What does Zig Forums think of Bernie running for 2020?
Bernie Sanders 2020 run discussion thread
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Tulsi is much better foreign-policy wise but it doesn't matter since both are going to get cucked out of the nomination by the DNC again so they can run a neolib like Harris. If I was Amerikkkan I'd vote Trump just that so the emprie continues to get destabilized and more amerikkkans end up dying.
Electoralism is a dead end.
Some people have to learn the hard way.
And some will never learn.
Not expecting anything out of it but I will critically vote for Bernie Sanders. Doesn't really cost me much except an evening or two and he is the farthest left candidate running. Although I am still furious with how he caved to the liberals in the democratic primary and campaigned for Hillary Clinton among other things. And obviously his policies are not Marxist in any way, but it would be preferable to Trump again (which is what we'll definitely get with any other candidate besides possibly Tulsi if she can get enough name recognition in the next year). Plus he basically revived Marxism in the US by forcing people to look into socialism for themselves.
He served his purpose in 2016 (reviving the reputation of the word "socialism"), now he needs to fuck off. Cowards who don't challenge election fraud and prop up dangerous xenophobic conspiracy theories when the Doomsday Clock is as clock to midnight as the early '50s don't deserve any support.
See the Greens and the many other socialist parties in the US.
Tulsi still supports arming Ukraine
*the farthest left candidate who has a chance of winning* FTFY
He's gonna get drummed out even faster than last time for "throwing" 2016 to Trump. Can't beat the woke POC/slay kween combo. The highlight will be the chapotista goons melting down when AOC inevitably endorses Harris or Warren.
Too white, male, and old. Sad!
This is what I'm looking forward to the least. Ideally they would simply leave the field, but what's probably going to happen is Sanders passive-aggressively undermining them through leftward policy proposals that they halfheartedly adopt while their partisans shriek about what a brocialist shitlord he is in the background.
It's a shame Sanders isn't aggressive enough to bulldoze the Justice Democrats over their weaksauce stances, because dealing with them nicely is gonna make for a looong slog.
I reckon he would be the most likely to get american workers reforms that will improve their conditions, not that reforming capitalism is necessarily good nor that 'most likely' is particularly likely in this situation.
He's for social democracy at home and capitalist imperialism for the Global South, buying off the American working class with imperialist spoils. Left-wing of capital.
t. J Sakai
Are you people still assblasted over Kosovo?
If it's just Sanders' masochistic Russiagate shilling, I seriously doubt he will continue it into actually aggravating tensions with Russia once in office.
She also has direct ties to Hindu supremacists in India and voted to sanction Venezuela. The only good thing about her foreign policy is not supporting regime change in Syria.
I kind of wanted Bernie to be President in 2020, but now I'm a little unsure.
Do you think they won't cheat him again? At least other candidates have the balls to demand recounts.
Sorry, I meant the farthest left running with a chance in this backwards ass country.
It's a waste of time, he will get his nomination stolen again.
So who is better overall with regard to foreign policy? Sanders or Gabbard?
I think his cult are setting themselves up for massive disappointment.
They are both worse.
Source? I need to spread this around if true.
Its almost time!
Hoping the DNC makes even more fools of themselves over him
If I was Sakai, I would deny that a white working class even exists in the US. I do not.
What makes you so sure he won't?
There is no bourgeois politician in the US that has a consistent anti-imperialist stance. Bernie shills Russiagate and is hostile to Venezulea. AOC congratulated McCain. Tulsi Gabbard is only interested in Syria and is a hawk against Russia and Venezuela, plus a Modi shill. Ilhan Omar told Abrams "nobody disputes" that the US wants to bring democracy to Venezuela and wants a "humanitarian" intervention and has tweeted "nobody supports Maduro".
Ironically enough the most consistent anti-imperialist stances come from alternative Republicans like Tucker Carlson. You are more likely to find him to shill for zero intervention than anybody who runs on the list to the Dems. Jill Stein also comes to mind, or even fucking Gary Johnson although these are complete mystery boxes as to how their policy would look if they got any federal representation.
The working class has no borders and as long as the SocDem of the month thinks imperialism is okay as long as we get healthcare, I'll continue to consider them an enemy of the working class.
Because he has no legislative history of backing Russia bearbaiting, nuclear brinksmanship, and other such moronity.
