Change right wing perception of the left

Why are right wingers so retarded? All they do is smear leftists and lie. I have never seen a single right winger be it a YouTuber or an economist actually engage with leftist economic policy. It almost feels like not a single reactionary even understands leftist socioeconomic theory yet endlessly blabber on about how “logical” and well read they are. How do you engage with these people and at least make them understand where we are coming from?

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nplusonemag.com/issue-29/politics/triumph-of-the-shill/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_chauvinism
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Rightwingers think that anarchical later stage communism is a pipe dream, so we instead address actually existing (formerly existing) authoritarian leftists in an attempt to be charitable.

It is impossible. They will not listen. Right now, there is also this freakshow of rightist unity happening were fascists are collaborating with libertarians to take down leftists, we are just becoming more seperated as a society and it seems unstoppable.

Internet is full of echochambers, and a rightwinger could say exactly the same about this place.

You know what would work?.. Interacting with people on material plane. Ya know, kinda like Bernie tours red states and easily finds common ground with people by discussing practical things.

Because they're simply fucking idiots, don't try to reason with them, just put a bullet in their head.

It doesn't work like that, the ego of a rightwinger is too powerful to ever contemplate changing their ideas, they always have to be right, even in the face of blatant cognitive dissonance and mental fuckery (for example: having less rights is freedom because having rights is collectivism and thus slavery even though I'd benefit as a subject and will have a larger platform of chosen destiny, identity and propserity.)

If someone cannot reason even within themselves that they are wrong, what makes you think and external influence will make them realise? they will go to the grave thinking how they do.


this.
we need more discriminate murder against right wingers, they are quanifyingly making the world worse for everybody else.

Hahaha except they don't even actually know anything about the historically existing socialist nations either. They just go, "muh… Muh black book!!!" Over and over again until no leftist is interested in talking to them.

Get outta twitter sometimes.

You have clearly never spoken to a right winger before, they are the exact same person offline too.

When I said about interacting on material plane, I didn't mean speaking with People just like on the internet but IRL. Instead, speaking about something that has direct practical relation to him.

Considering that Sanders clearly does it (and every communist or social democratic politician that ever succeeded, because how else did communism even appear) did it, you clearly can't convince people and blame them for it.

That's because it is. If right-wingers had any knowledge of marxism they wouldn't be right-wingers. Its why the left is full of former ancaps, libertarians, fascists, liberals and other assorted reactionaries whereas there are no former anarchists or marxists on the right beyond the 'i was a communist but i couldn't tell you what communism is because i haven't even bothered to skim the first paragraph of the wikipedia page on it not to mention read a fucking book' and the 'i used to think it would be cool if healthcare was free, i was such a radical communist'

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It's pretty awesome that you came to that conclusion reading all those books you read and philosisiphising on it.

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Kinda feels like the late Roman Empire to be honest.

Well, speaking as an American here, I don't think the right is much interested in politics or actual policy right now, at least as traditionally understood. I don't see much of anything on these YouTube channels or even among the reactionary intellectuals of the right that has to do with concrete goals. It's mainly you know, "political correctness is too much. Leftists are intolerant. Blah blah." Like, what do you actually want to achieve? It feels threadbare. If they don't have any goals then why would they even engage? They won.

What is their economic policy? Free-market capitalism, I guess, but I don't even see them talking about that very much. Why construct an intellectual argument it if there's no threat to it? During the early Cold War there was an intellectual machine on the right that was set up to destroy the left and defeat communism. But now what? The right is the dominant political force. Where do they go from here? They don't seem to have any clue. There was the game of Cowboys & Indians in the Middle East but we're worn out on that, too. Maybe the right will try to restart it with this Iran business – although in all likelihood that will fail.

