Obviously, borders don't matter when it comes to capital. Capitalism is fully gloablized now, and bourgeois governments have adapted to that new order. Capitalists have little difficulty moving their stuff around the world. Don't like your country's minimum wage laws? Just go to China! In fact, many countries even make citizenship available for sale — you can actually become a Canadian for $800,000.
On the other hand, borders do matter when it comes to people — or at the very least most of them, those who simply aren't wealthy and don't own anything. If you're one of them, you can't expect to be allowed into any country (let alone one in the first world) without first entering a long, complicated application process that has not guaranteed outcome. If you don't fit the state-sanctioned profile, you're kindly asked to fuck off.
It's abundantly clear what function borders have: they're a system enforcing segregation on a global scale. The impact of immigration on native wages is actually minimal, especially when compared to union decline or financial deregulation — so you can't even claim borders protect workers. It's solely designed to keep the poorest proles in the poorest regions, by denying them the right to move away fro misery and towards better prospects.
Absolutely right. It's a way to keep a reserve army of labour without having to pay first world welfare. They are kept in poverty so that just having a job is a privilege.
Liam Reed
Not to mention the Immigration office is a good threat employers can use to keep submissive the people who passed the frontier illegally.
Borders? What borders lmao my city looks like a hellish combo of Lagos and Juarez and Karachi what more do you want? Fuck off, ape.
Christian Reed
...
Blake Walker
Nationalism and strong borders are an impediment to capital, the bourgeoisie have been post national before you were even born, kiddo.
James Bailey
The German bourgeoisie and its support for Hitler or quite simply captains of industry in dire need of protectionist policies can't really be described as "post-national". That being said, even the bourgeoisie of our era isn't really opposed to borders or nation-states. They know they need them to ensure profit maximization.
— Ellen M. Wood, The Origin of Capitalism
Hunter Taylor
Borders are one of the biggest contradictions of neoliberal capitalism, and their erosion is simply natural. It's nonsensical to keep the labor market and borders closed and regulated while capital and commodities can reach every corner of the earth, and "traditionalist" movements that try to put the genie back in the bottle are futile: Society doesn't go back in modes of production.
Brody Price
Yes.
Well, you're still alive, so that would be a nice change.
What a stupid thing to think. What a stupid thing to say.
Daniel Morris
What about criminality? Immigrants tend to be more crime-prone than their native peers. There are many understandable reasons why (concentration of young males, poverty and unemployment, brutalization, etc)… but still, it makes sense that people wouldn't want more criminals in their country.
What's Zig Forums in linking poverty with crime? Are we SJW no? If you think that there is no connection between poverty and crime you are ignoring the ethical horror of poverty. Obviously Zig Forums and right wingers demagogues in general exaggerate this, but it's undeniably present.
You're not "linking poverty with crime," you're explicitly stating that criminality is an essential facet of immigration, which isn't true. No, you spouting Zig Forumscuck talking points is undeniable. "Immigrants are more prone to criminality" is Zig Forumsshit pseudoscience and you need to either prove it or fuck off.
Asher Parker
No, I'm stating that poverty is an essential facet of immigrants.
William Evans
Aside from being fucking wrong about that as well, if that is what you were saying, you'd be saying "immigrants tend to be more poverty-prone than their native peers." That isn't the same as "immigrants tend to be more crime-prone than their native peers." You're conflating immigration, poverty, and crime, confusing correlation and causation like a dumb Zig Forumsnigger jizz slide.
So get out of my fucking face with your dishonest bullshit you dumb bastard.
I'm not You fuck. The post were I called you out for noble savage mentality, i'd call this fucked out for asking stupid questions and ignoring material conditions. Now you are stupid fuck too because denying the fact that poverty and immigration have no relation is just straight up fucking wrong. I don't know where you live but where I live the whole point of letting immigrants in is to make them do the shitties jobs for the lowest pay possible
Owen Adams
I addressed all the points you made, dipshit fuckface.
A "relation" isn't an essential facet you fucking retard. That's the only correct thing you've said so far. you don't know fucking anything you dumb bastard. You're a stupid piece of shit mouthing the idiotic things other even stupider pieces of shit have said. You're stupid and should shut your fucking idiot mouth.
