Are there any Marxist thinkers that aren't materialists or is that a contradiction in terms? I read pic related, and I found many of the points of view interesting, particularly about alienation, but I'm not on board with the historical materialism. It's fairly obvious to me that God and the supernatural exists, though I think they are susceptible of a critique as well. Kafka's deconstruction of God's providential order in the Trial, the Castle etc is brilliant, imo, and has the virtue of not evading the problem by just rejecting the existence of God, angels etc. Are there any Marxist inspired works critiquing religion without rejecting the basic assumptions (e.g. God exists, supernatural realms exist, spiritual discipline are efficacious etc)? Let's say, for example, a critique of God, but one that accepts he exists.
I'm not very well schooled in leftist thought, so please be patient with me -__-
Christianity was a form of proto-Bolshevism peddled by figures such as ( ( ( Saul of Tarsus ) ) ). It was meant to first enslave the go.yim spiritually, and then to destroy all belief within them at all.
Brody Taylor
WTF Jesus was a postmodern neo-cultural-marxist??????????????
The thing about Christian communism, though, is that they accept God without critiquing him, i.e. God is good don't question him. I agree with him existing, I'm not so sure about the good part (at least from our human vantage point). I want something that applies a critique to religion and spirituality that is analogous to what Marx did with society and economy. So basically something like what Kafka did in some of his writing, but more from a Marxist standpoint and more explicitly philosophical rather than an allegorical novel. Probably nothing like that exists, but I thought it would be worth asking anyway. Guess you could say I'm looking for a mystical/spiritual Marxism but not conventionally religious, because to be perfectly honest most religions basically turn man into the lickspittle of God.
OP, Spirituality and occultism also interest me a lot but the crossover between marxism and occultism is non existent. This article is the only substantial thing I've found and it's very superficial. I'd like to talk with you and see if we can bridge something and learn one from the other.
Religion is not the same as spirituality.
Isaiah Howard
I remember a marxist theologian who was building a thesis about "criticism of hearth as criticism of heaven" but I wasn't able to track down any of his books and his blog was difficult to navigate, maybe you can find some substance on that I am a big fan of Kafka but I never felt his books had any criticism of god, I feel the core of his work is the feeling of being denied of an important thing but never saw god as part of that.
Ian Butler
Ok, I think we're on the same page here. I tried making this thread on halfchan's /lit/ and I don't think it clicked for them. But like I said, I don't know much about Marxism besides that book and it was a while ago that I read it. It was reading Kafka recently that got me thinking about these ideas in relation to Marxism. One of the things I found surprisingly insightful in Marx was his concept of alienation. Basically, as I understand it, capitalism alienates man from his humanity by inserting a profit motive into every activity, so that man no longer works and creates for their own sake, but does so only for profit, and usually someone else's profit. This can also be applied to a critique of religion. I think most Marxist type thinkers already do this. Religion alienates man from his qualities and possibilities by moving them to an alien being (God) and to a place he can only reach at death (Heaven). Things like that. However, I think this leads them to simply reject that these things exist and to claim that it's all made up. I don't think this has to be an inherent part of Marxist thought. It's clearly just a vestige of Enlightenment era rationalism and Anglo-empiricism (whereas Avineri in the OP book claims Marx is overwhelmingly Hegelian iirc). I think it would be far more interesting to accept the existence of God, spiritual beings and states, and nevertheless critique them insofar as they exist, to reclaim are humanity from them as real things that can be confronted. That would also necessitate a theory of spiritual praxis.
Luis Wilson
Posadas?
Anthony Flores
Hmm… I'm currently listening to an audiobook of Thomas Paine's Age of Reason. One autonomous argument he makes for deism is that if god exists and loves you why would he reveal his message through a prophet? Why isn't god talking to each one of us individually? Paine makes that argument that god talks to us through nature, the natural world is his revealed message and the study of natural sciences his true theology. We're getting off track but I felt you'll find it relevant. So in this criticism god is not an all giving father? That is something I can get behind because I always felt god as a taker and not a giver.
