Is there a certain way to talk to Trump supporters/alt righters that would get them to actually listen to you rather than shitting their pants and calling you a cuck?
Is there a certain way to talk to Trump supporters/alt righters that would get them to actually listen to you rather...
Not really, but I think it is imperative to focus more on the profit motive.
The problem is they are just going to blame Jews instead of Capitalism so it is most often a futile exercise.
you're not very bright
The "self-improvement"(read: sophist) movement lead directly into the Alt-Right, bringing with it herds of autistic lardfats.
well that's a new twist
Don't flip out, keep to your positions, and hope you can tempt them into putting on the glasses. If people are already suspicious of you, the only chance you have is a soft-sell.
You can't argue with beliefs. They're not the result of rational thinking so rational thinking can't help.
Its a bit like arguing with a creationist, they chose to believe because feelings
Alt-righters are nazis and are beyond hope. It's possible you could have a real conversation with one in real life but they don't talk about politics offline since their entire position is online spectacle. And of course, participating in said spectacle is utterly futile.
Trump supporters at this point are mostly stupid rubes with a bizarre sunk-cost fallacy going on. I do actually believe that a part of the initial attraction to Trump was fueled by a healthy skepticism towards neoliberal policy but that became very obviously sidelined by know-nothing style nativism and at this point in the office, bog-standard neoliberal policy. Just this time with a demented old man serving as the point of spectacle. The remaining Trump supporters want a personality to worship and will not be convinced by anything.
They are right wing SJWs. They don't want to debate.
Have facts not comedic snippets
Dont go on a rant
Ask questions as there is a reason why we believe certain ways
Dont go in multiple directions not related to the topic
Accept or adjust your thinking when proven wrong
Dont blindy accept what your news source tells you.
Verify what each other says by looking up the facts if in contest
This applies both ways.
But fyi I have yet ran into a liberal that knows his shit well enough to prove anything wrong that i believe.
The kekistani and Milo Yiannopolous fans are "low-t" edgelords. Also the self-improvement crowd kind of can be counted to the fedora group, because they think that all their problems are caused by themselves, and not by capitalism, and that you have to work hard and debate and "treat the ladies right" (This means lying to them), to succeed. Elliot Rodger wasn't a neckbeard, but he was an edgelord.
lel, this is actually spot on
You can practice with me if you like, OP
There are a lot of areas of common ground as long as you're not a liberal sjw. They are very sensitive to cultural issues, but on economic issues they're far more moderate than traditional establishment type Republicans. When you say that profit motive is the reason for the degradation of their communities and importation of foreigners who are ushering in a new culture they're very receptive to issues like that. Also linking globalism to capitalism as well as all the foreign interventionalism works as well.
If, instead, you decide to take the typical liberal line of harping on about "marginalized communities" and "white privilege" you're going to be called a cuck and get nowhere. If you bring up "wealth privilege" when talking to poor rural white people who love Trump based on cultural issues, you might get somewhere.
Found the jew.
The Torahn: Deuteronomy 15:6
For the Lord your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.
youre fucking blind if you dont see capitalism in that verse. it is the reason jews decided to control control central banks. so they could enslave goyim to debt.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
Didnt you worship the unaccomplished polished turd known as obama?
Talking to them makes me want to kill myself.
I find them as repellent as some SJW liberals I meet.
many capitalists are jews, but it doesn't mean that capitalism is jewish. that's myopic and encourages people to fruitlessly seek jewish conspiracy in everything instead of attacking the true root of all evil - capitalism. replacing jewish CEOs with white ones won't fix anything
nah, we're not liberals.
I thought you fags liked capitalism? And that darwinism is law? Oh, but not when others are better at it than you, that's right.
You're like little baby's.
I've done it. Most people in extremist ideologies are closed-minded no matter which one they ascribe to. So when you get two large groups of mostly closed-minded people, there isn't much verbal discourse. It's hard to find two reasonable, well-learned people of opposing viewpoints, who know enough about each other's ideology, and have a small enough emotional attachment to it, to be willing and able to converse with each other.
