Toxic masculinity

I don't necessarily disagree.
Is true that the mass media and entertainment inspire bad models and toxic in a certain sense. I made the example of James bond as a joke, but when you think about it he should be an example to follow but this goes for all "not true" fatherly models. If you can't talk to him, you don't know him or it's not a real person you shouldn't have him as model.
That said the things that scares me is that the only response to these "toxic" models are guys like peterson who are at their core con artist.
I mean, I always had the impression that people who follow guys like peterson or pua artists are the one that failed at being "natural" because they think natural means being like Bond or Steve Mcqueen. Instead they choose to be the "responsible intellectual" in the case of peterson or, in case of the latter, being borderline MGTW and adapt their "masculinity" to what is perceived to be in gym folklore all this under the excuse of traditionalism ecc.

It's no coincidence that most of these people belive that "looks>the rest".
They failed at being movie macho so they try to be alt macho.

Both fail miserably obviously.

Attached: news-bronson-obit-tb.jpg (750x596, 49.51K)

Sorry

Yes! Baboons in zoos!

Bronson is a great role model tbh

honestly as fatherless scum myself my role models always was the cast of the great escape, I mean look at the Jesus christ these guys were the greatest team ever

Attached: 0aba6bb51342918d775770c7cbd2134d--the-great-escape-greatest-movies.jpg (500x402, 38.65K)

I think when most people talk about "toxic masculinity", they're complaining about their ex-boyfriends and trying to make it look like some greater social critique. The rest is man-hating crap mostly complaining that men don't behave like women.

I'm talking about the term's colloquial use, of course. I made the thread basically to ask if it had any academic merit or if it was basically the same thing.

The problem with phrases like toxic masculinity is that they sound like they mean something overtly bigoted, which attracts bigots to using them and the meaning gets diluted. If you have to coin a phrase as part of your critique, your first responsibility is to not make it a phrase that could be easily misconstrued, especially as something hateful.

Well, I don't know about that

But the basic definition from a quick Google search

To me this seems pretty trivial, but lots of social movements based around these ideas have some kind of beginning in academia I'd say. Either way, if a ""feminist"" is using the term to derride someone for acting too masculine then they're missing the point entirely (to the point that you could accuse them of being a hypocrite and then immediately ignore whatever else they have to say on the matter). I can see where people are getting the man-hating feel from it though, because colloquially it is misused (in the way I previously described) and even in the definition it could be misinterpreted as, "being masculine surpresses what you can emotionally express" or even "if you're a dude and aren't crying then you're clearly toxic". But neither is the case. The point academics are trying to make is that certain cultures place expectations on men that have a negative effect on their psyche by constraining what they are allowed to express and therefore implicitly surpress what men are supposed to feel, implying that a man is a failure of a man if he experiences certain emotions that are deemed effeminate by that community. The reasoning behind toxic masculinity is supposed to support men. Not humiliate them, and anyone who is using it to complain about or insult people is actively hurting he cause they claim to support.

So basically there is a difference between the academic meaning and the common (see: liberal) use of the term

Zig Forums challenge, come up with a better term for this as to differentiate it from the currently misused one. Maybe something relating to "stand-in" or "proxy"?

Endocrinology is responsible for differences in the emotional response of the sexes, not socialization. Just look at the number of MTF transpeople who start taking hormones and describe a rapid alteration in their psychology (Hint: it's ubiquitious). Even the original conception of """toxic masculinity""" is therefore an expression of bigotry against men.

I'm sure our resident dogmatic social constructionists are taking umbrage with my assertions and reaching for their flamethrowers, so let me make a further point. If these responses are socially conditioned, as those responsible for originating the term """toxic masculinity""" seem to claim, then for feminists to demand changes to those responses is for feminists to demand men behave in a way they stipulate. As feminism portrays itself as the "women's movement", this is women attempting to define the gender role of men. It is historical fact that feminists rejected attempts by men to do this to women and it should not be acceptable for the feminist movement to engage in similar behavior itself.

just call it what it is
"machismo"
if you need the father figure context it's a good idea to actually bring all of that up instead of cooking up cool buzzwords people are going to misinterpret and toss around

stonehead-masculinity: only caring about being big, buff, alpha, mean to people, tough and basically being the grown up version of the highschool-tv show jock bullies.
Airhead-femininity: only caring about being pretty, attractive, queen bee, mean to people, desirable, empty headed and basically being the grown up version of the highschool-tv show popular mean girls

Femininity can toxic too.
I think feminists would argue than toxic masculinity is worse based on its effects in the world. They might be right. Is capitalism toxic masculinity run amok?