Hudson Taylor
You should read Kafka, particularly The Trial, The Castle, The Penal Colony, and The Great Wall of China (I also got some interesting thoughts on the Hunter Gracchus). I would give the Great Wall one a try since it's fairly short and very similar to both The Trial/Castle. Understand it as a religious allegory, it's fascinating. Basically God's providential order of the world is a confusing and inefficient, often corrupt, bureaucracy. There are so many aspects to this. Think, for example, of the concept of salvation. How do you get saved? Generally the idea is by being good. But what's good? Well to figure that out we need to look at what the prophets and holy texts say. But which ones? The different religions contradict one another, and even if we settle on one particular religion the texts themselves are vague and enigmatic, and are susceptible of countless conflicting interpretations. And in spite of this, God is still, in the religious conception of Him, going to hold us accountable for our "sins", most of which, if you think about it are quite petty and inconsequential like small lies or masturbating or whatever. This is the absurd situation that an omnipotent God has left us in. The line Kafka takes to explain this absurdity is basically that the world is run by a totally incompetent "angelic bureaucracy" (he doesn't say that outright but it's one way his work has been interpreted) that is just as much susceptible to bribes and lusts as any human organization. That's why our existential situation, religiously speaking, is so batshit absurd. I would love to go more in depth on Kafka with you once you've read him (if you haven't already)
Jose Hernandez
I mentioned that I've read plenty of Kafka across the years, I'm familiar with his work but never before I've heard about this, that his work is a spiritual criticism. As I mentioned before I felt that at the core of Kafka's work there is a feeling of being denied of something important, The Trail is being denied of justice, The Castle is being denied of fulfillment and I still have to read Amerika.
Henry Johnson
Haven't read Amerika either, yet. I feel that Kafka's work is primarily religious/spiritual in character.
Benjamin Phillips
Yes that is something that I can agree with but spirituality looking inwards to himself We're getting off track again
Gavin Wright
Maybe read Feuerbach? He was an atheist (like every other sane person) but he was as Hegelian as possible and was a great influence on Marx and Engels.
I guess I bring up Kafka because I feel his views are precisely the sort of overturning of the usual religious notions (without denying their existence!) that would serve as a preliminary to a critique, perhaps a Marxist one tho as i said I'm new to his thought, of spiritual notions as I outlined in the posts above. I'm just as clueless of where to go from here tho as anyone might be. I think this is more or less new territory, at least in some respects. I'm not aware of any thinkers that have developed these thoughts in detail. So if you have any ideas or input I'd love to hear it
Caleb Morgan
Yes, what you're asking is an empty field that we both want it to exist If you're new to Marxism maybe read some more Marx, these selected writings seems good enough marxists.org/archive/marx/works/sw/index.htm And from there onwards look up other marxists and develop your own thought, because I'm biased I'd suggest you that after Marx look up Lenin, Gramsci, Althausser, Badiou and Zizek, some of them do deal with spirituality but form the outside. Ether way if you develop any thesis after this I'd love to hear it. I'm off to bed, hopefully we can continue tomorrow.
Nicholas Powell
Also I'm not familiar with the frankfurt school but I heard some of them also wrote about spirituality bu that's something you'd have to check on your own.