I mean let's be real. We all believe what we believe because we think it is the best solution to societal problems, right? Very few people try to be evil, so why view each other as evil? We assign blame to different groups but we're just trying to find out who's causing the problems.Communists blame capitalists, nazis blame Jews… and you'd be surprised how often these two intersect. The fact is that most of those in control of this capitalist system ARE Jews. They just notice this and focus too much on it. Being Jewish isn't the problem. It's those controlling this system. Who happen to be majority Jewish. Just like, for instance
during slavery most slave owners were white, but being white wasn't what was wrong. Focusing on their race is a red herring. We fundamentally agree on who's to blame. We just have different words and methods of reaching that conclusion. People need to learn how to intersect ideologies, and learn from each other, to reach a mutual truth.
Disagreed, the problem is "the system" itself AKA capitalism, not the capitalists as a collective entity.
perhaps wait until they are done fucking your wife before attempting any meaningful discourse
I'm pretty sure they prefer to have their wives fucked by us.
gtfo u retarded liberal
muh both sides
achtuaolly, jews DO control the world !!!!
When talking to right wingers you should try to focus on alienation as opposed to exploitation and class antagonisms. Right-wingers are not bothered by hierarchies but care deeply about the social fabric.
Generic Trump Supporters are retarded normies that aren't worth your time.
They are potential allies for you, although you would have to make some compromises regarding their pet issues. Any economic agenda they might have is completely subordinate to their demographic goals.
Depends on the person, obviously, but by and large most of them have very little actual commitment to any sort of right-wing politics and are just there because avoiding politics is no longer an option; to them "the left" is as much a 600lb. Jewish bull dyke in rockabilly glasses gleefully publishing articles on HuffPo about the extinction of white people as it is Das Kapital and with this being the case they gravitate in the opposite direction. You'll have better luck with these fellow travelers than the humor tourists (apathetic), the brainlets (self-explanatory) and the true believers (inoculated) but you have to get them either before they start sipping the kool-aid or when they're feeling relatively disillusioned.
Yes, true, but a system cannot exist without the people propagating it.
See now this is the type of guy I'm talking about. How do you converse with a rabid person like this? It's not possible, he's too emotionally attached to his ideology and unwilling to talk because he takes any opposing argument as a personal insult. If you're well researched in both your own and your opponent's ideology, you have no need to get so offended because you know you can intellectually dominate your opponents with logical discourse.
I do not wish to "converse" with you, or "meet you on the battlefield of ideas" or whatever gay shit jordan b peterson tells you to do. grow some balls and stand for something you liberal dork
This is how you talk to them.
Lift weights, get fit, present yourself well. If you look like some AIDS-ridden fag who wears bourgie clothes and accoutrement you'll be dismissed, rightly, as a failure of internal discipline and therefore no leader of men.
The other thing you can do is to concretely define terms and lay out premises in a clear way, because this is a common point of contention people have with the left generally. Y'all have a tendency to take perfectly serviceable English words and redefine them in order to pull a bait-and-switch on interlocutors. The other common annoyance is the failure to properly establish premises, because often the left and right (or whichever way you want to slice the divide) fail to agree on premises for which there is no objective answer (questions of value, what is the exact nature of human behavior and to what extent is it mutable).
If you can sort out those issues, you'll begin to have productive dialogues not only with the lads across the aisle but within your own community also.
No, because it isn't their intention to actually have a constructive debate and sadly, a lot of them aren't even able to have one. I think German author Goetz Kubitschek, the intellectual role-model of the Alt-Right in Germany, wrote that the main goal is to destroy the open discourse and divide society. Having an actual discussion where you could lose wouldn't lead to the desired results so you have to put on a shitfest.
The shitfest is merely a strategy directed toward the masses. Propaganda and mass action isn't a rational enterprise, and nobody ever picked up his rifle over a productive debate. You'd do well to understand the difference between public ridicule for the purpose of propaganda and engagement for productive purposes.
Besides, the issue of loss isn't the primary reason the right and left fail to argue correctly. The real problem is boredom and failure to establish terms and premises. When everyone's arguing their points without first creating a common understanding then the whole enterprise is a pointless waste of time and rightly avoided.
