of nuclear exchange.
the reality is that capitalism has completely spent itself as Marx predicted
Well, not entirely. Marx thought that finance capital would be tamed by industrial capital to do its bidding, not rise to control the state.
I know both sides have denied it to this day, but weren't a lot of nukes, both tactical scale and some strategic scale weapons, smuggled by spies and planted in major enemy population centers over the decades for remote detonation?
Technology requires resources and resources are being depleted. Nothing "tech" will be possible in the future.
ask me how i know you dont have a phd in metallurgy, material sciences or chemistry
resources are renewable bruv, old stuff just gets recycled into the new stuff
when you spend stuff, you just get more of it from the sun
its even becoming possible to mine near earth asteroids with drones when you dont have trillion years of time to wait for the new rare and precious metals, these asteroids are so full of them there's more of these metals in them than there is on this planet
basically you are just being stupid
I think the more obvious defense of the technofascism warning post, is the obvious point that the average value of individual human life under such a regime would be much lower, so any lack of resources would readily be compensated for with mass culling by Overlord Bezos.
It's the same conclusion though. Finance killed industry, but in doing so gravely harmed itself because industry creates surplus aka profit. It's the economic equivalent of chopping off both your hands so you can't masturbate. It's not sustainable, and it's finally coming down after ten years on life support.
The UK's current irrelevance in global affairs is proof of it. British bankers killed British industry and broke the back of British labor, only to find themselves with a completely nonfunctional economy that they cannot profit from as there is no surplus left. Austerity is fine when it happens to proles, it's a disaster when capitalists are forced to turn on each other as the UK is having to contend with. Carillion's bankruptcy was just the start and will show what is to come, as all the government contractors go belly up services (like healthcare) simply end and people get poorer, even rich people who used to be managers at those companies. In the end workers get upset and vote to nationalize production, either for a socialist or nationalist state. End result is that capitalism ceases to exist, or is at least dealt a mortal blow.
Again the 2008 financial crisis was the tipping point, that was the last time bankers could have salvaged their system enough to prevent a total collapse. They did not and so here we are on the cusp of another global financial disaster that will leave the most finance-based economies ruined.
The decline already started
all stocks are going to zero
Stalk Market = economy
Exept cuckshot is just a overrated celeb cathering to dumb retards just pulling shit out of this ass that has no credence or value because his models never turned out true, without cherrypicking tiny samples, making shitlost ofarbitrary selfserving assumptions whats muh socialsimsms and whats muh capitalism or pick whatever buzzwords of the decade you like to use and adjusting his magic variables (that make his whole pseudointellectual bullshit he dares to call a theory worthless) until his models based on his "theory" produce numbers that fit reality for a short period of time and of course cant ever be repeated without adjusting his magic factors.
Who cares what that faggot has to say?
Cockshott, unlike you has published books. He’s not a psuedointillectual.
until his models based on his "theory" produce numbers that fit reality for a short period of time and of course cant ever be repeated without adjusting his magic factors.
sometimes you have to adjust formulas
As far as the car can drive without its fuel.
until we all die