Anyways Corey Robin is not a Marxist but he's Marxian in a way and has written about this and I think it's interesting: nplusonemag.com/issue-29/politics/triumph-of-the-shill/

He says that the right has long elevated businessmen of the market, and great statesmen figures. Captains of industry on the one hand and heads of state on the other. Pinochet and the villain from the first Bioshock game I guess. During the Cold War these roles were conflated.


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But it is more than class consciousness, it is also dismantling their ideology in front of their eyes, they will not settle for it, have you ever talked to a Christcuck and attempted to make them understand the lunacy of their beliefs, they get "uncomfortable" and then get hostile, same with any indoctrinated robot, their existence depends on the ideas they have been fed, because usually they have no original thoughts of their own, maybe they are just that stupid, idk.

What I'm trying to say is that it is harder work than should be necessary to make them change, they are lost causes if they cannot come to rational conclusions on their own. We can't save everybody.

That’s not universal. Some rightwingers have a higher resolution view of past socialist regimes.

Also it’s worth point out that many leftists also seem to know little about historical socialist regimes. For example, posters here frequently parrot two-bit hacks like Grover Furr in an attempt to sugarcoat Stalinism. A few days ago I even saw a poster deny the Khmer Rouge’s genocide of their own people without a hint of irony.

If knowledge is a true and justifiable belief, many here are lacking in knowledge of past communist states.

the objective is to beat them, not convert them
there are people that simply won't vote or agree with the leftist vision of the world, and it's not like 5-10% it's a lot more

I’ll post my theory stack tomorrow

They were able to vote for Obama once, they were able to stop voting for horrors like Roy Moore.

You leftists aren't even trying. Appeal to their "gubment bad" feelings and then subtitute corporations and banks for gubments. Appeal to their "my rural country" and then substitue communes.

If a bunch of Breitbart retards could turn the spirit of Anonymous into fascist bootlickers, i'm pretty sure you have the brain power to do the reverse.

Not my job to train retards. I've wasted enough time trying.

Political activism is not supposed to be easy. If it is, then there a 90% you aren't fighting for the cause, but are "helped" by whatever corporate group who want to turn you into a target market.

Obviously, right now is not the ideal time, but when the GOP lose the midterms and still claim nothing is wrong, a ton of people will be dillusioned. Know when to take opportunity of events.

Let's just hope that other leftists have more determination in this field than me, I've ripped out enough of my hair.

Yeah those damn right wingers, always strawmanning our arguments and making us out to be mindless cartoon villains

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But right wingers support all of that whats your point

The quality of this board has declined since my last visit

you look for those right-wingers. You go to infowars to find low hanging fruit.

You also deny the conditions of the regimes you are talking about. And engage with events and facts in a way that is detached from reality, this what you do when you engage in the "that wasn't real socialism/communism" argument. Don't you ever grow tired of how socialists, even with total state power and the most abundant resources, can't ever seem to do real socialism?

There are also the "success" stories you trot out like Yugoslavia, which relied on having a scab work force in capitalist counties, in order to be the mediocre nation it was. You also have the case of the regime that replaced Pool Pot, whose only achievement was to have a military rebuild some infrastructure and get to people to admit they could read again. You don't have any achievements, and the theory is a way for you to talk about these places without addressing the reality.

Random user BLOWS AWAY Marxist Fools

That's where you're wrong 走狗

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They don't "lie", they believe what they say.

China sucks, a simple demonstration of that is the mass exodus of Chinese from China. They would not be clawing at every opportunity to go to Canada, Europe, Australia or the US if this wasn't the case. Japan has some extremely restrictive policies with respect to China for a reason. And there are a lot of things shitty about Japan, like insane work hours and just the absurd dynamics of Tokyo in general.

You have to mercilessly berate them for it. Their idea of a leftist has nothing to do with actual politics. They think we're soyboy SJWs. To prove them wrong you have to be the douchiest dickwad possible to them.

Unless they show a willingness to have a serious conversation, don't engage them on the level of argument or morality. You have to mock them. If you want to call them a racist, don't frame it as an issue of evil, that's giving them too much credit. They're idiots. That's what they are.