I'll furnish an example: the alt right believes there are group-level differences in behavior (among the sexes, races) which express themselves meaningfully at the scale of the nation and which are predominantly biological in nature. If you take that to be true, there are certain conclusions which can be drawn logically. If you take it to be false, you may logically draw different conclusions. This is the fundamental problem: two people having an argument can both present a rational case to one another but no progress will be made unless at the very least it's made clear on what foundation those arguments are laid.
Unfortunately most people aren't capable of understanding any of this so you're more or less stuck with a couple options: find an intelligent person with different political beliefs from yourself who's capable of understanding the problem of defining terms and premises and then go through the trouble of doing so with him, or participate in more effective tactical operations at the level of the mass. If you want some go-between option where you're going to show up somewhere and expect to develop this sort of rational relationship with random people you're likely to be disappointed. Frankly, forums like Zig Forums are about the closest you're going to get to such an engagement short of making friends with some very rare individuals in either camp.
yeah no, pol just calls me a soyboy or a jew
That's a bit bigoted, no? Here I am on your home turf calling you neither.
Regardless, the point stands. Constructive dialogue is almost entirely a product of clearly defined terms and premises because only then can people even hope to understand what the other values, let alone was his arguments are.
I'd also take notice of the other point here because it's an important one for leftypol specifically: you guys are getting pantsed in the propaganda game. I think part of that is a failure to convert high-IQ people at the personal level, or through blogs and other outlets while the alt-right (or whatever you want to call the emergent "right") have made conversions through many vectors. Video games and other male-dominated hobbies, pick-up artists, image boards, all these things contribute to capturing the next generation of intelligent young men and harnessing their energy and intelligence in service of propaganda. It may actually be too late for the left in that sense, since your brand is now associated with the loser kids. I don't have any real advice on that front since I don't know how to solve this problem for you, but I think an awareness of the nature of the problem is a good first step. You wouldn't find yourself so easily dismissed as a cuck or soyboy or jew if you were self-evidently masculine and composed.
Welp, that's true.
What difference does that make if it's true? The result is a groundswell of independent propaganda which is having a real-world effect on peoples' attitudes and actions. Don't dismiss your enemy in your own mind and imagine that this grants you power over him.
What? You mean your stupid Pepe stickers? You subhumans cannot even do public rallies anymore since you get BTFO by us every time.
What the fuck are you talking about? Video games, PUA shit, anime, and imageboards are associated with loser kids. You guys really have zero self awareness.
It’s reallly illuminating that right wingers advocate for homeschooling to “protect” their kids from “neomarxist propaganda,” then simultaneously turn around and say that the left is losing the propaganda game. Again, zero self awareness.
What the left has at present is institutional power. You're failing to differentiate between a state organ and a decentralized network. The new right is an insurgency.
It's also worth understanding that what you've presented in your photos are people who are laughed at on both sides. There's a reason we refer to Sargon as Soygon of Mossad, and his epic kekites and individialismists as fags. You're welcome to believe what you're doing is successful though, it serves my interests.
ok buddy good luck posting identity europa stickers on campus, that is some really epic propaganda
by the way the left have forever to win due to the internal contradictions of capitalism, white nationalism is contingent on your skin tone
For your comrades' edification, this is what I mean by a problem of presentation. You're clearly butthurt over nothing here and effectively running out of the room and slamming the door behind you. It's effeminate.
I am dazed by how deluded you are. Screencap this post and stick it on campus, you have my permission to integrate how obviously butthurt I am into your complex propaganda network.
physically remove yourself, Zig Forums
I'm trying to help your board mate, but you need to help yourselves. If you don't know your enemy, you've got trouble coming down the pipeline. Clearly there's cringe on both sides of the aisle, but at the end of the day people from your side have steadily been getting up and walking over to ours. The evidence is in the elections. Also you're still clearly butthurt.
literally no one here likes obama.
You couldn't be more obvious kike.
Again, you have no self awareness. Trump won because the American electoral system is broken by design and because neoliberals trotted out the worst candidate of all time and openly rigged the election against her challenger, not because people are becoming more conservative. If you want real proof- Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the entire country and Mitch McConnell is the least popular.