Again, just to be absolutely clear, I agree his shilling Russiagate is nonsensical and retarded, but your characterization of his stance on Venezuela is unfair. It's essentially identical to Zig Forums's stance of "Maduro is a fumbling moron, it's nothing we have any business meddling with, especially by force:
Granted as of today she says that America shouldn't intervene in Venezuela but that means little if the sanctions remain in place. Plenty of libs think that economic terrorism is somehow different from other types of intervention. I'm still waiting for any political to come out sand say that sanctions are bad.
typical succdem who cares standard damage control
register democrat (online 30 sec)
vote in the primary (mail ballot arrives at house 30 sec to fill out)
vote democrat in general (mail ballot arrives at house 30 sec to fill out)
agitate for direct action and organize your community
really? thats cool maybe they will run together or one of them get it and not a cop or a liberal
Well let's check his press release, shan't we?
Bourgeoisie and white upper middle-class right wingers who burn protesters in the streets, launch assassination attempts against Maduro, have Pinochet LARPers launch a helictoper attack against the Supreme Court = "civil society"
It's literally in the Venezuelan constitution to have a constitutional assembly ruling over the National Assembly. Whoever wrote this clearly hasn't read the Venezuelan constitution
"Many" = the US State Department. See:
No mentioning of the falling oil price, the overreliance on oil, and capitalist sabotage, see here:
Therefore the writer sees the only causation between Maduro being le ebul socialist dictator and the economy
Dogwhistle for "anything but the PSUV". If he said the same shit for Syria with praise for the FSA, would you still agree with him?
No words of opposition violence, condemning of grassroot militias like the Collectivos.
So he is in favour of the sanctions, which is condemned as a type of "21st century siege warfare" by the UN, but he just doesn't want a Contra tier fascist uprising. Bernie Sanders is a capitalist imperialist.
American Greens are officially anti-capitalist eco-socialists now, fam.
Nice breakdown user, fuck Bernie.
That's an awful lot of assumptions. About the only concrete point is his not having explicitly condemned the sanctions, as for instance Ilhan Omar did.
To be fair the greens have a history of being pointless hippies. They only just became anti-capitalist in like 2016 or something.
A "history" that is in many ways manufactured by corporate media propaganda.
Ditto. Accelerationism FTW.
Sanders winning the election would push the Progressive International. Thereby, DiEM25 becomes an interesting asset now :^) Entryists, prepare your bets! Greens are what Sanders appeals to be but he is just another hypocritical imposter who is too convenient to sacrifice his own living standard.
Maybe first some progressive leftist anti-establishment president has to disappoint, so people understand that there is only one solution. You have to understand that president elections in the USA is a multi-billion dollar industry (last was ~6.5B$).
We had that with Obama, who in the context of 2008 was out of left field. What's more important than seeing another "far left" politician get elected is that the worker's movement prove itself able to do something for the people that the politicians asking for your vote can't or won't do. We're not going to be able to do that canvassing for bernie or being the SIDF.
And about half of eligible voters didn't show up.
How was Obama a progressive leftist anti-establishment president? He was a regressive centrist pro-establishement president who pushed and still pushes exceptionalism like noone else and denied that there is a permanent elite:
Sanders being corrupted by the DNC in 2016 highlights his anti-establishment character whereas Obama has a typical career which gives the impression that he was "designed" to be president.
He was running to the left of Hillary Clinton, which in the context of 2008's democratic primary and general election puts him as the "progressive leftist anti-establishment" candidate.There's actually a lot of parallels between him and Sanders, which should give you an idea of what a Sanders presidency would actually look like and effects of it. If you don't believe me I'll see you in 2032 when people will be saying AOC is the progressive leftist anti-establishment candidate who will lead us to the promised land or disappoint people to the point they will revolt.
I think Obama largely disillusioned people against vague platitudes. Sanders as president may disillusion people against reformists with actual specific policy suggestions, which is the major difference here.
No he wasn't. He was running as Chocolate Jesus who would cleanse Amerikkka of her racial sins - and from that the Left projected whatever they wanted into his vague, mealy-mouthed pronouncements about Hope™ and Change™.