No, capitalism doesn't care for masculinity, only phychos. The best capitalist is one that can make use of any tactic to gain, be it adhering to some kind of societal standard, breaking from it or emotional manipulation.
Being buff and alpha doesn't make you a good capitalist, fully embodying any social norm usually doesnt make you top chicken, because most social norms, even ones that are retarded, generally include some aspects that are positive to society, such as protecting the weak, sacrifice for the greater good or whatever. You get the most out of them by breaking the norms when its beneficial and not getting noticed doing it.

Just use the term correctly.

Otherwise I suggest incel syndrome

Being hyper competitive does though and acting like you're the top dog is good praxis for keeping workers in line. Not sure about being buff necessarily being an example toxic masculinity but its pretty well known that being attractive and in shape are very helpful in capitalism.

When are being attractive and in shape not helpful?

Internet stuff.

When running for POTUS

When you are a faggot or uncharismatic or insecure

Which all occur under capitalism.

True. which is why here I said that the it's not possible to follow a model to be masculine without being brainwashed

Its another 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧jewish trick🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 to spread chaos among their host countries. How about toxic kikery? How about toxic niggerdom? How about toxic homosexuality? Have you gotten your ass pos'd yet user? Lefties eat this shit for breakfast and cry when when someone has a healthy normal outlook to sex relations.

What about toxic circumcision? What about toxic communism that has killed millions?

I admit, I laughed

Attached: Macrocephaly.jpg (600x400, 22.02K)

Honestly it is just one of the more obviously Misandrist ideological inventions of modern, liberal, bigoted feminism.
Much of modern, liberal feminism has a severe hatred of men and masculinity at its very core.
Them co-opting the name of a very real and important issue affecting men (and honestly I would argue that the lack of proper role models is something that all members of society suffer from; Young men simply being the most vulnerable) and turning it into a pseudo socially acceptable way of attacking men and the masculine is both utterly disgusting yet also not at all surprising.

It is quite telling when the very concept of being a man or simply masculine is one that liberal feminism cannot tolerate.
Yet the only criticism they have of women is limited to those that do not subscribe to the cult of liberal feminism.
At-least the Gnostic hatred of the masculine was rooted in something other then simple bigotry.

Attached: f5753870a40ccef114a6cb88e7f48531.jpg (680x680, 82.5K)

So this is the power the Zig Forums's anti-idpol…

Feminists make pretend to hate it but they always have their pussies being beaten like hamburger meat by Chads who are the most toxic of toxic. If you don't have toxic masculinity they treat you with utter contempt.

????
I know people have their own problems about self disclosing or even talking about feelings and insecurities but it don't mean you cannot share them with the men and women in your life. I know alienation and isolation can be killers too because I'm mostly disconnected and seemingly searching for someone familiar with leftism. My friend Faith is one of them but I rarely see her and I think I bug her too much with my kiddish interruptions.
I have my friend that talks to me about being depressed and sometimes it's draining after hearing it a ton. I happen to have depression too but I try my best to support him. And it's not depressed because of work or being poor it's about an online fling with a woman he's never seen the face of.

I love having my pussy beating by my Chad bf.
Hee hee hee ho ho ho.

I just yesterday heard women talking about this guy crying in front of one of them, and there was laughter. It's objectively untrue that you can do this without being annoying/inviting ridicule.

LOL
Sadly true a lot of the time.

Attached: goiterman.jpg (307x409, 26.54K)

god this is bad
your friend actually might be talking to another man
internet escapism is such a fucking retarded thing

t. virgin

t. short-term relationships only

No, whatever use it had in its small academic circles is as fucking dead as "cultural marxism" or "socialism". After words with very specific meaning drip their way into public consciousness they become caricatures of their former meanings at best.

I don't think the common definition of "toxic masculinity" or anyone trying to stop it is really that big a deal. While there are some gender differences that are cultural, men will continue to act masculine and women feminine. The sexes didn't evolve different bodies but keep identical brains, there will be behavior differences and there's nothing wrong about it, nor is there anything society can fix about it. Blaming males being more violent or less outwardly emotional than women because of culture is no different then blaming school shootings on video games.

Attached: 1519186801920.jpg (500x325, 45.72K)

...

I love you

"The real toxic masculinity is homosexuality" - Engels

I care not for the definition, the term is purposely designed to sound insulting and emasculating, call it something else. “Toxic” is a liberal term.
Feminists only champion men’s issues when it serves to emasculate men. This is why identity-centric conceptions of equalitarianism need to go into the gulag.
Chauvinists need to go to the gulag, female comrades being treated unfairly is bad, oppose it, the end.