Constantly turn their talking points back on them. "Hurr socialists don't know any history. Communism has failed a million billion times." is the dumbest fucking talking point ever. Let them know that socialism has really only been tried once, Marxism-Leninism, that's it. It's economy did amazing for a while. I've never had one come back at me on that.

Call them snowflakes. Call them cowards. They need an identity to feel good about themselves. "Look at me, I'm a miserable failure but I'm white so it's all fine." They think being white makes them special. If they don't, they're probably libertarian-minded, thinking they're so fucking independent. Tell them this isn't 18th century America. We're all interdependent as fuck. They're just cowards who can't acknowledge that. Acknowledging your own weakness is the manliest thing you can possibly do, but they're too vain to acknowledge it.

Call them collectivist pieces of shit. Capitalism is a collectivist ideology. It reduces the population to a homogeneous mass, leaving only surface-level meaningless identities they try to exploit. SJWs are a consequence of capitalism. Make sure they know that. Capitalism works against human nature. These arguments take a form they're already familiar with, so they really hit them deep.

Do shit like that. Constantly mess up their expectations. That's how you get through to them.

Also, if you make an argument, repeat it, a lot. At first they'll always try to side-step it. Point out what they're doing and berate them for it. Ask the question again.

That's what I've learned interacting with right-wingers on the internet.

(me)
Also remember that it's all about the long-term. You don't want to convince them, you want to plant a seed. Make them fear that they might be inferior to leftists, that will be a seed that will eventually grow into a change of ideology. If they sound like an idiots, people watching will feel more attracted to the left as well. That's the stuff you should be aiming for. That's how ideologies are really determined.

Rational debate is a meme. It's all about presenting attractive perspectives. This includes being consistent and impervious to attack, but also just plain feels-based reasoning. People don't like admitting that other people are right, they like coming up with ideas themselves. Plant seeds in their mind that may eventually grow out into something closer to the truth. It's the only way to go about this.

You're an idiot.

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Rightists are pathological liars

Yeah this. I like these psywar mindfuck tactics. I've also had success flipping around historical figures who have been co-opted by the right (Thomas Paine, who was really a raging leftist, is one). His pamphlet Agrarian Justice which he wrote later is life is practically an expanded version of the first demand of the Communist Manifesto.

I'll also point to Marx's admiration of capitalism's productivity. Capitalism is not "natural" it emerged in the 19th century. It is a historically contingent economic arrangement and it will not last forever. Capitalism is building the amazing tools that will render it obsolete. Allende's Project Cybersyn engineers couldn't have possibly dreamed of the computing power of Amazon.com, which is practically run as a centrally-planned enterprise. Jack Ma of Alibaba believes 21st century computers can resurrect planned economies. Not even the "titans of industry" that they worship believe in free-market capitalism anymore because it doesn't work. Capitalism has already moved on and that's a good thing.

We already live in state capitalism; we just haven't woken up and realized it yet. In 2008, capitalism would have collapsed if it weren't for massive amounts of central-bank liquidity. The capitalism of their imagination has already failed. I would be a better capitalist than they are; read the Financial Times and Bloomberg. "But Amazon treats its workers like shit" they might say; yeah that's why we want it to be worker-owned and managed like a global cooperative. Take the next step in a historic process of development.


There is no "mass exodus." Eighty percent of Chinese students who study abroad return to China. The net ratio between departees and returnees to and from China in general is now 1:1.

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Right wing? you think anti-collectivist blithering liberal garbage from infowars and the cathedral is right wing?

you are politically illiterate.

true right wing is collectivist, as i am. The only way communism of any form works is with ethnically homogenous, traditional societies.

fuck yourself boogy liberal scum

I hope you're in the U.S. so you could've joined the Asserist TradWorkers before they imploded in a night of cuckoldry after the second-in-command's cuckbox collapsed.