David Brooks
Yeah I think one of them has a "theses on occultism" or something where he basically claims occultism is infantile, but I haven't read it yet
Carson Campbell
I'll try to help you op but I don't think I can. patheos.com/blogs/radicalchristianmillennial/2017/06/stab-dark-christian-marxism/ archive.is/D7iYt Here's a blog post made by a guy who wants to call himself a Christian Marxist, but he basically boils it down to -Historical materialist analysis of the Bible, ergo the same can be applied to all spirituality -Believing Marxist socialism has to come before communism like Marx did instead of "anarcho communism" like most Christian communists do Ultimately that's it and someone else also cites Reinhold Niebuhr as someone to look into but I can't confirm that he is someone worth looking into. There is also Buddhist Maoism if that's of any relation harvard-yenching.org/features/maoism-and-buddhist-philosophy-india-and-china archive.is/xFkau However the book itself "Maoism and the Buddhist Philosophy of India and China" on it's own is non existent outside of India for me at least, the author himself (If this is even him) is hard to find as well en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narayan_Sen Remember how I said "if that's even him" Honestly I have no clue if it is, he could also be well known Maoist N. Sanyal of the same first name or Binayak S. of the same last name or both, I have no fucking clue. But I'm wholeheartedly uncertain of anything. Honestly finding Marxist analysis on anything these days that aren't just shitposts or video essays is hard enough on it's own. It should also be noted Tenzin Gyatso considers himself Marxist but to what extent is up to debate, he also says some real liberal tier shit here. hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlquotes1.html#marxism archive.is/KqsqY
? The Dead Sea Scrolls are prob the most revolutionary early Jewish document. They're of a millennial and apocalyptic flavour. But they're not particularly suggestive of 20c. Bolshevism. There's nothing for example about seizing control of the Roman state through a vanguard party . A Hellenised Jewish businessman, whose thinking would become most influential in the Christian church *after* the defeat of the Jewish revolt against Rome of 66-73AD. I can see where you're going with this. But again, mainsteam (rabbinical) Judaism didn't develop from the most revolutionary Jews, as above writing the Dead Sea Scrolls, holed up in the Qumran monastery, or the cult of the Zealots, from the bandit-inhabited desert. It was basically a continuation of the conservative tradition of the Pharisees. Pic related of Jewish irregulars fom Neil Faulkner, Apocalyspse:The Great Jewish Revolt Against Rome AD66-73
Tbh I wouldn't look to Marxism for that critique OP. I'd just read up on gnosticism. pics related from Kurt Rudolph, Gnosis:The Nature and History of Gnosticism.
It's inevitable to some degree with the gods, imho. It's just a trade. 5,000 years ago you'd burn some grain or meat on the fire, mutter a prayer, and hope for something back. Not that much has changed. People go to church, or join a witches' coven or whatever, because they want something from a power greater than themselves.
Me neither! Not unless you count a few cockney Jewish words like smutter. Zig Forums isn't a dedicated anti-Semitic board. If you dispprove of the semitic tone occasionally taken by posters here, perhaps you might like a different image board better? (But by all means stay, reply, and bump it back to the top.)
Julian Martin
That's Adorno, I think it's Walter Benjamin that one that was more sympathetic
Wew Mr Gyatso sounds like such casual, learned marxism out of capitalist hearsay.
Ryan Martin
Piss be upon Yaroslavskii Never forget March 1753 Never forget the Summer of 1936 And October of 2015
Mason Edwards
It's anti American board though. Rookie mistake for not differentiating between our government and our citizen. That's ok foreigners make that mistake all the time.
John Perry
I'm of the variety that anarchist communism is not longer a viable option to bringing Christian revolution into place
Anthony Gray
It might have been, if I'd have posted anything about either your government, or American citizens.
Jason Ramirez
No surprises here.
Landon Foster
Be gnostic and all is settled.
Adrian Richardson
Any connections between gnosticism and Marxism?
Ayden Morales
The whole demiurge and false reality thing kind of mirrors ideology and false consciousness I guess.
William James
Why did post-modernism work though?
Jordan Jones
Trostskyites OUT
Jordan Nelson
Logic is heresy you faggot
Leo Stewart
Duly noted
Carter Torres
Also it doesn't matter, that shit happened whether not you acknowledge it.
Jayden Butler
I beg to differ
Joshua Bell
Well I have a supernatural experience and I still a marxist materialist. In my case, my experience was material, and got voices, closing and openig doors bu it self, lights how just did tuned off and on by it self too , while a voice was calling by my name, was creepy, and all happened when I was trying to summon God (In my childhood I was christian), realy rare, but I can't afirmt if that was god, an aline, and deamon, gosth, a extra dimensional thing or whatever, so as materialist, me conception about that is just was a rare situation whitout explication, and hard to demostray to other. Either materialist or spiritualism can't argument was that happening to me, and was that. And most important, this kind of things are irrelevant and just happen to one in million of people, and dosen't take a important in materialist dialetic theory. Or how many peolpe in this board has a experience like mine?
