I'm an MD. Why would any specialist with a decent skill set support communism? Seriously, how would I get paid, when I can't actualy produce stuff like a dumb prole?
I'm an MD. Why would any specialist with a decent skill set support communism? Seriously, how would I get paid...
Angel Reed
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Lucas Morris
You do produce something though and you are still a prole (Unless you are one of those burger doctors that owns a stake in a medical insurance firm, then you are petit-bourgeois): you provide a service (in this case medical care) and you are paid through wage labour. Now you raise the question "well I don't produce product", in terms of material product you are right but you still produce a labour-valued service. I would recommend the first two chapters of Cockshott's "Towards a New Socialism": he uses the medical profession as an example of how to handle calculation of service industries (through the lense of the british NHS).
Also if you don't work for a statewide service like the NHS or an equivalent, you have the incentive to be a socialist since you are still at the beaconing call of the bourgeois class: they decide your wages, your work hours and your conditions. Now being at the behest of the bourgeois state, while better, is not ideal: we need to move towards a new socialised healthcare system run by doctors in an autonomous manner.
Jonathan Walker
since NHS pays lower wages and is up my ass every step of the way, I really am not, private practice is the best option for me
Isaiah Taylor
The wages of the NHS currently has far more to do with the actions of the bourgeois state (public sector pay freeze and all that) rather than the system itself. I understand you wish to work in the private sector, decades of government policy has been to either degrade the NHS compared to the private sector, or to marketise the institution itself. However such superiority of the private sector exists purely because of government manipulation of material conditions, no because of some inherent superiority of the private sectors.
A proper healthcare service would be autonomous of the state, run in a syndicalist manner by doctors and other healthcare professionals.
Kayden Smith
A baboon broke his little baboon leg smoking baboon crack! Chop chop, fix it for the poor little baboon!
Lincoln Green
lel, that's pretty neat, I wonder how many lefties would ever support that. Im eagerly awaiting second opionions here.
Landon Bell
Most people here do not support the bourgeois state and support the introduction of socialised structures: I say autonomous not because it is entirely separate, but because it is a private sector entity but because it is run and administered through either a soviet (as in workers' council, not as in of the USSR) or syndicalist structure. This was actually the original plan for the NHS (run through a series of cooperatives) but Nye bevan never got to properly implement it because Labour lost the 1951 election and the lack of money.
Easton Harris
(The following rant was a knee-jerk reaction to the usual "I'm a doctor I shouldn't be paid the same as the janitor" bullshit. I kept it because it's still sorta relevant. Read the actual response below)
If you really are a doctor you should realise that your job requires the support of nurses, janitors, engineers, chemists, scientists, factory workers, construction workers, utility workers, and essentially every other worker in society. Your labour is no more important than theirs. Why should you be paid so much more?
Supposedly, the reason you are paid more is because of your education. You have gone through a greater effort and expense to educate yourself, your labour is in shorter supply, and so you are paid more. But your education is also a product of society, and society has gone through a much greater effort and expense to educate you. By that logic you are already indebted to society, so why should you then demand even more from it in order to use the education you have been given?
The real reason you are paid more is to shut you up, and by extension to silence those below you. To differentiate you from the supposed 'lesser workers' and to make you forget that you are the same part of the web of production that reproduces all of society. A socialist society would abolish wage labour, and instead distribute the goods of society by the logic of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
(End rant)
Communism follows the logic of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." Money and wage labour is abolished, and resources are instead distributed according to peoples needs. You don't have to pay for food, housing, healthcare, etc. because our industry has already developed to the point where we vastly overproduce all of these basic goods and services. So it is more logical, efficient, and humane to manage these resources scientifically than to rely on the faulty logic of the market, with all of its inherent contradictions.
Workers aren't just people who produce 'stuff', like cars and phones and food. They also 'produce' services like cooking and education and healthcare through labour, as this user said. Under communism, you would get the same access to society's resources as every other worker (which would likely amount to way more than you get currently), and your work would be just as appreciated (possibly even more so).