I hope you're in the US so you can collude with corporate antifa you blithering retard

I do and didn't have to do anything. The biggest white-collectivist movement in the country collapsed because the leader was fucking his stepmother-in-law. Because that's what happens when you go full homogeneous: you eventually fuck your relatives.

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So you actually just want capitalism but only with huwhite people.

The left of today is a barely recognizable creature: it worships giant bugman corps like Amazon, participates in consumeristic gadget orgies, allows sexually disturbed men to use the ladies room, despises the working class, turns a blind eye to the offensive conditions of the foreign labor it relies on to save pennies on useless crap, and while yammering about human impact on the environment glibly accepts massive population growth and migration.
We still call it the left mainly to avoid changing our scorecards, but it has mutated into an entirely different creature, which probably should have a new label by now. There is not really a string of victories but a long series of pointless culture war battles over things like gay marriage (news flash, gays didn't actually care about getting married, they were just mad that straights had some privilege they didn't). The culture war stuff was for the rubes, everyone at the top knew it didn't matter. Before Trump, there was effectively no disagreement about what are the true problems: globalism, materialism, urbanism. Everyone on the left and right (or whatever we choose to call them) was in agreement about these things and merely quibbled over the fine details. Conservatives liked the soulless suburbs and liberals liked the bugman cities–both were dependent on the same destructive consolidation of a people into a mass. The last time Democrats argued over free trade was 25 years ago. The last time Republicans put up a fight over immigration was 25 years ago. Coincidence?

Interestingly this was around the time the Soviet Union cracked up. In retrospect that event obviously caused a small realignment; liberals became more multicultural and less concerned with the working class, and conservatives became enthralled with the idea of capitalism's borderless empire. Liberals even learned to like wanton use of military power, at least when their guy was in charge. Conservatives meanwhile wagged their fingers about how those ragheads were too religious and mean to gay people. It was as though someone hit the "puree" button on the entire political spectrum.

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The USSR wasn't ethnically homogenous. People may have followed certain traditional customs, but those traditions were not enforced.

I don't disagree with you here

This can be said for literally everyone then. I'd still argue that leftists know more about these than most others, though, despite the posters you mentioned.

How much easier would it be to unite people on the basis of class if the entire country was all white? Thats the dark fact the left will never confront.
The soviet union actively attacked jews and muslims in their quest for Marxist scientific purity.
The han chinese do the same in modern china, You never hear about it much since they control the media very tightly in china. The han are dominate in china. Mao called it han chauvinism

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_chauvinism


Do you think ol joey stalin would have opened up the borders so that the native workers would have to compete with people who work for dimes?

No, you still don't get. Gay marriage was never about that, but a MacGuffin serving an entirely different purpose. The point was not to marry for its own sake but the effect that it would have on the broader population. And this was much more successful than even I anticipated. The right has never been a political program so much as a series of reactions that is attempting to rearticulate itself as the ground collapses under its feet.


Cuba. It's about as white as the U.S. population, in the 62-65 percent range.

This.

I was actually far more left wing before I found this place. The retards here are even worse than Zig Forumstards when it comes to denying basic history, not actually being able to debate points, but manage to somehow be even worse because they think they're smart for "reading books" (but only if they're pro Marxism), and believe no one else reads books.

The left needs to start hoarding firepower in "the west" is how we'll engage them.

There many right wingers and traditionalists who eventually were seduced into leftist socioeconomics.
Generalist murder is on the answer.

Excellent post

There were many*
is not*
I'm going to bed.

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No idea what you're trying to achieve with this subterfuge

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economics is a right wing belief please go back to Zig Forums

t. Zig Forums
Marxism is an economic analysis of capitalism you retard

t. burger that thinks communism is more taxes

wrong, more taxes is socialism
communism is moneyless

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Except virtually everyone here doesn't deny 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧basic🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 history like Zig Forums does with the holocaust.

This is pretty much just a combination of your opinion and you talking out of your ass.