Immigrants do tend to be more crime-prone than their native peers in certain areas of Europe, though apparently not in the US. But still, there are places where it happens — though it can obviously be explained by socioeconomic factors.
Benjamin Sullivan
"I don't know what I'm talking about but I think blah blah blah" isn't a point you stupid jizzmop.
Austin James
"Fuck off, we're full" is a meme. Nationality laws didn't exist in Europe before the late 19th century. Until then, people simply crossed (what is now understood to be) borders and nobody cared about who was "French" or whatever, and who wasn't. European culture was so fantastic in the early 20th century, it managed to spawn two world wars and an industrial-scale genocide in the span of three decades. Then it changed and Europeans stopped behaving like agitated savages. What makes you believe North-African or Middle-Eastern culture is any different?
The pollution in Beijing or Kowloon is not caused by "overpopulation". Don't. A medieval defensive wall has absolutely nothing to do with modern nation-state borders. This does not address my argument. I can pinpoint instances of gut-wrenching barbarism perpetrated by Europeans in recent history, too. Yet European culture changed — it became more tolerant and less violent with time. What makes you believe the same cannot be said of non-Western cultures?
Caleb Walker
I like the
Jace Adams
Beijing pollution:
Kowloon:
oky
from the post I did,
I thought the city of london wall had some culture significance because the struggle against the rest of the UK, wanting to having independant laws and such.
Sorry if that isn't the case.
Ye. Now is now and a lot of countries didn't get the memo and live with violent and intelorant laws and traditions.
They kill gays we don't
They have authoritarian regimes we don't
They have national military conflicts we don't
etc, etc.
I'm not saying they can't become any good but at the current moment and time, the western and east asians have the least violent more progressive culture.>>2495247
also ignore the >>2495247 bit I pasted it by accident
Jayden Hall
Also kinda unrelated and kinda not but even if you are talking about technology and preogress in the field of ☭ C O M M U N I S M ☭ Westerners are still leagues ahead to this day.
On the top of my head: I cannot think of the african equivalent of something like the zapatists for example, that have succesfully eliminated private property and the propiety of means of production bit by becoming a giant coffee farming co-op. Movements and political parties and people I see them sprinkled around the west and east asian world while I cannot think of leftist movements in africa that did not have malicious greedy intents or end up badly.
Then again I took some whine so I'm not in my best cognitive habilities rn so be skeptic of all I say.
where are the revolutionary movements in the first world? if you want to go there then white europeans are hands down the least revolutionary ethnic group today. I also like how mexicans are honorary aryans because you couldn't come up with a single example of contemporary westerner revolutionary movement.
Kevin Lopez
1-. Latin america is western 2-. Most of the theory comes out of western countries.
This so fucking much. The whole neverending argument about pro-vs-anti immigration ignores the material fact that immigration can and WILL continue because capital demands it, because the markets demands it, because the ruling class needs more and more growth and profits, and this same phenomenon is also what pushes down living standards in the native countries of immigrants. You can't put the genie back in the bottle much like we can't return to the 60s, the only way forward is socialism.
It would be far more productive to device ideas on what we can do to deal with immigrants already here, and for leftists in particular how to integrate them into a wider labor movement, than retarded "BUT WHAT IF THE ISLAMIG DERRORISTS RAPISTS DESTROY MUH CULTURE THROUGH RACEM.IXING BECAUSE OF CULTURAL MARXISTS" rethoric
Charles Thompson
You have nothing of value to add to the conversation. Fuck off.
Grayson Cook
70 years ago, Europe consisted mostly of authoritarian regimes — Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, Stalin's Soviet Union, etc.
Cooper Gutierrez
the double standards never end
Easton Scott
unlike nat cucks, who have no standards
Logan Martinez
Netaslichu you are so fucking stupid you should seriously kill yourself and do the whole fucking planet a favor.
Hudson Torres
Projection. Take a stand and admit it. You have no integrity. Little wonder class consciousness is a failed project when it has such upstanding representatives.
Brandon Peterson
nice ghost
Zachary Martin
Where the fuck did I imply that freedom of association was not a human right?
nation cannot exist without borders if all you care about are skin color or place of origin you are closet racist
Isaiah Jones
pretty out of the closet by that point
Alexander Carter
Every one of your posts is the post of an idiot.
Evan Reyes
Immigration does not in any way impact your right to freedom of association.