It's always hilarious talking to Bernie supporters about what drove them away from liberalism, it's invariably due to disillusionment with Obama
lmao fuck off O'bomber never had a good track record and considered himself to be a moderate reaganite.
lolno, Dennis Kucinich was the Bernie analog if anyone in 2008. Obama was a corporate shithead from the start of his political career and those who were familiar with him in Chicago predicted how his presidency would play out.
This. The only reason I supported Obama over Clinton in 2008 was because the man's positions were so completely unknown, so I assumed there was a faint possibility he might not push stuff like NAFTA. Needless to say, that gamble didn't pay off.
How old is he? From the looks of it, the stress of being president of a big ass country will kill him for sure
His unflinching support for American empire is extremely hard to stomach. I want him to rally the working class, radicalize liberals, and then lose the primary so that he doesn't cripple the nascent American left with electoralism.
America is fucked. Until the electoral system is changed completely , the game will continue. Even if Bernie is elected. He will never get congressional support. It's a waste of time.
I'm hoping Trump does something stupid and launches a nuke at someone, so that we can get nuked. Also, being black in this country is mindnumbing and I want to leave.
Inb4 racist posts.
It will be interesting observing how many of my DSA peers fall back in line for the Democratic Party to support Sanders.
Yeah, Sanders getting fucked over in the last presidential primaries really was the best possible outcome for actual socialists.
Son, I am disappoint.
Survival is optional.
Assuming he becomes President, he will have the entire House against him.
The US will become unruleable, so either the electorate have to change the president or all senators and representatives from both the GOP and the DNC
and Senate, so basically the entire Congress
Worthless. If you're american don't even bother voting for him (or anyone). If you insist so much on voting, vote either Green or Libertarian. And I suppose sure you can vote Trump if you're an accelerationist but tbh I don't think accelerationism works but who gives a fuck.
Just the thought of those two years of political carnage until the midterms render utter apocalypse makes me giddy
I see what you mean. These "black communities" are nothing but an attempt to organise them as tribes.
This way the parties only need to bribe the chieftains and shamans aka the "black community leaders" to sway an entire voting block to their favour and don't dare to swim against the storm in any form or way.
Obama's only relative directly was up in the clouds with lofty and empty rhetoric.
Yes he was fam, I was there. Obama was the "progressive leftist anti-establishment president" by virtue of not being an open neocon like Clinton.
If they're supporting Bernie, or any candidate, they still fucking with liberalism.
Bernie's track record is liberalism and supporting burger wars, so he's not as far from Obama as some of you would like to believe. Read bookchin and watch parenti.
In stated policy yeah, but in terms of support and mobilization Sanders had more in common with Obama. If he gets elected he's going to sell out as the roses tend to do while getting defended by Jacobin and supposed radicals similar to how the magacucks ride Trump's dick despite him fucking up every promise he made.
lmao, get rekt son
Clinton was the establishment, if anything Obama's win was what influenced the dems to rig the primary in her favor to prevent losing to an unknown contender who had youth support and brought people into the party. Moreover, the "anti-establishment" caving almost immediately to establishment politics can be viewed if not in Obama then in Trump and AOC, which tells us that the reality of politics will not allow us to vote ourselves to socialism and the supposedly socialist politicians will not be our guys.
True, though to be fair Trump's just a Boomercon idiot and AOC is a shameless striver.
To be fair Trump's an idiot that
Fuck, apologies for that formatting
Every person who thinks the United States or the us dollar is a thing and does everything they can to "work within the system" IS THE FUCKING SYSTEM.
Presidents are puppets and are chosen on an island. Its been proven countless times that elections can be hacked, and some girl literally went to prison for leaking Intel showing the election was hacked.
Regardless, I will reluctantly support Bernie and all his followers to combine my force with their force and hopefully filter out some of the stupid narcissism in American socialists.
I don't think people really understand that Obama was an evil person , but he did a lot of the ground work and I'm sure millions of lives were saved as a result or his actions. Millions were also killed or ruined as a result of his actions, mainly him being a bitch and "playing ball", but I'd choose the abusive parent who feeds me sometimes over the one who leaves me to die in every scenario.