Yes, they do. Denying the holocaust is pretty much the zenith of Zig Forumstardation, yet the people here deny pretty much every atrocity committed in the name of communism, and treat Marx as some sort of Jesus figure. Those things are killing the left almost as much as idpol.

"U no reed books liek me!" is the leftist version of "ur a jew", as far as nonconstructive strawmen go.

Nobody denies The Great Purge. That's about it.

Except most people don't deny that they happened. They just think that most of them were justified.

As for le books stuff, I agree it can be annoying. Personally I think the posters here should refrain from the platitude unless it's in reply to bait or something, but it's a lie to suppose that nobody here has any clue about non-marxist political philosophy.

My experience here says otherwise. It would be one thing if people would actually denounce Stalinism, but nobody actually does, and claim the massive death toll is "western propaganda", without the slightest hint of irony that what they're failing to do is "propaganda".

Well, they could have fooled me. All the capitalists I've talked to will at least admit that there are certain unavoidable flaws with capitalism… communists think the system is "literally perfect", and that Karl Marx is "The light, the way, and the truth."

Even if the death toll wasn't exaggerated or made up propaganda, it'd still be too low.

The practicality of socialism has been discredited in the court of public opinion after the failure of the USSR, Communist Cuba, Maoist China, North Vietnam, DPRK, Sandinistas, etc.

If the USSR was so widely successful,why did the USSR VOLUNTARILY give up on socialism? If Communist Cuba was so widely successful, why did Fidel Castro concede defeat in the later years? Why did Raul Castro finally agree to integrate some capitalism into Cuba?

My uncle is an omega male and he says that the prostitutes in Cuba took great care of him. This was when Fidel was still alive. Cuba was literally cucked. It's over. The experiment failed. Socialism might work on paper. But the execution thus far leaves far more to be desired. The Communist Party of Cuba did some great things for the people of Cuba but they ultimately failed in their mission. When your nation is getting literally cucked, it's over.

Yet we are constantly in a state disagreement over everything down the smallest socialist minutia. We don't think anything is perfect, we just all think socialism is better. Also, thinking "acknowledging flaws" equals "realistic or workable system," is a fallacy.

If the USSR was so widely successful,why did the USSR VOLUNTARILY give up on socialism?
Except they didn't

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How were they failures? On the contrary I'd say they were huge successes. Also the USSR was overthrown, dude.

Didn't Gorbachev tap out?

Marxism-Leninism failed, but socialism itself? Hardly.

The people wanted to stay in whatever form of the USSR they could, Gorbachev was the one who forced the referendum because to his "reforms" in the first place and Yeltsin the one who forcefully ended the USSR.

The fall of the USSR wasn't really voluntary. Gorbachev was just a spectacularly weak leader and the system was brittle from decades of mismanagement.

Had the USSR tried to hold on after 1989, it's very likely America would have escalated the Cold War further and prepared for WW3 then and there. The choice for the Russian elite was to fight and die, or capitulate and get all the goodies the capitalists were promising. The elites of the USSR chose, predictably, not to fight an impossible battle. The Russian people themselves got sold down the river.

I give it 15 years before the contradictions of the American Empire bring it to the same position the USSR was in during the '80s. Maybe even as early as 2021. America is the biggest paper tiger imaginable, only staying afloat because of its massive size and inertia. Unfortunately, we're going to get a string of incompetent fascists and a hellworld that would make us wish the nukes would fly already and finish it.

Watch the "Cuba and the Cameraman" documentary on Netflix and see what the Cuban people have to say about life in Cuba. Fidel Castro did a lot of good for his people. But eventually the people started to lose hope. Watch the segment of the farmers who had their crop and oxen stolen from them. Rampant crime in Cuba. Or the poor citizens (these were definitely not well-to-do Cubans) who emigrated to Miami because they were sick of the lack of opportunity in their country. Cuba can't keep it together. They are running a huge trade deficit. They got cucked hard after the USSR aid stopped coming in. Their economy isn't developed enough for Cuba to rise up. The embargos have been painful.