Jeremiah Wilson
Porky doesn't give a shit about your merit or education. All he cares about is your labor as a commodity to be bought and sold on the market. If you're getting paid well, I can guarantee you that the bourgeoisie aren't happy about it and are actively seeking ways to either automate or saturate your field. You'll support socialism if you want to avoid the inevitable fucking Porky has in store for you.
Easton Flores
So why become a doctor if I am just going to get the same ration allotment as a mongo who just sweeps the floors and never had an education?
This is why Communism will never work it is illogical.
Caleb Cook
Yeah because that's what happened in the USSR lmao, everyone just wanted to become a ditch digger, retard.
William Hill
USSR gave special treatment to certain groups it was not real communism
Daniel Martinez
Because it'd mean you're a doctor. That's awesome as fuck by itself. Do you have no aspirations in life?
Nicholas Howard
Doctors are literally guilds and the curriculum to get into and pass medical school is made so precipitously long and grueling so as to artificially limit the labor supply. It has nothing to do with quality control and more about discouraging people from entering the profession. The requirements to learn chemistry, physics and such things as anatomy and physiology are close to useless. My parents and other doctors have told me they never use any of their schoolbook learning, and only learned how to be doctors in their residency AFTER graduating medical school.
Josiah Howard
Before you come to us bitching about communism, why don't you actually read what it is first?
Kevin Baker
If you let every schmuck off the street into a residency program the results would be disastrous I assure you.
Zachary Roberts
???
Grayson Wright
"No"
James Sullivan
this is why the """intellectual elite""" need to work in the fields for a few months
mao was right
Logan Moore
The Chinese intellectual elite went on to become billionaires in the current day. Lot of good that did them.
Blake Howard
Jfc make up your minds.
Nathaniel Bennett
we're talking about people who have finished med school, they're not "every schmuck off the street"
Jason Anderson
Medical school is a necessary mechanism to filter out the people who can't hack it. I don't understand what you're getting at. Even socialist countries required prospective doctors to go to medical school.
Oliver Ortiz
You mean the ones that evaded the Red Guards and survived the cultural revolution? The ones that are now being threatened by Xi Jinping, the most powerful leader of China since Mao? Yeah they're real well off…
Sebastian Hall
The post I was replying to was implying that medical school was a complete waste of time. I am arguing that it is a necessary filter and barrier to entry. You have reading comprehension issues. Are you a floor sweeper per chance?
Easton Long
...
Leo Perry
I don't know what ☭TANKIE☭s get at on any given day.
"Ehhh… just go without the cast for your ankle comrade! Do it for Lenin!"
Liam Rodriguez
I'm not challenging the idea of medical school. I'm critiquing its current form under capitalism that serves only to create artificial scarcity instead safer environments.
It also means that as a doctor you have to work harder and longer to make up for the labour shortfall.
Hunter Lopez
Which is the best part. You're helping people who have it rough. They'll love you for it.
You'll probably get extra perks for stressful work. People will want to reward you for your effort over and above the societal mean.
No mate, you'd actually be a doctor.
Is that how you get your satisfaction in life? By comparing yourself with brain damaged mongoloids?
Leo Taylor
tbh doctors may be somewhat artificially scarce under the current arrangement but they will always be scarce no matter what due to the nature of the job
Robert Kelly
Not an argument my illiterate anarchist
Carter Perry
Your contempt for others is disgusting. Medical school is necessary training but just about anyone could do it with a proper bio or biochem undergrad education. And anyone could do THAT with proper foreknowledge which comes down to having wealth and leisure to study. You're just treating being a physician and the training like you have some essence in you that sets you apart. All you really had was training like any other person and the good fortune to pay for it.
John Clark
This isn't true at all. It's not simply a matter of training. It's a matter of keeping up with the training. Which obviously not everyone is equipped to do. Not everyone can become a doctor. Nowhere in the world is this contentious. Not even in socialist countries.
