Question for leftards: If it is possible to distinguish between populations using genetic data, as in these figures, then how in the fuck is race a "social construct"?
The first example is the most illustrative. By clustering into just two clusters (2 being the minimum number of different groups you can have), we can accurately distinguish between two populations, in this case "Oceania", and "rest of the world". Thus, you can tell, quantitatively and genetically, and with no human influence (the clusters could just as well be labeled "A" and "B"), that Oceanians are a distinct cluster from the other samples, based just on genetic data.
So again, tell me, how is race a social construct when it can be distinguished from genetic data?
We must secure the existence of our people and a future for Oceanian children.
Dylan Long
I just want the same treatment for everybody.
Wyatt Jackson
what is "white" except just a social category and identity? how do you measure whiteness? how much Caucasian DNA do I have to have inside me to be considered white by your standards? Why does any of this even matter to you?
Owen Sanders
This. Even if it was scientifically proven without a doubt that some races are better than others at certain things, they should still be treated equally.
Brayden Sullivan
It would be the "European" classifier. All these clusters are generate through statistical models and methods that I'm not familiar with. But just like facial recognition on a device, just because I'm not knowledgeable enough to explain it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or it doesn't work.
In this case the computer is doing the work of my eyes and brain, that is assuming it hasn't been programmed with leftist malware. My eyes can easily distinguish between someone who is white and someone who is black. Even babies can. The computer is just confirming that from measurements of SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms).
To tell you how white you are I'd have to know more about you.
Why does this matter? Because leftists keep running around like headless chickens, screaming "race is a social construct". It's not. It's measurable.
"Oceania" meaning "Aboriginal Australians", brainlet.
That's ok, but let's settle a few things straight: egalitarianism is a social construct. Or aryanism, whichever you choose. But race is a biological reality.
Luke Ward
European cluster, not classifier
Carson Hughes
Leftists are not screaming about race being a social construct we are just sick and tired of people like you making race an issue to ever talk about. Why do you care? There are leftist talking points revolving around other issues, why even bring up race? What is your investment in it?
William Johnson
These The idea that anyone should be treated differently because of their race is stupid. Race in the biological sense is not a social construct, but the idea of "x race is always like this and should be treated differently" is just shit used to justify the oppression and exploitation of people. Or alternatively, NICE SPOOKS NERD
You can divide people into any arbitrary categories based on relatedness and find traits that the groups have in common. This doesn't support any specific set of groups because, again, any groups based on relatedness, no matter how broad or narrow, will produce certain group-correlated traits. There's no reason that Oceania and everyone else is more or less valid than white, black, Asian, etc. There's no reason descendants of Genghis Khan specifically and everyone else is more or less valid. The logical conclusion here is that there's no sensible groups to be defined based on empirical data, and that the notion that traditional racial definitions (all of which were created with political intent and without regard for data) being apparently supported is just due to a lack of methodological rigor.
Elijah Cruz
I really doubt it. They were created as people came into contact with other people. It's fairly obvious that Europeans differ from Asians and Africans, where's the political intent in that?
Both can be valid. Oceania vs. everyone else just has very low granularity. Increase the granularity (as they did in this study) and you get Oceania/Blacks/Whites/Asians/Americans. The existence of subgroups within those larger groups or some mixture around the borders doesn't invalidate the groups - If by mixing red paint and yellow paint you get orange paint, does that mean color does not exist? That's what the "race is a social construct" leftist is trying to argue.
So if the population you belong to has a genetic predisposition for a certain disease, you don't think that's something the doctor should treat differently?
The only time when race is truly irrelevant is in monoethnic states like we used to have. There everyone can be treated the same, including members of minorities (actual minorities, as in they're not 1/3 of the population and big enough to disrupt social structure).
Adam Butler
You're so stupid You just don't get it
Jaxon Thomas
Great argument
Tyler Roberts
you don't cotton swab someone and check their DNA before you presume their race. These graphs being real and race being a social construct are not mutually exclusive truths.
Nathaniel Hill
Do I have to be brainwashed and lobotomised first in order to "get it"?
There's no point arguing with you you obviously don't want to change your mind and you already hold ideological assumptions pertaining to this issue so until you can be cured of them, you will never have the capacity to listen to opposing arguments you just came here to stir shit
Christopher Price
You can blindly cotton swab random individuals from a country like the USA or Australia, and they will cluster into different racial groups.
You can label those groups however you want, or even determine which they are based on a certain mutation known to belong to that group.
There was already a paper by Novembre et al that did exactly that: you can tell what part of Europe an individual is from, with some accuracy (depending on the population density of that area), from his genome alone.
