Left Wikipedia

rationalwiki is ehh, i'd call them liberals

Fuck leftism, there needs to be a Marxist-Leninist wiki that delves deep into the secret schemes of the bourgeoisie and exposes them. It could fight the bourgeois narratives on many fronts: exposing the falsified and buried histories of the bourgeoisie, exposing the open breadths and depths of modern capitalist exploitation, exposing modern anti-worker conspiracies, exposing imperialist lies against resisting countries, exposing the opportunism and infiltration present in Western "left" circles, promoting ongoing workers struggles…
The only problem is that a wiki would be so effective as a propaganda outlet for Marxists (as long as it was treated as a combined wiki/weekly publication) that its operators would almost instantly become the targets of intense surveillance and COINTEL. And in most Western countries advocating real communist stances (support for DPRK, Hezbollah, communism in general, or any number of low-key illegal speech) can literally get you arrested for support of terrorism or some other BS charge. A Marxist wiki would have to be run (at least eventually) by a serious and credible communist party, and it would have to adhere to very strict security and editorial standards. There is presently no organization with the funds or theoretical rigor needed for such a site, and existing software (such as wikimedia) would likely require some potentially complex changes to the source code. Maintainers of such a site would need to get it right from the very beginning, possibly running it from exile with servers located in Vietnam or somewhere not easily in the CIA's reach.

And how would you do this with no place to organize or build the communist narrative? A Marxist wiki would actually enhance our abilities to conduct PR wars on Wikipedia because we could centralize our efforts in the Marxist wiki and then simply cut and paste stuff onto the main Wiki. If rule-adhering edits from Marxists got banned on Wikipedia, it would only serve to show that the bourgeois internet is completely stifled and censored.

This. Marxism Leninism is the only true extremism and the only extremism that still scares porky to death

fuck off with your buzzwords idiot.

There's Wikirouge but it's only in french :
wikirouge.net/Accueil

Really digging the layout.

Neat, seems very sparse and aimless though. I mean fuck, there's no article on NATO or the CIA as far as I can tell.
wikirouge.net/wiki/index.php?search=nato&title=Spécial:Recherche&go=Lire
wikirouge.net/wiki/index.php?search=cia&title=Spécial:Recherche&profile=default&fulltext=1
Must be abandoned or run by idiots.

This is relevant.

Let's give us an hypothetical article: CIA activities in country X. At first it will probably be a few lines taken straight out of Palgrave's Encyclopedia of Imperialism or whatever. Then people will start to complement it as we read more stuff and want to share what we discovered. With time old, questionable citations are replaced with better ones. Eventually we'll have a lot of organize sources and writing sustaining a left-wing, anti-imperialist perspective on the topic. Then we can easily create a Wikipedia equivalent, or just get parts of it and spread to Wiki articles about the CIA, about countries X, about CIA activities during that period of time, about imperialism, etc.

It's a good way to *organize knowledge*. There is plenty of high-quality content out there, explicitly left-wing or not, containing a lot of information that supports (and expands) our worldview. But it's not organized. It's isolated. It's in an academic work that no one reads, it's in an old book that is out of print, it's in a letter by a major thinker that we neglect. With a Wiki, this knowledge can be organized, synthetized and eventually used elsewhere.

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That's probably due to a lack of active people, a problem that projects like this always face

rationalwiki is such a bizarre relic of something like Atheism+/SRSish liberal snarkism with an embarrassing tendency to insert epic bacon humor into everything

I think there would have to be priorities. Max priority goes to building wiki pages for countries and political organizations that are presently under imperialist or fascist assault. Then major historical events, major theoretical issues, debunking major capitalist lies, etc.
There are also some resources to pull from– we can archive the Soviet Encyclopedia and similar publications, maybe using OCR software. The Soviet Encyclopedia is not ideal IMO, it frankly seems to go a bit soft on the capitalists in some entries I've read, but it would be a guideline. Set up a mirror of the Marxist internet archive with better software, epubs, etc.
A Marxist wiki would dispense with liberal delusions of "neutrality" and would have sections in articles for analysis, party line, etc. There would be an article format for original research and reporting submissions, and original content could be cited in the encyclopedic entries.
I am spitballing here, but I can not stress this enough: a really legitimate Marxist wiki would need to GET IT RIGHT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. Frankly it is irresponsible to discuss such plans on Zig Forums. Some idiot opportunist reading this with a bit of cash could shell out for a Godaddy server or something and shepherd gullible fools to his wiki, resulting in some Trotskyite abortion of a site that gets every editor and visitor placed in a CIA database, killing steam for the whole concept.
However, I think really there should be multiple Marxist wikis run by different parties, allowing for free criticism, infrastructural redundancy, and solidification of different party stances (helping clarify who is actually an ally to workers). They could copy each other's content in most places, but make different edits where the party line differs.

