Are the Lumpen essentially Feudalist?

The Lumpenproletariat are the working class who never develop class consciousness since they are usually criminals, the underclass, and other emotionally blinded workers.

The Lumpenbourgeoisie are colonial dependent bourgeoisie who use corruption instead of market forces, they also refer to the mafia and other criminal businessmen.

I notice that these two have an oddly familiar thing about them. They are firmly Anti-Communist and at the same time bourgeoisie society does not particularly like them, only finds them useful when the time is right.

The Lumpenproletariat is built to be exploited and can be oddly obedient to those who toss them shiny coins and the Lumpenbourgeoisie have power due to corruption and force. I can't help but feel that the lumpen classes are in face Feudalist simply living in the capitalist world. The peasants of the Feudal world were subservient and view the nobility as a necessary force granted by God and to provide protection. Similar to how Lumpenbourgeoisie corrupt criminal forces use the Lumpenproletariat as their slaves.

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Bump

A few Lumpenbourgeoisie where revolutionary, like Jacques Mesrine.

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Fundamentally disagree with this - but then, also Marx's entire vitriolic view of lumpens. A lot of lumpens are actually able to, perhaps, more easily attain class consciousness since working off-grid, illegal, or borderline-illegal work is frequently more necessarily social and less alienating than more controlled, waged labor. A lot of lumpens I've met have had socialist or anarchist views… the principal problems encountered here being what you might expect - drugs, disorder, general foolishness. But unfortunately, these things have come to inhibit popular leftist ideology in general in the west.

I'm the only exception, but my own social class craps on me because I'm not a "hood ni**a" and I don't be makin dat paper and wear holy t-shirts. So it doesn't matter that I'm a 10th grade drop out that taught myself from scraps.

Really I'm more SUBLumpenproletariat, I'm homeless off and on, I've smoked crack and never sold it…yep…I'm definitely sublumpen. See, IMO there's two different classes separating the "criminal underclass" (drug dealers, pimps), from drug addicts, homeless people, sex workers, and low income people who simply don't fit in with "hood" culture and are thus ostracized.

Interesting thing about lumpen culture is that its not anti-cop. Gang members rightfully hate "snitches" but if a cop pays them money to kill someone…there's actually no rule against that in the gang constitutions.

Americans suck no matter the color, nigg nigg

lumpens don't have a doctrine, but are one of the pawns/tools in the hands of capital to use.

Its not a color thing. Everybody under 30 talks this way and is immersed in the concept of being "hood" even though my part of town is like 60% white.

Its about class, not race.

Yes. I know. I was just meming. Americans are a lost cause

But how about that concept of "hood"ness and how it can be used to the advantage of rich whites?

We need a serious discourse on "hood"ness as a concept and how it compares to rural, white, working class constructs of masculinity also.

Also we need more sublumpen discourse.

IIs corporate trash that the MSM and record labels pushed with gangsta rap ecc.
It advantage rich white, blacks or asians because they own the media that push this kind of trash to sell muh chainz and muh karl kani. I have the same problem here in italy were a lot of people larp as american ghetto drug dealers.
This is basic americanism.
Basically it's more fashionable than rural life because it's easier to larp as one.

it's another tool in separating groups of working americans from each other

Funny how the Lumpen gets to be the image of rebellion that middle class liberals fetishize when the SubLumpen are the ones who have it the hardest, but they give the SubLumpen pity instead of the respect they have for the minority of neighborhood tough guys who "run" our neighborhoods.

The lie is in that they say they get respect because they "been through shit" but then that's a lie because they don't have that same respect for us SubLumpens.

I've tried to get other SubLumpens to gang up and fight back against the Lumpens but they all just want to "get over it" after they get jumped.

If only us Sublumpens had the same obsession with "honor" and "family" and "respect" that Lumpens do and could join as a family.

Are sublumpen more affected by consumerism obsession btw?

I'm heavy on this IdPol now, not even sure if I'm a "leftist" at this point, I've delved so far into my own SubLumpen discourse its literally all I care about.

I hate how rich white coke dealers who grow up in Mafia families get "hood" status yet actual homeless people who live in the hood don't. It might start with media but media chooses which social trends to maximize or minimize.

Media accelerates select pre-existing social trends by giving them emotional support.