Luke Torres
I don't want to change my mind because you haven't presented me with any contrary evidence.
Kevin Kelly
What assumptions? There is only data.
Hudson Stewart
The leftshit conclusion of this: "Science is racist!!!! We must stop science!!!"
Nolan Smith
you're applying bullshit application to the data, that's what I'm against.
contrary evidence to what? you never made any claims, you just said some lies about leftists thinking that race is a social construct, which you try to debunk using data, no one disagrees on the data, schizo, stop talking to yourself.
science isn't racist, you're the racist prick here. fuck off.
Why don't you just acknowledge that there is evidence that biological races exist, regardless of how precisely you can draw the lines between them? No one knows the exact nature of black holes, but no one argues that they don't exist. Leftists come off sounding more like religious people talking about how you can't "disprove God" when it comes to this.
Jonathan Russell
Genetic variations amongst populations and race being a social construct aren't mutually exclusive. How? Because the limits and definitions of race vary a lot in history, much, much faster than the human genetic pool race claims to describe. Take cluster analysis: On your own picture, the variation within each population sample tested tested is increasing with with the number of genetic markers tested. On the contrary, limiting the number of markers being low make appear more delimited groups differences.
As an user once explained it, using genetic clustering to claim race exists lead to a circular reasoning: I choose a K more statistically associated with any arbitrary category and i can prove this arbitrary exists. You can do genetic clustering using White Asian and Black markers, showing populations to be a mix of various proportions of thoses different races, therefore proving that they exists. But you can look for Slav Arab and Peruvian markers and you'll find all populations to be a mix of thoses three once again. So using genetics alone, what would be the reason to choose the first racial classification over the second?
So now that we've established that races exist, according to you, if science next demonstrates that one race is superior to another in some characteristic will that mean science is racist?
Kayden Rogers
No, it would mean that you are a racist prick for associating inherited traits with supremacy. We're all different, but no one is superior.
Are you saying the scientists writing those papers got their methodology wrong? Because that would pretty much invalidate their study, which was peer-reviewed and pulished in a big journal (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences), not to mention there are many similar studies.
I'm not an expert on this and neither are you, but one way I've seen this done is using Principal Component Analysis (PCA). PCA chooses the "components" (I'm simplifying here) of the data that account for the MOST variance in it - thus PC1 would be the set of features that would account for the most variance, PC2 the second most, PC3, and so on. So with this technique you are by definition looking at the most relevant markers that can describe the most variance, not just some arbitrary set.
Even just by plotting PC1 vs PC2 (as Novembre did here) you can see the clustering occurring.
I'm not familiar with the statistical techniques used in these other papers (STRUCTURE, Admixture, frappe analysis are all opaque to me) but I imagine they account for the simple problem you mentioned.
If I'm better at running than you, doesn't that make me a superior runner?
>if science next demonstrates that one race is superior to another in some characteristic
Learn to read, fuckwit.
And for the record, the white race is superior.
Jordan Price
Of course, the doctor should take genetic makeup etc into account when looking for shit, not doing so is insane. Say for instance though, people with white skin can get x easier. This doesn't mean we shouldn't screen everyone for the disease or that we should treat whites differently. It just means the doctor must take into account that some symptoms have a higher chance of being attributed to x disease when diagnosing whites.
Nolan Phillips
I did read it and I discarded it like the drivel it was we're all individuals there some white people who are literally retarded are they superior to the most athletic and intelligent black person? You're either gonna double down on your idiocy or you are gonna backtrack, either way, you'll embarrass yourself. fuck off troll.
Jordan Barnes
Sure they should. You're talking about medical treatment, something completely different and actually irrelevant. I'm talking about social treatment. All people should be treated equally regardless of race. I've never seen a good argument for why they shouldn't.
Biological race exists. I'm confused though about the logical process involved in going from "race is real" to "kill all the niggers and gas the kikes praise kek xDDD"
Ethan Walker
Because niggers are violent and savage apes, predisposed to a lower Autism Level and aggressive behavior.
Isaac Bell
Boon poster you seem less yourself today. Have a snickers.
Ian Morales
Whites have a lower Autism Level than Asians. What makes you think, in a "race realist" world, what you dish out onto "niggers" won't be dished out onto you by Asians, who have a much higher population than whites?
Matthew Campbell
They're called "outliers" for a reason.
The average of a distribution is something different.