The most important thing for this operation succeeding is not engaging with the psychopaths no matter how tempting it gets. Your ego will be harmed, and there will be situations where you will be surrounded by the human equivalent of wolves . The moment somebody drops their respectful tone and body language at you suggesting, say, (insert anything) is a scam, they have no interest in a constructive political debate and are feeding on you to boost their ego. At this point walk away and never go never them again.
There are people with empathy who realize we are literally slaves. It's no coincidence that it's hard for you to find them. In the mean time avoid wasting time, and attempt to convert others through planting seeds. Explain the financial motivations behind war. Ask if they are in a car accident , can somebody with a different opinion refuse to treat them? Talk about covering a shift for somebody who wants to see their daughter be born. If things escalate and you really need the last word, bring up how society is based on collaboration , people want the system that works the best for most people, yet they should consent to giving all their power to somebody who admits they don't care about anyone but themselves?
Ive watched literal military libertarians turn into compassionate people who truly want nobody to be a slave. Quit wasting time on black pilled bullshit and try something new.
This image is representative of how - if ever - socialism will go down in the United States. Ignoring the individuals within it, it is the possible foreshadowing of how and why America will ever adopt socialism.
Other Americans identify capitalism with patriotism. However, as capitalist crisis continues to further aggravate social problems within the United States - decline in literacy, worsening working conditions, intensification of the opioid crisis, higher influx of refugees, climate change - the American population will desperately clamour for a solution.
If the solution is not and hopefully is not fascism, then the only meaningful possibility is socialism.
It is sometimes oversimplfied that Ho Chi Minh was a nationalist first and a communist second. This is the dynamic that Ameibol seeks to play to. Socialist states have provided real solutions to problems that historically faced peoples of the world - Industrialisation for the USSR and Mao's community-based drug therapy that weaned China off of opium. HCM became a socialist as he wished to liberate his nation from French colonialism and was inspired by the American Founding Fathers in Vietnam's own declaration of independence.
Thus the dominant task of American socialists ought to be identifying patriotism with socialism. Only through socialism can America be free of opioids, only through socialism can America be free of the Israel lobby and only through socialism can America reindustrialise on its own terms, free from cheap Dengist-revisionist goods.
"Only socialism can save America and only America can perfect socialism." just as America has perfected capitalism.
This is == AMERIBOL ==.
While Bernie certainly is not on the same level as Obummer (the latter was backed by a faction of Wall Street from the beginning and never got as smeared as Bernie who the media sometimes calls antisemitic, "brocialist" or calls him a dirty commie) there is literally no proof that he will just turn out another Trump, even if he is less decadent and more principled than Trump. Plus the fact that Bernie is now really old and gave up on a lot of his more principled stances he had during his prime. At this point even Gabbard would probably be a better candidate.
I don't think it is impossible to vote yourself to socialism, but not in the American political system.
Has AOC ever released the announced statement about Vuvuzela? Max Blumenthal asked her about it and she said her team will release something.
I'm uncertain if this is self deprecating or made by a right winger.
Seen this on lefty subreddits. They're poking fun at reformists who pretend to be radical on the electoral off-season.
Never ever trust a social democrat
Fuck them all. Sanders is a multi-millionaire elite who does not give a shit about you
People in the USA have plenty of opportunity to vote for actual socialists but they are so brainwashed that they will vote for this elite cunt to "not throw their vote away."
I constantly feel this pull between supporting Sanders and supporting full Trump acceleration.
All my half-assed historical analysis says that the US is repeating Germany's mistakes and that we are going to swing liberal->conservative->socdem->fascist.
Damage control to improve the material conditions of marginalized individuals will create more liberal middle class people that want to defend capitalism and socdem bernie platforms that don't actually tackle the problem of capital itself will only amplify these differences priming a stronger counter reaction. The percentage of people who will want to defend their newly gifted neoliberal rights and comforts will be higher than those who want to continue extending those rights to others in some kind of pan-neoliberal socdem utopia.
By taking half measures we are playing with the public consciousnesses ability to remember what happened last election cycle and when these half measures fail to account for the inherent contradictions of capitalism a more intelligent, ruthless version of Trump with actual fascist intentions will rise to the forefront.
Well it depends on what you want, like if you're anti imperialist I'd honestly recommend going for Trump, not because of his fabled anti interventionism but because he's done a lot of damage to the US hegemony already just through sheer incompetence. It very well may not last another 4 years of him. However if you want more intimidate short term benefits to yourself I'd go with Bernie, the problem with that is the DNC very well could just cheat Bernie again and hand it over to Kamala or someone else so personally I am just not going to vote.