Elections, plural. Will you dismiss the gains of the so-called far-right in Europe? You also have to ask yourself, in Trump's case, what are the demographics? Young white men overwhelmingly support Trump. Where to do you believe power is derived? If you think the support of a multi-racial hodgepodge and women (a minority of white women, in this case) is a recipe for success then more power to you, we'll meet you on the playing field.
What gains have they made? Labour Party in the UK? Melenchon in France? Get real.
Ownership of the means of production.
Well, it is, considering how you have close to zero power in society. No one cares about race except you.
We meet you on the playing field and you get pushed back every time. Your gay idols like Milo and Spencer aren’t even giving talks anymore for safety reasons.
Get them into socialist economics. Show them how socialism is a better system than capitalism. Then once they agree with socialism despook them on the muh jews stuff.
Poland and Ukraine
Neither Milo nor Spencer are our idols, and we eschew idols (in human form) generally for the simple reason that they present a tactical weakness. Individuals are used and their actions and ideas propagated to the extent they're useful.
What does ownership of the means of production entail? How do you own something?
There's a reason Hitler said it was easier to convert a Bolshevik than a capitalist. It's actually worth understanding that a fair number of people on the right share the same concerns about capitalism and the tendency of capital to single ownership over time. The real division I think concerns either the belief in HBD or social constructivism. Because of that, you won't convince the alt-right that Jews aren't an issue, because they consider them a competing tribe. The logic is fairly sound and seems to line up fairly well with real outcomes - there's no Jewish conspiracy, but there is Jewish group interest.
the thing that isn't true is this liberal smugness people on the far-right have appropriated in sincerely believing themselves to be "the high-IQ ones" (i mean this in a sense externally from literally thinking of themselves as master race or whatever, a sincere belief that all political struggle, political conflict etc. boils down to having high-IQ or low-IQ)
then i would assume you could say all sociological groups contain a "group intrest" correct? then why constantly bitch about muh joos
why dont start bitching about anglo-saxon group intrest or germanic group intrest? not as intresting? didnt think so cool
We don't really believe that. We acknowledge that there are plenty of high-IQ people on the left, but we aren't Autism Level fetishists. Obviously at the group level the proportion of high-IQ people you have will help, so if the right takes 70% of the high-IQ young then that's a major asset going forward.
Most genuinely intelligent people on the right have a holistic view of this stuff - success is going to be a combination of a number of different characteristics and those will also change depending on the context. Generally speaking I think I'm right in saying though that we're winning the majority of high-IQ young (under 18) white men.
Not sure where you get the idea that that's not exactly what's happening. What do you think white nationalism is? Or ethnic nationalism in Europe? A focus on Jewish influence is merely a byproduct of that impulse.
I hope you all can learn something constructive from this, at least those of you who are intelligent as I think some are. There's a lot of snark flying my way even in this sort of context, on your own turf, when I'm taking the time to try to explain my position clearly and without malice. The problem the OP describes clearly isn't a one-way street.
what will having "high-IQ people" help you with exactly? whatever the fuck "high-IQ people" means to you
keep pulling numbers out of your ass please
and all of the ""low-IQ"" young white men? they dont leech their way into your cancerous ideology where they have to take zero responsibility because of some perceived virtous trait they were automatically given through birth? they dont find reassurement and comfort in being told; actually women owe them sex because secure future for muh white race or whatever. you have to be seriously delusional to believe that any traction the far-right has gotten during the past few years in regards to young men have been out of genuine, intellectual reasons
But the right is composed of retards and it only takes retards.
If you read carefully, you'll notice the 70% figure is a hypothetical, and I later note that I believe (an opinion, clearly) we are converting the *majority* of high-IQ white men. If you don't personally believe in Autism Level that's fine but what I mean by Autism Level is exactly what it is: a measure of something derived through a set of standardized tests which correlates with a number of different positive outcomes (income, educational achievement, social status).
As for believing that our gains are the result of argumentation, I've actually stated the opposite earlier in the thread. I don't believe mass action and attitudes are formed by rational argument, period. That's why good propaganda isn't a treatise on economic theory. Clearly you're not reading me very closely.