If you like Cuba so much, why don't you go live there?

Fug. I didn't realize I was operating on the astral plane all this time.

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Bernie's movement is already getting wrecked, co-opted both by pissant liberals and rightist "anti-establishment" turds who want to funnel Bernie supporters to fascist thought. It wasn't as powerful as it seemed in 2016, people were literally voting Bernie so they could vote "please God not Clinton" and they probably knew the primary would be rigged anyway.

anarchism failed as well. Franco cuckolded Catalonia.

Personally I'm at least somewhat sympathetic towards Marxist-Leninism. I don't take anarcho-communism seriously at all. But you have to have competent leadership if you want to centrally plan the economy. And in 2018 with the information age and an increasingly global economy, it's going to be really hard to centrally plan a worker's republic in one country in a globally capitalist world. A lot of commerce is happening across borders. Commerce happening across borders is hard to regulate. It requires a strong state to enforce. By law banks have to report any wires that you send/receive abroad $10,000 and over. But bitcoin is completely decentralized. I withdrew over $100,000 worth of bitcoin from an exchange in Finland to send to my personal bitcoin wallet. If I were to do the same thing from a foreign bank account, the bank would report that.

The Communist Manifesto was written 170 years ago. It's an outdated relic of a document.

This is the hypocrisy of the status quo. You cannot try your damnedest to make something fail if you want to contend that its failure was inevitable. Western interference in left wing politics around the globe was rampant during the Cold War and continues to this day.
Was Cuba paradise? Of course not. But criticism of left wing nations is framed in such a way that ignores the fact that their capitalist peers are almost never better off, aside from tiny tax haven countries that depend on the labor of exploited foreigners. Honduras is doing quite worse, for example, despite its commitment to capitalism, but why would the media report that?
Hell, laissez-faire economics have an even worse track record than the M-Ls. The "Miracle" of Chile was a catastrophe by any standard other than lolberts', whom are proven sociopaths.

Uh…
Technology makes it a lot, lot easier to centrally plan an economy, and the advance of technology lays bare the contradictions and weaknesses of capitalism as a system.

Central plans are not idealistic models and people who do shady illegal shit do not automatically prove the failure of central planning. That kind of retarded thinking is the domain of ideological capitalist thought, not the thought of any serious economic thinker, socialist or capitalist. The funny thing is that, because of capitalism, black markets and illegal activity are literally unavoidable and laws against them unenforceable, so it's really capitalism that has a problem with the existence of black markets, speculation, usury, and so on perpetually eating away at the integrity of the system.

Oh yeah, and ask Haiti how well capitalism is doing, and how wonderful the Clinton Foundation has been for them.

Re: the whole embargo thing, unfortunately it's just the way it is. The Cubans seized assets from the US corporations that set up shop in Cuba. the United States is still butthurt about that. And America is only starting to soften their stance now after Raul Castro kissed Obama's ring.

If you want to challenge the American bourgeoisie, Uncle Sam is going to make you his bitch.

I'm not saying what Uncle Sam is doing is right. But they're doing it. They placed the trade embargos. And now Cuba has to deal with it somehow.

It's hard to build wealth in your country when you're not allowed to sell exports to the United States and whoever else banned trade with you.

At least Canada and Venezuela has opened their economy up to Cuba. But Venezuela has a shit load of problems to deal with right now. And Canada has a trade deficit problem (not as big as the United States' trade deficit but the US Dollar is the world reserve currency. The Canadian Dollar doesn't have that luxury. We actually have to make shit that other countries wanna buy. America has been coasting on not being able to do that) The last thing we Canucks need to do is import more shit and destroy more Canadian jobs. Cuba needs to find other buyers.

The fact that your referencing a pamphlet made for a political party as an introduction rather then Marx's actual works tells me a lot.