For example:
Left: Black Autism Level distribution Right: White Autism Level distribution
Asians in the US have a high Autism Level. I don't know what the Autism Level is of Asians living in third world conditions in China. I'm assuming you're referring to "Far East Asians", and not Pajeets, SE asians, etc
Justin Brown
If you're wanting to pedal racialist theory alright. You're a mutt then, no ifs ands or buts. If you're a Yank you're a mutt because you're mixed race from different Euro races. An Anglo is not the same race as a Celt, nor a Slav and a Greek. And just for the record Celtic race best race, we've got the best looking women and the best Rugby players.
So if by your own admission, you know nothing of the domain you're talking about, did it occur to you that maybe you don't know what you're talking about and maybe you're drawing hasty conclusions from something you're not familiar with? Maybe your understanding of the studies results is flawed, and what the scientists are unraveling is different with what is your interpretation of their work? debunkingdenialism.com/2016/07/23/genetic-clusters-racial-medicine-and-fishes/
Jack Smith
There really is no such thing, and no genetic evidence for it. Neither is there for "Anglos" or "Greeks". There might be for "Slavs", but very broadly speaking.
A mutt of different European DNA sources is still genetically "European", distinct from Africans. You can call that "white" if you want.
Jayden Butler
Why even judge people according to race when you could judge people as individuals? Generalizing people according to race seems a bit spooky to me.
ITT Nazi presents science to prove race exists while saying leftists are stupid then reveals that they are nazi
Never change Zig Forums
Kevin Diaz
so black people are superior to some white people? white race is a cucked race by my estimations considering that Jews and Asians outrank whites on Autism Level too, must be a blow to the ego as well, right? You can only call yourself superior to one race, but you're basically brothers in arms at the bottom of the food chain.
According to this, Southern Europeans are more closely related to Turks than Russians, so how can there be a White race exclusive of Turks and inclusive of Sovthern Europeans and Russians?
Aaron Wood
I didn't say I know nothing about it. I know a bit, but I don't know the details of how those methods work, nor do I need to - I can abstract, understand what the inputs and outputs are and interpret those, without needing to know the internals. There are many theorems that are difficult to understand but still used by those that don't understand them because 1) they've been proven once, which is enough, and 2) they produce good results. A good example is the Cook-Levine theorem in computer science: it's a bitch to go through, but the result is that you can prove any problem is NP-complete by reducing another NP-complete problem to it. I don't know the details of the Cook-Levine theorem, and I don't need to, because I can use its result, which is that I can reduce another problem to mine to prove it's NP-complete. Similarly, a bioinformatician using a computer doesn't have to know the details of how his CPU or OS works to be able to use it. Science builds on these layers of abstraction. Most science is published so you can tell what the result is just by reading the title and the abstract - or course you can approach things critically if you want to, and it's also up to the peer review to make sure it stands up to scrutiny. If you have a question about that method, ask the scientist responsible for it.
You can tell me where my undrestanding is flawed, smart guy. I posted the captions in the figures for you for that reason.
Zachary Thomas
Lmaoing at this coward pathetically dodging a question he has no answer to (me)
James Morris
Neither Turks nor Russians are white, so what's the problem?
Michael Morris
Prove to me that chinks living in concrete hives that fall apart, working in sweatshops and on rice paddies are smarter than whites.
Aaron Reyes
das rite, dem chinks aint smarter dan us!
the white race is such an embarrassment, why are they so arrogant yet so uninformed?
This is a study from 10 years ago, and was pioneering at the time. As such it comes with certain limitations. There have been many studies since then that have improved these results. The focus of the paper was "Europe", not "Europe's periphery", so there will be inaccuracies. The sample size of Turks in that study is only 4 individuals. It also grouped one Slovak individual with Italians, an obvious error. Lastly, the PCA method is pretty rudimentary compared to more sophisticated techniques like Structure, ADMIXTURE, bootstrapping analysis or God knows what the state of the art is nowadays. If you're more interested in this, I suggest reading into it. As far as I know there are no academic programs in "racial science" - yet.
More elaboration on this in simple terms? I always smelled Lewontin's fallacy that "in-group differences are greater than between-group differences means there are no groups" to be bullshit.
Jordan Watson
I'm pretty sure it's people who don't and/or can't find a social group who cling to race. It's a tool to feel like you belong.
I, as an egoist, can say that biological race isn't a spook. Instead, the spook comes when you generalize people and judge them according to race instead of their individual attributes. NAZBOL GANG REPORTING FOR DUTY
Hunter Walker
In both populations there are going to be dumbasses, by the Central Limit Theorem, where's your proof that on average chicom Autism Level is higher? If anything everything about the way they exist proves it's lower.