You can think that if you want, but it's not going to help you strategically. To imagine the right's ascendant purely as a result of stupidity, dumb luck, and circumstance is naive and the notion that there aren't any intelligent right-wing individuals is self-evidently incorrect. You're not doing yourself any favors thinking this way.
name one alt right intellectual
Jared Taylor, Steve Sailer
Curtis Yarvin, Pat Buchanan, and William Luther Pierce come to mind, though there are plenty of other intelligent people on the right. What are you trying to prove? I'm well aware you're able to simply laugh and dismiss these people as cranks.
you again show how you have completely swallowed the liberal dogma of anti-politics, which is as follows; politics is not derived from politics in and of itself, but rather from general intellect or other virtues(see:"facts and logic")
And you do this truly well, in the first breath you claim "we aren't Autism Level-level fetishists" yet you cannot stress the point enough of how convinced you are that your own ideology, ofcourse(!) must attract most of the young intellectuals.
please englighten us, what except your autistic ego drives this conviction?
There's a difference between considering Autism Level the ultimate determinant of success and recognizing it as a benefit. I can well say I'd rather have a chocolate bar than not without saying chocolate bars are the only food worth having. I'm not sure you're as smart as you think you are.
My belief derives from my own personal experiences including an amalgam of all the data (true or not, filtered through a holistic system which weighs probabilities which I call my brain) available to me via media. Basically, the same source from which your beliefs are derived.
I also don't really see your point concerning anti-politics. I think politics is an emergent property of human biology and society working in tandem. It's simply the mechanism through which we regulate social life and it's always ultimately backed up by physical force. If you mean I don't believe politics is merely an abstraction with no relation to material matters, you're right.
You're better than those people how? Lol c'mon man. And you keep posting all those pics of ugly dudes and LARPers, you know they have just as many of you that they post on their forums right? Almost all of both sides are dumb brainwashed kids, very few intellectuals to go around. Just a bunch of braindead kids fighting in the street, because you want to belong to something. It's stupid.
Stupid pretty well describes the public face of politics. Adapt or perish.
You're absolutely delusional.
The only thing we really have going for us is Trump. The backlash against him is great and he may single-handedly halt the escalation of conservatism with his stupidity. In the next 3-7 years we might see a complete reversal of these trends.
We are better than you because we are literate and have a serious political and economic theory, whereas you mumble about ethnostates every time you are pressed on your beliefs. Who is LARPing here, polbaby?
really seizes my means
You lads are embarrassing your comrades.
Vladimir Putin is Communist
Made by Millenial Gang
Lol, ok kid. I never once talked about my own beliefs. Both of you guys screech and instantly label/dismiss anyone who talks to you; which is the topic of the thread - why you seem unable to talk to each other. That's why I'm bringing it up, and you're proving my point with the stupidity.
I guarantee I know more about every flavor of communist theory than the average LARPer out there in the street, but apparently I'm fascist or Zig Forums or whatever when I criticize you even gently. And ask any of those kids out there about what their personal take on anything is. Anything at all. They can't answer you, they just scream in your face and call you a fascist.
Now, I'm a level-headed person so them doing this doesn't make me join "the other team" as it were, but I can understand why this would make someone who otherwise has similar views to you join up with the alt-right tardos. Similarly, I can see why talking to them would make you join up with antifa. The average guy on neither team expresses any sort of intellectualism that would make a normie join you, and in fact you are both very alienating which is why normies are disgusted with you and mostly losers join up.
Also, LARPing is reserved to real life. Don't call people online LARPers, that's an oxymoron. I can assume you are one of the guys running around in a knight cosplay since I made you butthurt by talking about them?
Shut da fuck up Jordan Peterson
Once again you prove yourself incapable of discourse. Every time you say something dumb like this you're proving the point of the OP. If you had the knowledge to back up your viewpoint, you wouldn't be so angry and butthurt.
This isn't even talking about people of voting age… and like I said, Trump's stupidity is helping us out a lot and we may see a reversal of these trends, especially among the young generation which this article is talking about.
I've been making a good faith effort with them and haven't received much in return. It's still interesting to me but I don't judge your whole group based on your spergs. The same thing happens everywhere.