Far left theory has evolved in the last century. Many issues with economic planning simply do not matter anymore because of modern technology. Modern businesses already use computerized planning to operate more efficiently with less risk. This is completely contrary to the free market conception of how business works–a conception that destroyed the Sears and Roebuck Company from the inside!
And even then, the government of the USSR was deeply flawed even by communist standards. Its monolithic, hypocritically hierarchical command economy was not what most of us had in mind.


Fair point. I do agree that the communist movement of the 20th century is on its last legs, even if it is a terrible example of proof that socialism itself is a flawed idea.

Capitalist countries like the United States and Canada are already biting off more than they can chew re: the black market. This is why bitcoin scares the fucking shit out of the feds. Citizens pay a lot of tax even in a "capitalist" country. The size of government is very big. When people have virtual bank accounts that are pseudonymous (a bitcoin address is like a bank account number but unless they can tie your identity to that address, the state has no idea how much crypto wealth you have) controlled by no one but the private key holder, that is to the government what a daughter bringing home a black guy is to a Zig Forumsack.

I forgot to address the Haiti and co. bit. Haiti is managed by a bunch of retards. The tax haven Caribbean island nations are doing a much better job. Which would you rather be? A maid in Bermuda or living in Haiti? Tyrone and Sharmel in these tax haven island countries seem so happy and carefree. They live better than African-Americans no?

Which contradicts the capitalist assumption that retards will lack power in a free market.

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Capitalism requires a state to begin with. Anarcho-capitalism doesn't exist anywhere. You need a competent government. The Haitian government is required to "do stuff" as well as regulate the monetary policy. You can't just expect island BBC to just magically develop their human capital.

I just took a look at Haiti's imports vs exports. $960.1 million exports. $3.621 billion imports. That is Haiti's problem right there. Their human capital is garbage. They need to develop their human capital. Get the people out of mud huts and teach them how to do useful shit. Developing their human capital is the only way they can get out of poverty. In Bermuda, Barbados, Curacao, Cayman Islands, Seychelles, etc. they found their niche with financial services.

Detroit is basically like the American version of Haiti. Detroit is what happens when corporations keep a slim payroll and you fail to provide your youth with useful skills other than selling drugs.

Lol, the government doesn't care one bit about the crypto Ponzi scheme. If finance capital really wanted to, they would quickly co-opt crypto and put it under the control of a central bank, just like they took control of America's money. No form of money is safe from the logic of capital. I don't know why idiots still buy into the fallacy that there is a mythical kind of "good money" or "good capitalism" that will make markets work perfectly. Markets are shit, capitalism is shit, even the ancient Greeks figured out the former.

It's not that we think Marxism is perfect (I can pick a lot of bones with Marxism), but that the asinine, infantile talking-point arguments of rightwingers are not valid criticisms and usually based on something stupid. Marx never laid out an idealist straw man to be knocked down, which is what right-wingers want to argue against because any actual argument would reveal their own gross stupidity.

It's not like many learned men and women haven't taken their swings at Marxism over the past century and a half, many of them making actual arguments. It's just that popular discourse has been infantilized to such a degree that you're never going to see a meaningful discussion about Marxism in the bourg media.

Detroit is hard to compare it to, aside from the right wing dismissing both as "dude niggers lmao". Haiti was just sucked dry of its resources because Western powers knew they could get away with it.

So as long as a country wants to try socialism, they have to deal with Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam wants his fingers in every single pie. America does not want a worker's republic anywhere because America wants to hawk their shit in your country. Or they want your resources.

The reason why socialism can't work is because the United States can just fuck your shit up. Even if America can't beat you on your turf (ie. Vietnam, Korea), they can wage an economic war against you (trade embargos).