BOB JOHNSON

Big McLargeHuge

That's not shit I'm making up. Just look up shit people say about toxic masculinity, especially on social media, and you'll almost certainly run into some shit about how men should be more open about their feelings and problems with other men directly implying not with women.

Once again, this isn't some shit I'm posting about from my own life, this is shit I see all the time when people talk about toxic masculinity on social media or whatever the fuck. Once again, look it up. I've seen it so much, I bet you wouldn't have to go far without seeing some shit about how toxic masculinity is when men have trouble talking about their feelings and insecurities, not with other people, but with other men. Which, like I said, seems to imply that you should keep this lauded "possitive masculinity" their promoting within your circle of male friends and away from women, which in turn implies that women prefer traditional "toxic" masculinity.

The term I prefer to use is “being a dick”.

I think this is also a problem. General dickishness being treated as a masculine trait somehow.

I completely agree that endocrinology plays a significant role in one's disposition, but what you've said completely ignores humanity's psychological variance both within and without their gender groupings. Let's also not pretend as if socialization has no role whatsoever. But even if we accept what you've said it's still missing the point entirely.

"Toxic masculinity" is not (read: should not) be about controlling what someone does, if we're going by the definition I googled. Rather it should be about accepting what some people may do. The whole argument could be summarized as, "Do what you want; don't let your spooks about masculinity control you." That's pretty much it, so what you have to say about endocrinology is interesting but it isn't exactly related. Toxic masculinity is not a theory that is trying to explain human emotion, rather it's an critique on how culture and emotion influence each other in society.

What I'm about to say is pedantry, but it provides enough nuance that it should be pointed out. Technically it would be a lack of responses. The philosophy behind toxic masculinity is individual freedom, so people who seek to combat toxic masculinity would be working to broaden the range of acceptable responses in men.

Then they'd be contributing to toxic masculinity by definition. Very poor (straw) feminists indeed.

Howard is a literal fascist who is hated by everyone here, so he isn't really your average /leftyprole/

t. brainlet

Toxic masculinity to me is the entire "red pill" ideology, people who claim to be manly when they are really just insecure (pseudo)virgins. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being masculine, I hate reddit soyboys. The problem is that places like Zig Forums create a false dichotomy, as if you can't be anything other than those two.

In response to your argument that did likewise. You now wish to bring up variation to obfuscate that. Regardless, much as I would agree that there certainly is variation in male psychological responses, the entire reason we're having this discussion in the first place is that there is a pattern to which a large majority of the group conform.

The evidence from the MTFs would demonstrate this is a lesser factor than you wish to imply.

Except that is exactly what the definition you googled attempts. It proscribes a behavioral code for men. It categorically does not state that men should behave as they wish and is in fact absolutely opposed to such.

Oh here we go, out comes the usual no true scotman. I won't be responding further.

Attached: strawman-ani2.gif (350x400, 147.8K)

Flex Musselman

Oh please.
I have been the subject of this very same accusation by anarcho-kiddies ever since I started participating in this board - and I have been here from the start.
Yet in all of that time, not a single cancerous little anarchist has ever been able to substantiate that, even when challenged to; Exposing it for the simple snarl word that anarcho-kiddies use it as.

To be more precise.
I fundamentally reject the notion of corporatism; Meaning that by simple definition I am not at all aligned with any ideology that actually deserves the label of 'Fascist'.
I also fundamentally reject tribalism and bigotry of any sort; Disqualifying me from being aligned with the petty authoritarians of the Hitler template that the ignorant wrong elevate by calling 'Fascist'.
The only real ideological connection that I have to fascism is my self description as a 'Totalitarian'; However even then one should note that my own subscription to Totalitarianism comes more from Chinese Legalism then it does Mussolini (Mussolini simply being the more quotable on the subject).

I have my supporters.
Really, I would say that the only group that in its entirety does hate me would be the disgusting anarchist rabble that feel the need to inflict themselves on this site; Yet even then, I can assure you that it is a mutually shared hatred.

While I can assure you that I am most certainly a prole.
I do agree that I'm far for average; Especially on this board.

Attached: General_Douglas_MacArthur_6c_1971_issue_U.S._stamp.jpg (170x263, 19.14K)

Attached: 41cfa7fd4352aba4d7d770525ae6be5677b07d980c2cd3e9fee8f74fb932047d.png (449x1197, 66.69K)

I mean, he is right

This

You basically admit to being worse than a fascist.

You're literally just an autist, drop trip

Base Howard

Given that I just demonstrated that I have only a single point of ideological agreement with Fascism (and even then it is more with the Legalists then with Fascists proper), I would be interested in how exactly you figure that.