But yes, think how much fucking time "Marxists" waste on here, Twitter, reddit and elsewhere, all of their contributions and posts being buried in a dump of redundant and repetitive content, no central narrative, no investigations or citations, no ability to build on past efforts. Then look at the few stand-out threads where someone put the effort in and the thread lasted a long time– like the DPRK thread. The DPRK thread has probably done more to counter bourgeois propaganda than basically the rest of Zig Forums combined, simply because it was a dumping ground for solid info and the tankposter took his time to look shit up.

Very obvious logo.

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On a similar note, I was looking at RationalWiki and they have this news compilation segment on the front page:

rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:What_is_going_on_in_the_world?
rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:What_is_going_on_in_the_blogosphere?

I immediately thought about a counter-propaganda equivalent of that. Whoever takes this project ahead could have, for example, something similar to that, but dedicated for Syria or the Middle-East in general, and just include everything countering mainstream bullshit. Articles on the subject, academic research, speeches, blog posts, decent tweets or social media posts, everything (as long as it's backed by facts of course). One for Syria, one for Brazil, one for China, one for North Korea, and so on.

This way you could not only attack propaganda, but also create a counter-narrative for future reference. I remember how many lies were told during the Iraq War on a daily fucking basis, how much wrong information was on the air coming from all types of sources, but as time goes by we tend to forget about those and focus on the major stuff only, and then it becomes easy for them to repeat the same shit again. But we shouldn't, because even Bin Laden's Bond villain underground bunker should be kept alive in our memories as a reminder to not be so gullible.

Besides that and the regular Wiki functions, a website like this could, with time, contain Reading Lists, bibliographical reviews, political guides (How to unionize, how to preserve your privacy online, knowing your rights, things like that), tutorials, debates and speeches, etc. It could be a very useful tool, if done correctly.

Think such a site should have a portal for articles on a marxist perspective, and one for the anarchist perspective. Both ideologies are likely to have a different enough perspective on topics to warrant this.

Exactly. Now let me repeat myself, since it's obvious how effective such a site could be, it should also be obvious how dangerous it would be to run. Westerners are presently operating under the delusion that they can't get killed or tortured for their communist speech because of the constitution or some similar shit. That isn't true at all. A communist in Britain/America/etc who acts like they can conduct their propaganda in broad daylight is no different than the communists of Germany or Italy who got absolutely wrecked when fascism went full-blown. A successful Marxist wiki would become the target of every NATO alphabet agency and private Pinkerton outfit. Major contributors would be at least as hunted as Julian Assange, if not moreso. I mean think of this, if the Marxist wiki allowed original reporting, it would necessarily include investigative reporting, meaning potential leaks as well. This is why I want to seriously discourage that random people reading this thread start such a website without taking deep and multilayered security and redundancy measures. The question of where and how to host such a wiki is a very complex one. Actually one of the first tasks upon its establishment would be further research into security measures befitting communists, legal boundaries to advocacy of communism (which speech laws will we have to break, which ones will we avoid), and some deliberation over rules for contributions.

Another thing to consider is patronage from anti-imperialist countries. As Western censorship and fascism ramp up, it may become impossible to even access socialist websites without a VPN or something (socialist news is already getting shadowbanned on google, facebook, twitter, etc). After a certain point you may as well ask for hosting from Cuba or something. Or just straight up give the site to them, the PCC would certainly be more trustworthy than any Western party.

No, anarchists want a wiki, they can make their own. No fence-sitting or delusional (opportunist) "left unity."

I'm willing to lay a wager that any project like this will be almost immediately infiltrated by danger haired trannies and their handmaidens and repurposed, in exactly the same way as rationalwiki suffered.

If that happened it wouldn't be Marxist. Praise of Stalin, Castro, KJU, etc. usually scares away liberals. A correct party line on trans rights could be constructed by studying the approach of the DDR and modern Cuba (both very progressive on trans rights) to the issue. To be frank, brain-damaged Westerners can't be trusted to analyze trans issues themselves, they are too susceptible to either liberal hysteria or a reactionary knee-jerk against it.

Except on reddit. Or libcom. Or twitter. Or here.

/r/socialism is the Trot zone, /r/communism is ultras not liberals.

Literally liberals who hate Stalin, Castro, Mao, etc.