Jace Nelson
These threads are getting tiresome.
Kevin Clark
If you spent all of those years practicing the profession I would think you would at least take a couple of days reading economic theory. We got everything from Marx, Proudhon and Cockshott to read for economic theory.
That is unless you are a hack that can't read for shit or a Zig Forumsack false flag trying to bait again.
Jeremiah Watson
...
Luke Brown
Algorithmic diagnosis is going to make medical practice a lot easier in the future. I imagine this will help solve the scarcity problem (if there is one) to some degree.
Juan White
there are countless ways to incentivize people to perform skilled labor that doesn't let them accumulate wealth or exploit others
you could receive a multiplier to your labour vouchers based on how knowledge-intensive and stressful your job is, as well as various non-monetary benefits such as nice vacations and prioritized rationing (like in the USSR)
Xavier Parker
Parker Walker
You are a medical kulak, can't wait for you to get reeducated in the GULAG.
idk, ask the 70,000 doctors who live in cuba
Angel Moore
Everyone in Cuba clamors to be a doctor so they can get 20 dollars worth of ration allotment a month instead of the usual 10. Many Cuban doctors opt to drive taxis these days after the increase of tourism to Cuba because they make a hundred in month in tips. Makes you think.
Jose Cooper
Just stop posting, you're embarrassing yourself.
Landon Rodriguez
from the looks of this thread he's not much smarter than them either, so it's no wonder he wants to feel superior.
Matthew Campbell
ITT: Labor aristocrat doesn't like communism because it interferes with his superiority complex
Kevin Lee
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Easton Watson
Socialism is not about paying everyone the same. In the first instance it's about ending wage labour, and markets. In principle this needn't directly affect doctors as they are not primarily wage labourers (at least in my country), and again in principle don't depend on income from owning MOP. They offer their services for payment, and they often do so independently. They would logically continue to do so even after the abolition of wage labour.
Now if we get rid of markets, the payment doctors would get would not be mediated by the market, but would be part of a plan. To the degree that the amount of doctors who will provide services is dependent on the material rewards they receive, the payment the plan would account for paying the doctors enough so that enough people are attracted to the profession, and the amount of medical services people need ends up being provided. And certainly when it comes to doctors those demands of society are not very elastic. I realize this sounds a bit like a quasi-market, but the fact is that not every job can be done by just about anyone; it at minimum require time invested in education, and a degree of natural aptitude. Not everyone can stand blood, to name but one thing. You need to incentivize the people with the aptitude to invest the time in schooling and then devote their life to the profession. And we need incentives that appeal to people as they are today - and we are today a very materialistic, wealth obsessed culture. Otoh, if you have the right school-to-profession pipeline, and other societal pressures (honor and status or whatever), you can actually get a lot of doctors without paying exorbitant sums. Cuba proves this.
This would go away as a more communist culture develops, and people become incentivized through less alienated methods, but that's something we can't quite conceive of yet since we are the products of capitalist society.
Colton Bailey
You are already dumb and a prole, ironic.
This thread is full of retards.
Logan Thompson
hey look! Another i don't know how communism works so i ask stupid questions, but commies who actually study communism are always wrong when defining communism and its workings, thread.
Jason Sanders
shut up, if youre an MD helping people should be a bigger priority than profit
Julian Torres
How do you think there were fucking doctors in any socialist society? People don't become doctors just to get paid, or at least they shouldn't, but they do in capitalist hellholes like America where everyone is corrupted.
Ian Wilson
Theres a shit ton of stupid doctors and emotionally callous doctors. You can easily apply to a low tier medical school as well or take loops holes like studying in medical schools abroad in europe or the caribbean or becoming a DO. All doctors mystify theor profession so fucking much because it boosts their ego and increases the perceived value of their profession. This is without going into the fact that an effective public health system alone is many times more useful than relying on doctors (barefoot doctors in china and cubas health system). Besides that many procedures that doctors do can be done by trained nurses and other nedical professionals for a hell of a lot cheaper
Joseph Green
If you think thats what communism is you have a very low lQ.