Honestly this whole 'Fascist' business does remind me much of dealing with SJWs; Any concessions that I make are simple unacceptable short of a total concession.
It is simply bad form and kills the chance of meaningful debate and shared insight.

No.

No again.

Attached: 597.jpg (600x641, 47.97K)

I didn't say you were a fascist. I said you were worse than a fascist.

There would at least be some form of freedom for citizens within the cracks and crevices of fascist society. Not so with the dystopian bullshit you openly support.

This.

Attached: 1cbd68dd433285eccf2c67f5fd5d7bf294506cad56e2c0b7a989c3082f40e349.jpg (341x390, 22.56K)

Attached: 1406669890166.png (327x316, 207.7K)

There used to be a masculinity that resulted in fatherly men. That went out the window with boomers.

First: all standards are arbitrary. That words adds literally nothing.

Second: Implicit in your assertion is that are (or whoever else criticizes "toxic" masculinity) or should be accepted by the listener as the arbiter of social norms. Wanting to be muscular is permitted (by you, essentially), but displaying pride in one's body is not (by you). This is a very childish view of the world which regards anything hurtful or exclusionary as illegitimate, and demands that everything be positive and feel-good. Why should nothing ever be hurtful? Do hurtful things form some separate, illegitimate ontological category?

A very good case can be made that violence, and aggression, and domination have not only always been part of the idea of masculinity, but are its cornerstones (within limits). Why would muscles be considered masculine at all? To look at? No; they witness to the ability to subjugate rivals through the application of physical force. Whitewashing masculinity into some inoffensive, harmless pattern of behavior is the most rank revisionism.

Jesus the left is full of soyboys, aren't they?

This,
This is also why people like Peterson are so popular. It’s not because he’s so good it’s because he gives hope and some deference to males and there’s absolutely no one of substantial status doing that right now. He’s said this himself.
The left isn’t spooked as fuck by third wave feminism. They use the old pol tactic of screaming at the top of their lungs about about an unspoken a priori assumption (the oppression of women is inherent to the gender of men).
Anyone that balks at this is labeled a woman hater and discredited. You see this with stuff like incel hate. Feminists want a matriarchy which is why low status weak men like incels irrationally piss them off.

There’s a better term for toxic masculinity and it’s male disposability. Feminists never use that term because then males would seem like victims of the superstructure and we can’t have that.
Funny how female traits like being gossipy are never described as venomous femininity, are there’s no negative behaviors that are inherently female?

*the left is spooked as fuck

Why the fuck do you always have to reduce your opponent's arguments to "hurt feelings"…? He never made anything resembling the claim that "you shouldn't offend anyone".

Considering "toxic masculinity" literally hurts feelings of feminists yet.

At least we haven't made blatant quackery one of our ideological pillars.

I actually reduced he argument to "I am the arbiter of all social norms", because he made assertions about toxic masculinity substantiated by nothing but his personal taste. The claim that he ahistorically viewed aggression or hurtfulness as not part of the masculine role/ideal was merely an explanation for his standpoint.

No I agree that "toxic masculinity" has quite a bit to do emotions. His criticism of my post is fair because it was just me giving my opinion.

The whole rhetoric of intersectionality and the critique of 'toxic' masculinity would work if it weren't for the fact that the vast majority of women are opportunist Machiavels who don't really even understand the underlying theory behind these concepts, and just use it as a way to gain social dominance in the microcosms of their schools, workplaces, and families.

Attached: omdvuofmmqmouikdgw_batch0127580259.jpg (600x259, 44.53K)

it retains a small little kernel of the correct, useful, valid criticism of bad ideas about masculinity.
admittedly that isnt very helpful when its just usually just a pretense for the stupid shit, but even if its just what you say to justify "every man is my ex boyfriend" its at least bringing up the idea. it might give someone whos not gonna be retarded about it an introduction to start thinking about it. Its the "every man is chad" to the incels "every woman is stacy"

this, basically. the long and short of it is that trying to live up to an imagined ideal of what you're supposed to be because you're a man(or woman, actually) is harmful to yourself and potentially those around you. by the same token, trying to desperately avoid and suppress any aspect of yourself that might start to approach some evil terrible "masculinity" is the same.