Joshua Davis
Race is irrelevant to me, I have friends of all kinds, but to bury your head in the sand and scream "IT DOESN'T EXIST!!" when it clearly does and is part of who you are and of our world is just sad.
Jack Morgan
Poverty correlates in lower Autism Level That's why you're deflecting to poor parts of Asia, just to have a consensus on your bias, well, it's wrong, in more developed countries like the USA, Asians show that they have a higher Autism Level on average than whites, so in a level playing field, Asians outmatch whites.
It's over user, give up.
Luis Hernandez
inb4
This is why I can't stand you disingenuous fuckers. You don't care about what's true. You just use race "realism" to boost your self-esteem as a way to compensate for your lack of accomplishments in life, being an ugly no GF virgin, etc. To you, it's about "how can I feel better about myself / boost my self esteem", not "what is objectively true in the material world".
Even your own fucking "race realist" idols like Richard Lynn and Jared Taylor admits Asians have a higher Autism Level. Not that it matters to you. You will just take from their research what boosts your self esteem (we wuz kangz an sheit) while ignoring everything that doesn't. This is the purest manifestation of ideology I've ever seen.
Some of that list is true, a lot of it is bullshit (the water wheel and crossbow were already known in Europe, ice cream was invented in Naples, the sundial and astronomy were known to ancient civilizations predating European ones)… how does that prove anything about chink Autism Level in the modern age? I could ramble about the civilizations created by Mesotopamians, that doesn't mean there aren't stupid shitskins living there nowadays and I shouldn't judge them as a group by it.
Jonathan Flores
Congrats m8, you're sane.
Kayden Cooper
I have no idea who those people are or why I should care.
Nice shit argument.
Zachary Peterson
Even if most variation occurs within groups, that doesn’t mean group identity doesnt have predictive value. There are short Northern Europeans and tall South East Asians, but that doesn’t invalidate generalizations about height.
Also genetics isn’t about individual genes so much as gene complexes. Lewontin argues individual genotypes had no geographic boundaries, but if you look at many genes together, clear groupings emerge. The Zig Forums tourist upthread posted images of genetic clusters emerging with this methodology.
Luis Parker
If you're a good person you're a good person.
The problem with most shitskins and ghetto niggers is that they aren't good people. Their culture of pube beards and speaking in ebonics is cancer.
William Scott
I'd tone down on the edginess of that terminology but fair enough. If you don't like ebonics and pube beards, don't hate blacks for it, hate that specific culture.
Ayden Peterson
Holy shit this proves that black people have high Autism Level when in decent conditions.
Joseph Torres
What are you trying to do with this thread? Obviously there are genetic differences between races, are arguing against mass immigration? Then I should ask, under which system this is happening? Also would you explain how asians used to he low Autism Level beasts and now are the smartest people in the world? Material conditions do influence Autism Level
Jordan Campbell
I am pretty sure that correlates with education. Also good work, China & Russia, I guess they would look like India without communism
Tyler Johnson
By the pube beards I meant more the middle easterners and pakis who go full durka in Europe and wear that shit as a provocation instead of fitting in. But yeah. It's teenager subculture-tier and if you project yourself like that I have no desire to associate with you.
Cooper Martinez
Merkel's
Agreed
Luke Harris
lel
Christopher Howard
If this is your rebuttal then you have a brainlet understanding of the subject. You are referring to the Flynn effect, which is well documented but also seems to have a plateau. The genetic impact on intelligence has been observed without even stepping into the political quagmire of group differences. The reason we know that genes impact I.Q. is that researchers have found genotypes that correlate to high intelligence within homogeneous groups.
Eli Reed
misreply
Landon Nelson
If you say this to any "leftist" or Liberal Arts major on a campus (try it with BLM students) they're going to explode on you, call you a racist and scream "How dare you! Race is a social construct!".
Chase Bennett
I thought the reason had more to do with twins studied in different conditions, but do you have a source on these? I've been trying to find a study that does what you just said for years.
Anthony Hill
reminder that these threads are made by paid shills who want to distract you reject americanism in all it's forms
Logan Price
I don't have a problem with the data, I have a problem with the solutions people derive from the data.
Jayden Rogers
How are most anons here not completely numb to this shit already? Race realist shitposts are always the fastest threads on this board too, much more so than anything actually related to leftism
Man you're coming off as super edgy. So people are annoying and provocative, so what? Where's your spine?
So… liberals?
This.
How do you guys feel about "nurture > nature"?