Christopher Thomas
then being a doctor isnt for you lmao, I would hate to have a doctor with that mindset, youd probably be shit
you ever wonder why cuba has such great health care?
Justin Cooper
Aren't PAs basically doctors minus the 'MD' tag?
Chase Morales
I have very bad news for you if you think society is going to function correctly because people "want to help each other" and are going to spend eight years training their ass off to do so with no material benefit. We got to this point in the first place because people wanted nothing more than to exploit each other.
is the only person who even attempted to give a rational response to OP's question. We all understand how awful capitalism is, what's very disturbing is the lack of actual good solutions any of you have, most you want to replace capitalism with something even worse.
Caleb White
Edgar H. Schein has dealt with the field of organizations, mainly researching social relationship in capitalist enterprises, focusing on how to increase productivity of workers. For that finding out about motivation and desires of workers was important.
en.wikipedia.org
In his book "Organizational Psychology" he points out that workers in mines and in factories value more the social relationships they have with each other than any monetary incentive beyond a livable wage. He cites example of organizational form of mining coal without modern machinery which uses highly cohesive groups, which the men liked. When the new coal-mining machine was brought, the groups were dispersed and men were distant from each other by tens of meters. They did not like it.
I have only link to other newer book.
libgen.io
And then there is a powerful psychological component of feeling useful. If you feel useless, then no amount of money would alleviate it. Only a direct participation in social labour where you get clear message about your usefulness.
Even happiness and money relationship seem to plateau around 80,000 USD/year income. Because then you do not have to worry about paying rent and bills. So your quality of life increases. Again you proved that you know nothing about human motivation, since you assert that people do difficult tasks because of higher monetary reward. Why people become nurses, even though it is really hard and demanding work? Because they enjoy helping other people. I doubt that you are a doctor at all, and instead you are some glorified facial and breast tissue reconstructor with a MD.
Lincoln Campbell
I'm not a Marxist/socialist anymore per se (I'm really just disillusioned with politics in general tbh). However I agree with both sides to some extent (inb4 la centrist meme).
1. You need to compensate doctors, nurses, etc. adequately in order to incentivize people to become doctors, nurses, etc.
However
2. I do not want a doctor who is only in it for the money to operate on me. Here in Canada dental care is privatized. And I already feel like dentists don't give a single fuck about my oral health or my wallet. They're just in it to make lots of money.
Evan Adams
What the fuck is an MD? I swear to god I wish americans with their obsession over abbreviations all need to be shot.
A service is a commodity too
Overdose yourself.
Ayden Stewart
I'm sure many people will become doctors in such setting, hearing such encouragement
nice contradiction, bud
to create algorithms you need to have enough data to base your algorithms on. Theres simply not enough clinical trials to prove stuff.
hahahha nice
someone's a jelous twat
the same should be said about streetsweepers
OP here. I made this thread to get a simple answer. All I got is a mixture of theory and butthurt. My problem with lefty theories is that it's totaly incoherent, everyone has a different idea of what actualy communism is. Well if you want to call me a kulak or something, pls do, I'm an oncologist, so I get my fair share of suffering.
Jacob Barnes
My last dental bill was fucking crazy. I paid over $200 CAD for a filling. And $135 CAD for a dental exam that took 5 minutes, no X-Ray. What the fuck? Since when is a dentist's time worth $27/minute for anything? I know he has a receptionist to pay for, dental hygienists on his payroll, he has to cover electricity, rent, etc. on the unit in the strip mall but come the fuck on.
If dental care was public here in Canada, the government would negotiate prices directly with the dentists and the dentists wouldn't be able to gouge us like they do now.