Liberal trans activists have been mounting a months-long smear campaign against Marxist-Leninists on twitter, even against trans MLs. ☭TANKIE☭ twitter (at least certain cadres of it) is actually very good proof gender-obsessed liberals can't mix with Marxists.

fuck off Zig Forums

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Ok. So we got the ideas and formulation to actually work on something, but we need dedication/organization. I think that the best way we can go about this is by allowing an user to create the wiki and with people that they can coordinate with in REAL LIFE. Doesn't have to be from just this board, but whoever takes up the task of being the creator will provide consistent maintentance and content (or at least incentives like making an article for Debord, but not filling anything in. People will then see the lack of stuff in his article and contribute) for the wiki. After we establish that, anons can add as well as remove stuff in passing and slowly grow.

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That's where we step in, instead of wasting our precious free time telling each other to read zizek we can contribute to the wiki.

This makes no sense for a server setup, you want as much compartmentalization as possible. I'm currently doing some reading about how to set up a secure website on clearnet. I'm also going to investigate the wikimedia source code to see how easy it is to reduce the amount of records it keeps.

One aspect of redundancy is that we will always need a plan for what to do when the wiki gets taken down. So "consistency" is actually not necessarily a goal. Our goal is that the wiki can survive takedowns and pop back up, with many mirrors and backups available.

No reason to use a random obscure French site, it makes sense to start with fresh slate.

I think whoever has the skills and acquaintances necessary to kick off the project needs to come here first and ask for articles before it's even made public. Until then the rest of can just focus on our studies, but we keep in mind to 1. Keep track of how the things we read could be translated to an article, make the right annotations and mark the pages 2. Gather books, articles, essays, encyclopedias and so on for research later.

This way we can keep up productivity at the early stages. We write about what we know, we learn about what needs to be written. Eventually we can start Discord or whatever to direct those efforts. People can't see yet another abandoned, lazy Wiki because they won't be interested. There are way too many left-wing websites that are never updated. If we have something nice to show, we can go around posting it elsewhere and help it grow.

The wiki should be on a weekly publication system. All ongoing edits are kept secret on an account-only part of the site, and only finalized edits that have undergone a review process are published to the weekly changes. Before the schedule is put into place, we could have a minimum setup going with ten or more example pages to learn from and build on, as well as rules and such.

Discord is an NSA honeypot. No. Just use the discussion pages or something.

Danger-hairs, the lot of 'em

They seem keen on providing target practice for the Turkish army and providing Muke with shitposts to read

Actually, what you're describing is the anarchist community (who have been absolutely overrun by the danger-haired) behaving in a manner consistent with anarchists. The Marxist-Leninst groups have their own problems with danger-hairs.

Call me Zig Forums all you like. It does nothing to change the fact that danger-hairs are showing up here to push their shit, they are doing so persistently and they are doing so in increasing numbers. Your desire to sweep this very obvious fact under the run makes me think you are a part of the problem.

Sure comrade, was just shooting off ideas. I got no experience with this so I suppose you're right.

This.

go away, we are having a somewhat serious discussion. go do gamergate or something.

Pfffft, you're fantasizing and getting upset that someone has injected a dose of reality into your dreaming. This board tried something very similar to this proposed project when bunkermag was set up. It died from lack of interest, remember, danger-hair?

Last time I checked a lot of the “political scholar” types that are actually members of the wikiproject are leftists.

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wtf I love the new soviet wikipedia now

(You)

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That's a great idea, we definitely need an article about Cultural Marxism and other right-wing conspiracy theories.

There's so much to write about. NGOs, Think-Thanks, alphabet soups, union shootouts, colonialism, liberal support for Fascism, corporate scandals, the KKK and the police working together, propaganda, war, imperialism, theory, all the many importance socialists erased from our history.

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important* fuck

YES

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What is this, a picture for ants?

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correct!

marxism leninism is literally religious conservativism lmao

Rationalwiki is bizarre in how it will at times criticize US imperialism but then wholeheartedly defend the presidents who were responsible for it.

Wait a minute, didn't a bunch of anons like a year-and-a-half ago already make one? I remember a while back I was linked to it and it was only a few pages, but supposedly "growing".

there's also this
marxistpedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
but it totally fails at what was discussed here

This is a great idea. I've been thinking a lot lately about leftist organization via the internet. A wiki would help a lot in that.

We could start working on this, but it's just for Marxists. A broader leftist wiki would be more worthwhile imo.

You could create such a wiki with different sections of every article containing the different ideologies and their different views.

Do people actually read that horseshit for information?

Tbh what we should be doing is editing wikipedia articles. They're filled to the brim with right wing trash sources, and considering most of us here are relatively well read, we should be seeking to provide different outlooks on history via popular mediums. There are a few very good wikipedia articles that demonstrate anti-USSR and ""pro-USSR"" (although I would just call it mostly disinterested fact reporting) views that have made it much better for me to find easily digestible information and weigh the pros and cons of evidence.