As I see it the greatest impediment to productive dialogue between any groups anywhere is that those groups are necessarily made up mostly of idiots and halfwits. Even on a forum like this which by its nature selects for intelligence you get the dummies in droves.
Shut da fuck up Jordan Peterson
Shut da fuck up Jordan Peterson
Yeah man, I actually like talking about these things and trying to understand where people are coming from and what led them to their conclusions. I've read plenty on every side of the political spectrum. It strikes me as emotional immaturity when someone just screams. It's like a defense mechanism - they're so afraid of any challenge to their belief system that they try to drown it out. I don't understand that at all. Never give up trying to talk to people, no matter how stupid they act.
What do you have against Jordan Peterson? The only thing I really know about him is the "clean your room" meme. Can you tell me what it is about him you dislike, and why you think he'd post on 8ch?
Shut da fuck up Jordan Peterson
Ah, another well thought-out, reasoned and intelligent reply, as I've come to expect from you my friend.
Shut da fuck up Jordan Peterson
stop trying to act so sophisticated. nobody is going to take you seriously if you keep acting like a smug douchebag.
Make me little boy.
We're not the same person friend. And I'm not "acting" any sort of way. The OP asked a question and we're discussing it ITT. If you haven't the brain cells to join the discussion then just ignore the thread.
I'm about to drop a big redpill on you, my Zig Forums comrade. We don't like SJWs, because they use their identity politics to distract people from bigger economic issues. We don't like Democrats either, because they just support the current system but with more useless little band-aid solutions. Obama used drones to illegally kill thousands of civillians in the name of the War on Terror, and expanded NSA spying programs massively, so most of us actually hate him.
Believe it or not, we're not all the same here on the left. If you're curious, all you have to do is ask some questions and we'll be happy to talk to you.
Pics related are some of our best redpills. Check them out.
The real tragedy is that I think a lot of us are idealists of one sort or another but we've simply come to different conclusions concerning what's pragmatic based on our core beliefs. I actually think a focus on economics isn't going to get us anywhere bridging the divide and we need to engage seriously on the more basic issues, which in this case can be boiled down to "what is the human organism, how does it behave, what about its behavior is immutable, and what are the differences, if any, between different groups?"
Unless we can find some common ground on the above I don't think we'll be able to move forward as brothers.
He might be referring to us as a unit, it's possible from his grammar. He's still wrong but perhaps not in that sense.
I think most on pol understand the left isn't all the same, they mostly just don't care very much to differentiate because they're busy with propaganda. The primary focus of pol at this point is purely propagandistic - it's a change from its original incarnation that I've noticed over time but I don't disagree with the direction of the board. At this point our primary focus online is our strategic goals.
We're aware that there are "progressives" and other lefty types who are every bit the vultures and con artists that neocons are.
i love it when aut-right tries to pretend that they have a nuanced and totally legitimate worldview with a philosophical basis, and aren't just larping as nazis because they got angry at some teens tumblr posts
Technically you're referring to atheism+, which is distinct from other atheist movements, particularly the rational skeptic movement who, although generally liberal in nature, their opposition to feminism (particularly during GG), provided the platform needed for the magashitshow that began in 2016.
You're the reason the OP can't have nice conversations.
I agree, and I'm one of the few people who actually doesn't look forward to violence. I think this country is pretty great, it just needs some reforms. I think both sides are too far apart and too indoctrinated at this point to reach any sort of reconciliation or mutual understanding. But it won't stop me from working toward that effort.
Problem with this is that those "individuals" are linked to you either way, and regardless of your ideas, which are basically fucking stupid, your followers and adherents will wind up becoming new figures. And even en masse you're seen as a group of raving racist retards
(Charlottesville) who piss themselves and fall back at the slightest show of anti-fa. Berkley doesn't amount to shit if you fail constantly time after time.
Ah yes, the intellectual powerhouse of that is Zig Forums
Pseuds, liars, and not even """""white""""" are some of the other words I'd use to describe them.
Woah there slow down son.
nice conversations with whomst? idiots who base their entire worldview on shitty memes and cherrypicked tweets by bored uptown teens? hard pass
God bless you mod
Doesn't seem like this is the place to do it.
why are you talking to yourself
I smell samefagging.