Noah Gutierrez
They're more than annoying and provocative, they're a cancer and a bunch of useless shitskins that just consume. They basically take welfare and spend it on useless products so the globalists and wealthy landowners (who they rent from) love them. Oh and they multiply like cockroaches. I'm sorry but if you hate religious people, then it's only logical you should hate people who put "There is no God but Allah!!!" as their Facebook cover photo, as I have seen in some cases.
Jayden Fisher
It's wrong.
Best way to describe it is that nature determines roughly where your Autism Level will be, and nurture can influence that positively or negatively, within limits. But even the most nurtured retard won't be as smart as Einstein, nor will the most disadvantaged genius turn into a mongoloid.
Dylan Ortiz
What about them?
This has nothing to do with Americanism, it applies wherever in the world you are. There are people running around nowadays saying shit like "there is only one race, the human race :)" but science is clearly showing that's wrong. There are different breeds of dogs with different characteristics (even learning ability), most of them created in the last few hundreds of years, yet humans are somehow exempt.
Carter White
Twin studies were kind of conclusive but can’t really be replicated due to ethical concerns. Identical twins aren’t adopted seperatlet anymore, much to the chagrin of social psychologists. I’m on mobile now, I’ll come back and post some later. The most exciting research on this topic is coming out of China.
If the question you are asking is this shallow you should probably start with some outside reading on the subject before jumping into the conversation.
Nathan Green
They came to your country to flee war and other more extremist Muslims. These wars were created by capitalism in the interests by capitalism. They're as much a reserve army of labour as any old cunt that can't get a job. They haven't had time to learn their way out of their stupid religion and reaction against them makes them hold onto it more. Both sides are victims of capitalism, the refugees because they've been thrown form their homes and into an alien environment (sometimes hostile towards them) and the natives who have had loads of people thrust into their country by forces out of their control (people who can be hostile towards them). I hate no man. They're idiotic, yes, but no more so than racists and Nazis.
TL;DR, blame capitalism, not the muslims
Camden Brooks
Maybe if the topic wasn’t taboo there would be a more sane discourse surrounding it.
Jaxon Nelson
Why should you judge individuals based on a group average? Let's say you have a black guy with a 130 Autism Level. Why should you think less of him than a white guy with a 130 Autism Level?
You have no problem generalizing non-whites, but have a tumblrina mental breakdown whenever someone generalizes whites.
Your whole ideology is nothing but a fucking self esteem boost because your daddy didn't love you enough. You are just defective, broken people.
Lincoln Barnes
No they didn't, they came for free gibs in the big meme rapefugee wave and they're bringing all their "cousins" and shit too. Just look at this fucking picture, do you see a single "Syrian" here? They're illegal borderjumpers and should be shot on sight at the border - the first few down will serve as enough of a deterrent for the rest.
Good, let the US take them then, or Saudi Arabia, you know, rich countries that have a similar culture to them. I don't want this effluent shitting up where I live. Not to mention those "NGOs" that were proven to be just human ferrying operations. I'm sure there's other places in durkistan they can live.
This topic is more about explaining macro trends than comparing individuals.
Adrian Williams
Because he's still a nigger and looks like a monkey. It's only a matter of time until his nigger genes surface either in himself and he chimps out, or in his kids who will turn out to be gangbangers.
Lincoln Hernandez
And which system do those people live under? Definitely not socialism. What kind of culture are young black kids exposed to? A purely capitalist one; "fuck errybody but me", "get money fuck bitches", "cash rules everything around me", "dollar dollar bills yall", etc.
Jose Martin
Boring
Zachary Evans
CREAM is a class conscious song you dumb fuck
Noah Edwards
They come to get better shit because their country has been fucked over by capitalism. We should improve everyone's situation and in turn have them assist us. The solution you present seems inefficient in the long run. So the solution isn't stopping war but just shifting them somewhere else? Why must you people always be sociopaths?
Another rascist sociopath. Baboon poster, you're getting unfunny.
Connor Perry
It is though. Even sociologist who say that race is useful in common parlance admit it is. The thing is, it’s the right that has to redefine what race even means every couple years and move the goal post to keep it relevant.
Chase Jenkins
No we shouldn't. If I have my house in order and yours is fucked up, does that mean that I should let you and your fuckup cousin into mine? I don't think so.
It is in fact very efficient, since the cost of a bullet is much less than the cost of giving a bunch of shitskins a flat and feeding them.
I agree the US should stop its bullshit proxy war for their stupid oil pipeline, but that has nothing to do with them fucking up where I live by encouraging shitskins (displaced or not) to move there. What the kikes pulled is the most devious jewish shit in a while - start a war and let other people bear the cost.