Joseph Thomas
The globalization of capitalism does not mean borders are meaningless. They have hardly lost their political relevance. Foreign meddling by US alphabet agencies, for example, tends to cross the line of what Western capitalist states deem acceptable for maintaining the status quo… if only for practical reasons.
The dissolution of borders is a desirable long term goal, but maintaining them is a necessary evil in the short term. National sovereignty is a powerful tool for building leftist movements.
Carter Roberts
This is 100% wrong. One of the failures of the contemporary left was its inability to understand capitalism as a global system requiring a global response. Limiting your scope to the nation-state (especially in our day and age) is yet another blow to whatever is left of internationalism.
Christopher Sullivan
It failed because the burgers go out of their way to suppress any foreign politics they don't like. This is a practical issue, not an ideological one, especially since the American deep state is run by mentally ill people.
Eli Edwards
Mass immigration is created by leftists NGOs importing people from the third world. The majority of economic migrants are not refugees or from war torn countries. These NGOs are not sponsored by bourgeoisie who own factories or industry in the West. A large chunk comes from George Soros, and much of the rest of the finance comes form the Cooprorations who own smaller media corporations, the Booner family is a much larger sponsor than any of the share holders in for example oil companies etc. The flooding of the West of non-whites is done by jews and leftists
Nolan Taylor
hello Zig Forums
Nathaniel Perez
Source on this one? The only NGO I know are mostly composed by doctors and volunteers and have 0 presence outside of humanitarian help. You have 0 proof that they are communists. All this caos in this Mediterranean could been prevented by not deposing the lion of tripoli, I know for a fact that true leftist opposed that, what about the neo liberals in disguise pop nationalist these days support?
Lucas Hill
mooom grandpa's drunk again
Julian Myers
yes no kill yourself
Anthony Brown
yes
yes
+ only immigration of somewhat progressive people should be allowed, no right-wing islamo- or otherwise -fascist scum
What the fuck does the deep state have to do with the conversation at hand?
Daniel Perry
It is the Jews you fucking commie maggot
Joshua Cook
As always your insight is treasured, Zig Forums. What would we do without the scholars of history?
William Wood
I'm not talking about muh cultural assimilation, importing "progressive" people will only alienate skilled domestic workers instead of unskilled ones.
I mean US foreign intervention is a core aspect of how its government works, not just policies that neocons are more likely to support.
Jack Jones
It's idiots like you that alienate "skilled domestic workers" because you perpetuate the "foreigners hurt domestic workers" meme.
I really wish you'd kill yourself already.
Sebastian Wright
bump
Evan Diaz
locking the door to your house, car etc is a system of economic apartheid
Daniel Torres
This meme doesn't just have to die, it needs to be hanged and quartered.
Tyler Barnes
how is it not
Colton Howard
A house or car belongs to the private sphere; it is your domain as an individual and/or household, and it relies on interpersonal relationships. A country, that is an institutional abstraction (or rather its public sphere) on the other hand does not belong to you. If you can't tell the difference between locking a door and closing a border (whatever you might think of such policy) then you just might be mentally retarded.
Léopold II was such a complete psychopath that formal colonial rule by the civil government was actually welcomed as a progressive change.
Jacob Gray
ME/NA "nations" were assembled by colonial powers from various tribes who happened to live within whatever arbitrary land borders they planted a flag within, and have neither the cohesion nor the level of basic organization to go about prosecuting violence on the scale of the world wars even if they wanted to.
We saw a bit of it with Arab nationalism post WW2, and they fought a number of bloody wars, but this was mitigated by how fucking awful Arabs are at fighting modern wars, and indeed they were so shit at it that it undermined the credibility of Arab nationalism itself, which is why it's a fairly dead ideology today.
Tyler Sanchez
I'm not denying that backwards cultures do exist, I'm arguing that the association of "Western values" with democracy, equality, tolerance, progress, peace and all that jazz is a very recent construct and not in any way the manifestation of some sort of ahistorical civilizational essence.
Landon Rodriguez
This talking point infuriates me to no end. He's a fucking BILLIONAIRE, how could anyone think he supports anti-capitalist movements.
Brandon Gonzalez
Most people believe vaguely progressive causes = left-wing politics = anti-capitalism.