It's worth noting that there are lots of people in the Former USSR, Cuba, etc. who fled these countries well after the initial bourgeoisie purges. The conditions in these countries were so poor that working class people wanted to get the hell out of there. I can understand why a Russian prole who never fled would say the USSR is better than the gong-show that is Russia today. A lot of the Eastern Europeans on the internet today (who actually remembered the USSR) who are talking shit about the USSR fled to the United States and other western countries.

I had this little debate recently with a Polish MGTOW who said that the USSR was an absolute disaster for Poland, etc. And you know what, he's probably right. Poland's economy is doing a hell of a lot better now than it was in 1989. Poland used to be a poor country. Now it's like surpassing Greece and probably Portugal.

Pretty much all the polls that show that people preferred life in the USSR were from poverty-nigger countries like Russia. Where alcoholism, life expectancy, unemployment and poverty is out of control under Putin.

A lot of former Eastern Bloc countries are a total gong show right now. But some Eastern European countries like Poland, Czech Republic and Slovenia really excelled under capitalism.

Detroit and Haiti are nothing alike whatsoever. It's literally just a lazy "lol shitskins" argument and muh personal responsibility meme.


What do you think happens when Uncle Sam can't do shit any more?
Besides, "countries" don't try socialism as a national policy. Nations don't really matter. National interests don't matter. Capitalism is transnational. The rulers of America have made it clear they would sell out America's so-called "national interests" and its people for global hegemony.
When you speak of nations "doing well" under capitalism, you aren't really saying anything. Nations don't control capitalism for their own interest, capitalism does whatever the fuck it wants, wherever it wants. The only thing about America is that it was literally founded to be a whore for capitalism; in the end, America too will be at the whim of whatever transnational capital wants, but unlike a lot of other nations that try to resist, America will go full hog and accelerate the decline of its' serfs conditions deliberately. No rulers hold more contempt for their people than American rulers for their serfs, and that is saying a lot.

And they also all voted for anti-communist leaders at the first chance they had to do so.

You don't. It's either Gulag or death fro them.

Great advice.

The countries that liked the USSR better were much, much worse off before the Marxist-Leninist movement, and how other red countries fared greatly differed. Hungary, for example, had more of a mixed economy and wanted to take socialist development slowly, so a lot of Hungarians rather liked it; Poland got the short end of the tank-stick, in comparison.

Except they didn't, Yeltsin won by Western backing. This isn't even hidden, the US openly admits they helped rig the election.

I feel like this have been written by a rightist.

They also lie. They are loyal to their agendas.

That's exactly the point. You have to think like a rightist to talk to a rightist.

Another one I like to bring up is the Capitalist Calculation Problem. Mises completely sidesteps the issue of calculation through the axioms of praxeology. Praxeology starts from the assumption that what you do is what you want. Your decisions perfectly match what you're trying to accomplish. The process of decision-making, e.g. calculation, is thus completely excluded from their concerns.

Of course, we know that there are ways in which capitalism systematically tries to distort our intentions. Irrational behavior is the rule, not the exception. Point this out to them, bring up illustrations of the fact.

Huge corporations make profit off the manipulation of information alone. There are immense asymmetries in the amount of information the average individual, the average enterprise, and the average Fortune 500 company, are able to process. Different corporations also keep information from each other to get a competitive advantage. This causes massive inefficiencies.

The Capitalist Calculation Problem is very real. As information technology improves, socialist calculation becomes more efficient, and capitalist calculation less.

Then refer them to Paul Cockshott.

You're not going to change their mind. They're right wingers because they're retards. The only ones who find their way onto the left are the ones who actually decide to educate themselves or fix whatever mental health issue is afflicting them.

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This is completely unsubstantiated, asinine bullshit that doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny. The USSR cracked down on ethnic minorities when it came to things like collaborating with the nazis or upholding sharia law. Otherwise their distinct cultures and ethnicities were upheld and celebrated. And when it came to saving the Union from collapse? The Caucasian and Central Asian republics were the ones that voted OVERWHELMINGLY against dissolution, while the white Balts were the first to betray socialism.

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