I'm using the USSR as an example here because it's usually the most shat on as a beacon of what socialism represents.

Not the general public, but people ideologically inclined towards them, yes. And the reasons for that is because they want to learn how to back their stuff up, respond to criticisms, things like that.

No, as I said before, it has to have the correct focus and tactics from the outset.

No it wouldn't, in order to maintain a wiki you need an objective stance on things, different factions of "the left" have outright different versions of history that they base their politics on.

see:

It seems really useless, all you're doing is making a site so that you can copy paste onto wikipedia. A "PR war" with wikipedia is an extremely far-fetched fantasy that doesn't need to happen when the more direct solution is to start actually doing things that normal people are going to see.

we have wikipedia

Honestly this talk of a Zig Forums wiki is really just jerking off because people have fantasies about having stuff "but with added marxism" for some reason. No point in making an entire wiki that no one will read seriously. The real fight is promoting intellectual honesty in face of bourgeois historical ideologues in the mainstream, one of these being wikipedia which attracts millions of visitors and has a relatively respectable community of fact checkers.

Yeah because we can totally take down capitalism and the largest military power in history, but having material to edit Wikipedia articles with is a fantasy.

This was already discussed here, having a platform to organize and compile leftist knowledge IS the pre-requisite for reaching the people elsewhere.

Read

That's quite literally what I point out in my post as being the most effective route, not some really dumb snowflake wiki that no one will read so you can launch a propaganda campaign against wikipedia. Also lol at your "hurr durr you believe we can take down capitalism through disciplined scientific approach to theory but we can't wage some hypothetical PR war!?"

You're not understanding. Places like RationalWiki aren't compilations of knowledge in order to fight power, they're literally to jerk off people you agree with ideologically and make funny satire articles.

And this just opens up another question: how come people on here who want others to contribute intellectually aren't contributing intellectually by editing wikipedia articles, which are going to immediately be open to a wide audience and not just a Zig Forums microcosm? We already have the intellectual basis for making counterarguments.

There are differing levels of use here.

Then you misread the post you quoted, because editing Wikipedia concomitantly is an idea we agreed upon here.

Will leftists read it? Will leftists have access to sourced information on leftist perspectives through it? Then that's enough. We're not trying to win the general public you dummy, leftists are not supposed to read metapedia either.

It's not a war AGAINST wikipedia, you idiot. Not one person made that point.

If you're going to lol at something, lol @ yourself for being such a fucking retard that you misread a post that was literally calling for us to centralized and organize efforts elsewhere before we can push that narrative to other places, including Wikipedia - which was the point he was making - and making this central to your dumb argument.

They're compilations of DATA meant to build a NARRATIVE that they can then push ELSEWHERE. You are obviously not a very intelligent person, but the difficulty you're having in grasping this simple concept is astonishing.

I won't bother repeating myself here

TL;DR you're confused, you're not grasping the central idea and you're wasting our time by having us explain it to you again and again.

What I'm imagining is a wiki recording things of special concern to people sharing our rough political coordinates. A collective notebook organizing ideas from various left-wing thinkers, providing leftist commentary on various subjects, providing ideological critique of common "memes" in contemporary political dialogue… It could be a place to organize various perspectives on issues and collectively build a strong leftist narrative.

Wikipedia isn't going to accept us writing a bunch of highly specific material on Stirner, Marx, Kropotkin, Zizek, Cockshott, Wolff or whoever else we're suddenly interested in. It would be a lot more casual than the material on that site as well.

Read the thread, that is only a small part of what was discussed. Stop shooting your mouth off before reading everything.

no, its a good idea and when we're handling good sources its also a good propaganda tool, we can refer to it when we try to explain a point and want to add some extra information

Because they're not Marxist you fucking dunce.

bump

ok, Dokuwiki or mediawiki ?
how do we host ? how do we collect money to maintain it online ?
let's talk practicality comrades
honestly think making it an explicitly leftypol wiki would be enough to kickstart it. we're the one going to use it, why aim to make "the leftist wiki", if it grows well it will become the defacto leftist wiki anyway

Not that I'd ever in a million years credit Rationalwiki with being this woke, but presidents really aren't responsible for that shit. Every anti-war, anti-intervention candidate who ever runs, whether he's coming from a peace and love or america-first perspective, winds up continuing the same foreign policy whether he likes it or not. The deep state is fucking real.

mediawiki, more popular so more support online

this is complicated, maybe a TPB-style setup with a proxy server that routes to the real server

No, dead in the water unless it picks a real concrete political line.

To be honest most users here are lazy brainlets, most posters here would not and can not contribute.

Regular Wikipedia is already leftpedia

no.