I'd quite like it if we could steal the term and make it basically mean 'chad-ism' and the glorification therof, though. The "good" definition of it is basically already there, but this'd be an alternative vulgar simplification of it. Strongly emphasize the idea that your worth as someone who happens to be male isnt dependent on how many strangers and acqauintences you fuck, or how much of a loud asshole you can be. As opposed to implying that all men are basically chad in some form to begin with and demanding that they reform themselves.

not this poster, but a defense quick of this:
as much as it looks like basic retarded mysoginy, consider that it might actually just be general misanthropy. it doesnt imply the vast majority of men arent scum in some similar underlying way that happens to manifest differently.
They are, really. At least, its not entirely wrong to say so. saying this about women is more or less as right as that.

anyone who makes any value judgment about anything publicly is presenting themselves as a arbiter of that thing. that means you too.

>but displaying pride in one's body is not (by you).

displaying excessive pride in your body out of anything come across as more vain than masculine, but besides that they specifically said obsessed which, implies a unhealthy amount of focus. Really using physique as a metric for self worth at all is pretty suspect. let alone other peoples worth.

Right. Anyway the legitimacy (I'm going to assume legitimacy refers to social acceptance)
of behaviors is situational. though as a general rule the most "hurtful" (dangerous or socially disruptive/inappropriate) behaviors have the lowest use value of masculine traits in modern society i.e. being self-sufficient and reliable vs bold and confrontational.

cornerstones of the nebulous concept that changes depending on the context it's used in?

accepting that premise in this age of guns and litigation. in what social situation outside of sports, law enforcement, and the military are you "subjugating rivals"?

He’s had this happen to him before lol but he keeps liking girls he can’t meet in person

That post isn't saying women are scum, it's saying they like social power, and feminist rhetoric gives them that power. It just sucks they only use it to like, win divorce cases or make their boss give them a raise.

Attached: bwebdbllpnwppqaeya_batch0598738666.jpg (500x688, 43.59K)

Nice tactical nihilism: Social norms change, therefore they don't exist, if you're to be believed.

Your thinking is very sloppy. You confuse an ideal with a tactic. Yes: pure muscle power is less useful than it used to be, since we can amplify the power of our bodies with weapons, but that has nothing to do with what is in people's minds.

In peoples' minds, and more importantly, in men's minds, being physically strong is masculine, and that idea has its roots in a time when physical strength counted for a lot more than it does today. The ancient practical purpose informs the ideal, yet it is part of the ideal itself, which the sanitized notion of masculinity sweeps under the rug, as if the muscular apparatus were some random gift from the gods, popped down from the sky one day, for us to gaff at.

Here we once again see the unexamined application of bourgeois (in the actual sense) values: the body is to be scoffed at, while the mind is everything. Yet why is the ability to quote Phaedo or contrast ZFC with Category Theory "more" valuable than being able to squat twice one's body weight? The former two are valuable in the context of domestication which defines a man's utility chiefly by way of his economic usefulness (with a sprinkling of genteel prejudice against physical labor). Yet to accept as valid and internalize this external locus of meaning and to submit to it is a deeply unmanly because submissive act in itself.

You might see the man who has pride in his physique as boorish and banal, but, even if unintellectual, if he is bold and self-assured in this pride, even and especially if he denigrates any of his competitors, he thereby embodies the masculine ideal very well, notwithstanding your moral objections.

I honestly don't care about shitty women and the guy crying. I don't know what or why the guy was crying but I don't care. In this society you have to put on a face or else you'll be seen as weak (potentially but who knows)

toxic masculinity: insecurity due to physical and emotional inferiority, hostility, closed-mindedness, hatred of the male form
positive masculinity: self esteem, acceptance, security in personal achievement, celebration of masculine form, naturally antagonistic towards misogyny and homophobia

Attached: all truly strong people are kind.png (711x359, 270.41K)

Is that from vagabond? sweet comic.

Fag.

*expanding galaxy brain*

I don't know how you could possibly draw that conclusion, this entire conversation presupposes the existence of social norms.

but the point is that it doesn't count as much today. Which even you seem capable of admitting. you just insist it's important and universal because it's important YOU.

that not at all what I said, as important as your mind is it is still occupies a body that it would benefit you to keep healthy.

that's a hilariously specific example by the way. but we already established what physical strength doesn't count for as much as it used to.

>(with a sprinkling of genteel prejudice against physical labor)

I don't think most people who are employed as physical labors have the time or money to maintain the exercise and nutritional regimen necessary for that. some may not even have access to the food and besides that the also have no practical need to either.

and one is external and the other isn't because you say so? their both external anyway since cultural values are a matter of historical contingency.

so wouldn't conforming to any societal norm be and act of submission?

meh, I mean not really. it depends on how much.

Why not? When the conditioned behaviour of men affect the well-being of women? They reject attemps of men to do, because men have controlled and treated women as objects throughout history.

[source needed]