Carter Lopez
Not exactly. I was under seige from an enemy once (long story) and started to hear his voice, when he wasn't physically present. I pretty much self-diagnised it as stress-"induced schizophrenia, rather than it being anything more profound . It wasn't like how it's sometimes described, "voices in the head". It was an audible sound. I thought it must be coming through pipes in my house at first. I was holed up with a weapon. Tbh, my biggest worry was having visual hallucinations as well and imagining someone else was my enemy, and hurting an innocent person by mistake. Probably if it hadn't been a profane auditory hallucination, but something sacred speaking to me, I would have attached more meaning to it. I know skeptic anons are going to be thinking "its was things from the subconscious mind." But by definition, the subconscious mind isn't known directly to you, either. It's below the level of consciousness. The only difference between the gods and the subconscious mind is one is viewed as internal, the other external.I suppose the litmus test would be asking the spirit or being to make an effect in the physical world to prove their existence.
Grayson Ross
most people who are proclaimed MLs have no idea what materialism is, in my experience. theirs is closer to Hume and muh rational scientism which is to say, 'I can only affirm what is available to my 5 senses (and maybe mind)'. this is not Hegelian materialism, which is a lot closer to the worldview of the Bhagavad Gita: namely the 3 gunas (qualities) theory which is the same as synthesis, thesis, antithesis. These qualities are present in everything that makes up 'the world', in varying degrees, and missing this point is a crutial failure of modern socalled philosophy. the issue is that people are myred in the rational intellect, which is perfect for creepy-hive-state-socialism to function, but fails at anything intuitive, aesthetic, or trans-rational (or supernatural). start with Kant, then read Sri Ramakrishna (his experience verifies that the transcendental which Kant calls inaccessible but informs (moral) reality can in fact be interfaced with), then read Hegel keeping in mind he was an alchemist/hermetic and that should give u a greater insight of the material
Ethan Cooper
this is why you have to be grounded in material reality first before exploring higher realms yogis sit for hours at a time to dampen the need for seeking outward for comfort, but alternatively you can learn a martial art: this is why Neo has to learn kung-fu before being eligible to become The One. if you don't have the bio-survival circuit under complete control you'll be running around like an automaton trying to secure that. in relation to unconscios/subconscious, the waking state is produced from beta waves and that takes 10% of the mind's power. the other 90% is awakened in dreaming or deep sleep. so which is more real? the real power of a superluminary like Jesus, Mohammad, Krishna et al, is the conscious delivery of the contents of the unconscous into the visible realm via a well-conditioned spinal column. if you were to have the full spiritual awakening in the body without being prepared for it, at best you go nuts, but there's every possibility you'll blow your nervous system out. let it come in its own time, for most people this means at the moment of death, but if you're strong enough and meant for it you can die while alive.
Oliver Scott
Sounds like a shitskin, no thanks
Andrew Collins
what an interesting and varied contribution, your broad minded and learned scholarship is a welcome addition to the discussion!
Mention"s been made of gnosticism in this thread. Pic related is a practical exercise, in the gnostic tradition, which anons can test out for themselves. The exercise is from The Mystery of the Seven Vowels, by Joscelyn Godwin. It discusses "an esoteric tradition that links the vowels to the seven planets of astrology and the gods that rule them. The mythological background includes such topics as the vowel-names of IAO, IAHWE, and other gods ; the invocations of planets used in Egyptian temples and in Greek magical incantations;the power of wordless song to illuminate and heal, and even- if the reports of occultists are true- to aid the soul after it has left the body. " The exercise might not give you all that, but it's got to be better for you than relaxing with whisky. The books got some intriguing speculations about Sethian gnosticism, and the braying of an ass sounding like how the Egyptian god with an assets head, Seth, would have been invoked as" IO." It's not mentioned in the book, but IIRC this is also the god described by the Egyptians as" the god of foreigners", so even our board nazbols and such can have a go at this without feeling they being traitors to the forces of Western Civilisation ecc.
Religion is a private affair, so you could absolutely worship anyone to your heart's content, it's just incompatible with marxism.
Daniel Foster
Fair comment.
Nathaniel Hernandez
...
Jace Rodriguez
That's because most good communism isn't marxist.
Colton Rogers
Why should we allow people to believe in harmful beliefs that simply are false? This is a bourgeois deviation. The state shouldn’t let retards believe that 2 + 2 = 5 or similar falsehoods just because muh feels. Churches need turned into parking lots, priests executed en masse, worshippers sent to gulags and religious texts thrown into the purifying flames of revolution. Tabula rasa now.
Hudson King
Because it's none of your business (so long believers don't try and impose beliefs and practices on other people.)