Of course people prefer to fetishize gangstas over homeless people.

Lumpens are obsessed with consumerism because they need to portray a sense of "respect". They need to look like someone you don't want to mess with, someone who has their stuff together, someone who would seriously fucked you up if you crossed them or their family.

Us sublumpens are usually too low social status to have kids in the first place so I guess that doesn't apply as much.

Thus, no family to protect, I guess.

Lumpens wear brand labels to portray this…same reason they live in crappy houses but will sink $30,000 into a car. I don't really hold this against them because its a survival method.

Its how they distinguish themselves from us SubLumpen you see pushing shopping carts.

This concept of hoodness is very interesting to me (I'm hispanic), because I feel it gives poor, disenfranchised young men a self-contained environment. As in, they feel they don't need education, and even if they got it, it wouldn't give them respect in either respectable (white) bourgeois society or with other members of the hood who disregard things like that as cuckery and selling out. So instead all these men aspire to is to be a baller gangsta who makes it big time, and this suits the bourgeoisie just fine, as it gives them a scapegoat and also keeps these men from rising up and demanding real improvements.

it does more than that, education is actual power, chinese educated Qian Xuesen gave the PRC the ability to develop ICBMs

*in addtion:
ICBMs will always be much more scary to uncle sam than any bunch of gangbangers

the discouragement of education is what actually prevents these groups from being the threat the black panthers were in the past for example

No, but the concept of "lumpenproletariat" is perfect case of why Marxism is not revolutionary but inherently reactionary.
It's why communists will never be anything more than communists.

lol meant "fascism with red colors"

it's not a coincidence that vast majority of posts in this thread are Zig Forums-style dog whistle attacks on black people, stereotypes about "hoodness" and "ghettos" and so on.

Yeah I highly doubt that people on Zig Forums would notice that "hood culture is obsessed with respect/family", asshat.

People on Zig Forums literally think that "hood culture" is chicken and watermelon or some shit.

Yes, people here are using the word "hoodness", but our critique of different subcultures is very nuanced.

Also, notice how we place blame on "rich whites" (At least I do) for influencing the cultures of both black people and poor whites.

You KNOW this isn't a "Zig Forums-style dog whistle attack on black people" just from reading it. You're a liar.

You sound like such an MSNBC-watching IdPoller liberal.

"He's saying that Lumpens and Sublumpens need to be exterminated"

EVEN THOUGH I CLEARLY REFER TO MYSELF AS "SUBLUMPEN". deerrrrppp?

"He's saying that lumpens and sublumpens are bad and need to be exterminated"

Even though I DESCRIBE MYSELF AS SUBLUMPEN you fucking idiot?

Lumpens DO have a doctrine.

Things like "Always respect your mother above everyone else" and belief in religion combined with extreme materialism, extreme cleanliness, etc…

SUBLumpens have "no doctrine".

Although one person above me is Hispanic, not sure, but with black and white lumpens the respect goes to the mother, in Hispanic "lumpen" subcultures (no disrespect), it might be the father instead? Not sure as I've always been around black and white people.

I'm not sure I believe in a sublumpen - what you're describing seems to be something of a cultural/occupational difference rather than necessarily a class difference. The artificial social elevation of some types of 'lumpenprole' over others seems kind of like how retail workers and programmers receive different treatment despite both being proles.

You can have Marxism without disparaging views of the lumpenproletariat. This is very secondary stuff compared to the production of surplus-value and its systematic extraction from the proletariat to reconvert a part of it into capital by the bourgeoisie in the present mode of production and so on.

Its a more basic and classical class system involving physical power and respect through close neighbors rather than the more modern, liberal class system that exits most everywhere else in the modern world.

But a homeless crack addict talking to themself and a well respected neighborhood patriarch who has 6 kids and fought and did time for the set that runs that neighborhood are definitely in two different classes.

The neighborhood patriarch is more likely to get killed sooner, but, overall, is definitely way better off than the homeless crack addict. Lumpens at least get to live for honor.

Lumpens at least get to live and die* for honor.

What do you think people had before capitalism? You realize that the "present mode of production" is only a few hundred years old? What do you think happened to the system where physically strong, dominant men gain respect through direct fear?

That system still exists. There's literally no reason it wouldn't. Even in middle class areas that system still exits, just not in *suburban* middle class areas.