He's not going to come close to winning the nomination. Which is a shame because he's the only hope actual leftists in America have. But Democrats will run another feminist liberal and Trump will be re-elected
It doesn't really matter If Bernie is hiding his powerlevel or not: he's effectively expanding the overton window towards the left, and we socialists should take advantage of it to spread anticapitalist consciousness in his movement.
You want to vote for a candidate who will make college free and give you access to healthcare? Great, go for it. But be aware that the monster that has brought us to this situation will keep working whoever you put in power. That monster is the dynamics of capitalism, and as long as we're thrown into the fighting pit that is the labor market, it doesn't matter how fucking cheap college is, some people are always going to get flushed down the toilet. Go and get free universal healthcare, landlords will take advantage of your increased income and raise the rents. Go and build your coop, but the corporations you'll be competing against will outsource their production to Pakistan and force you to reduce your own salary.
It isn't BAD to work towards those goals, they even improve the material conditions of the working class, which allows them to be less afraid to defend their rights. But as long as the monster isn't buried, the fight will never end, because it'll simply look for new ways to extract your surplus out of you.
We tariff'd our way out of that during our victory over the prior Gilded Age, and we can do it again.
No we didn't.
Are you attempting to pretend history didn't happen? Predicting the most popular dodge, look at that graph, and notice the drop in trade volume happened well before the World Wars. Union agitation pushed strong tariffs into place, playing a key role in tightening up the labor market.
Trade volume declined as capital was diverted from production to speculative ventures, which was the trigger that set off the Great Depression. Your silly narrative that union-driven protectionism ended the so-called Guilded Age is a fairy tale.
I think it's too cool. Sanders can run fast. He's gonna run fast! Faster faster faster, like sonic X!
Bernie is already throwing away his chances by being retarded.
Why are the Democratic and Republican parties so far away on that chart? They both have the same agenda.
He's still firmly opposed to military intervention or other backing of oppositional forces, even if he sadly hasn't condemned the sanctions. I agree that condemning violence on Venezuela's part without mentioning the violent (and other criminal acts, such as smuggling, dumping, and lockouts) behavior of most of its "victims" is retarded.
It's meant to be more a map of relative partisanship under the successive "party systems" making up the USA's political history, than an absolute characterization of policy positions. Also, it's obviously made by quasi-lolbert "enlightened centrist" redditards.
How in the blue fuck does anyone fall for this bullshit?
Yea after this new Venezuela tweet, I'm not so sure anymore. If he doesn't retract that statement, I'm almost certainly not going to vote for him.
Democratically. I think Sanders has this one easily. So, so easily. Now if they let him run is another thing. But he is overwhelmingly popular now.
And because of this Republicans are very afraid of him and you see that over and over in the media the "muh vuvuzela" arguments against him.
It's because he has this in the pocket tbqh anyone that was a decent human being could have actually beat Trump but it was Hilary so. Rightfully so she lost.
I definitely can't say I agree with the recent statements on Venezuela, but I can see why it was done. As much as I want Bernie (or a Tulsi for that matter) to be this perfect candidate that will be 100% anti imperialist, and full blown socialist, It would fucking make him despised and alienated by the rest of america. To me he's literally the only option for even opening the door to develop an actual socialist party in this country. I'd like to believe the comments were to save some political face with the fucking libs, but in the back of my mind I know that's probably not the the reason why he made them.
Just more settler scum, Jewish as well. Worst of both words. Electoralism will fix nothing, keep playing with your pretend power. The only solution now is year zero
He's a sheepdog for the Democratic Party. The only way Bernie could do something like that is by transforming the Democratic Party itself into a socialist party. I think you know fine well how ridiculous a proposition that is. If he actually gave a fuck about independence or building and empowering third parties he would actually run as one and be pushing Approval or Score voting at the top of his lungs. I don't think I've ever heard Bernie say a word about voting reform.
shut up, idpoler
You should read both Lin Biao and Sekai. You’re probably a settler typing this on a machine made by imperialized slaves.
and on which machine are you writing,retard?
I am not a settler, there is a world of difference.