My dentist told me that the prices are regulated by the dental association. But the dental association is owned by the dentists, not the government. And my dentist is actually charging a mark-up over the "suggested pricing guide." It's not an actual regulation. It's just a suggestion.
All the dentists are greedy fucks though. You have to go to a dental student in order to get a deal. I don't want to trust my teeth with someone inexperienced like a guinea pig. What if they fuck up? No offense to young aspiring medical professionals but those are some sharp tools.
Cooper King
Important in the economic sense. An hour of a doctors work is just as important as an hour of someone cleaning the sewers or building a road. Society cannot exist without either of them.
You don't need clinical trails, dumbfuck. You just take every confirmed case of any disease and store all the data, pictures etc about it. A clinical trial is only necessary to test new medicine, not to collect data about disease symptoms and detecting diseases. You should fucking know, even if you do not find the disease until the person has passed away, you will find out eventually in time. This is a diagnosis, you then save this with all the pictures and tests and values you have measured from that person, which can easily be used in machine learning to make an algorithm that can analyse data and make a diagnosis, just like half of your job.
No you didn't, you came here with an opinion that you do not want to change, being "I dont want socialism because I make lots of money".
Wrong, everybody agrees on what communism is, just not on how to get there. Don't think something is "incoherent" just because you don't understand it. Being smart in one field doesn't make you smart in all fields, which people often think.
Jason Hall
I gave you an answer but you ignored it, communism doesn't mean equal wages or whatever
Jaxson Stewart
Communism is the abolishment of money and wages, lad. Full communism doesn't have labour vouchers either, thats lower-stage communism / socialism.
Jaxson Green
fukken Zig Forums saving the name
Isaiah Jackson
meh, OP obviously means transitional stage socialism and not FALC so whatever
William Ward
OP let me ask you.
Would you stop being a doctor if you got paid the same as everybody else? Or is this a case of "I would still be a doctors but everybody else is only in it for the money, unlike me, obviously"
Justin Lewis
So, what would be someones motivation to work as an doctor in communist society? Or work at all? What would be my punishment for not workin in a communist state? I'd be doing the same shit (sound desinging) just because my work is fun as shit, will this same motivation work for anyone?
Sebastian Ramirez
* but will this same motivation work for everyone?
i meant
Lucas Brooks
As pointed out, under socialism, to get stuff, you need to do work that is usefull to society, you need a job. As society progresses further and further, and more stuff gets automated, having a job becomes less torture and more of a thing you just do for fun, the less work needs to be incentivised. Eventually, the shit work will be either automated or made fun enough that people would do it even without having to be paid, just like how people volunteer their time at clubs or other organisations. The expectation and attitude of "dont do anything for free" that we have now will be gone, and at that point money can be abolished and all work can be done voluntary, we would have communism. Keep in mind, this is far off and full on communism will not be within out lifetime, it is the end goal. But socialism aims to resolve the problems of capitalism in many ways, all of which eventually will lead to communism.
Bentley Ramirez
So tl;dr:
Yes, but thats not the system that will immediately replace capitalism, its the system that grows out of that one.
Gavin Adams
Ok, thanks for answering!
Christian King
Cuba pays the doctors more than the other workers. So you are not really arguing against his point.
Alexander Hughes
Tbh you have no rational self-interest in supporting a potentially destabilizing ideology that would probably cut your wage- but only if you assume that crises will not fuck up the cappie system.
Which they might so I dunno.
Nicholas Lopez
Christian Fisher
People would become doctors to help people. Thus making them better doctors because they actually care about more than lining their pockets.
Jason Barnes
Do you support internal combustion? What about the Germ theory of disease? When you lived with your guardian as a child, did you "support" it? Is Heliocentrism still a hot-button topic for you?
Communism isn't a program or set of demands to be put into place, to say "voila, and there's communism." Communism is a natural result of Capitalism. It's its product.
At least, you'd better hope it is, because you won't like the alternative.
Aiden Davis
You get gulaged if you leave