What did Xexizy (Muke) mean by this?

More likely he wants the majority of the population to die out.

Read John Dewey if you want to know more about better educational systems.

Why?

I didn't take the fact that you are anprim into account originally. In an anprim world, why would there even be a need for an education? What type of philosophical or scientific knowledge would you need when the only thing that you can possibly care about is hunting/gathering, making shelters/tools, socials relations etc. Who has time to sit down to ponder about theoretical physics when you don't know if you have food tomorrow.

You're probably trolling anyways

saw it coming but still laughed

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Good lord, I have no fucking idea how a would-be left-wing public intellectual can be so mediocre. All that time making videos, talking to other leftists and leaving books half-read and "capitalism did X so X is bad" is still the best this moron can come up with. No wonder he's slowly conforming to the idea of just playing Alan Colmes to Sargon.

He's an idiot

Yes,

How the fuck are you organizing education without public schools? Having every teacher making a house call? Digitalizing it? Wasn't universal public education one of the core demands of Marx and Engels?

This guy hasn't read Marx or Engels. It just goes to show what happens when you don't have a good grasp of theory.

Ah, I see the new "Muke is a fucking retarded pseud" episode is in.

Based

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Schools were never, and will never be, places of pure learning. They can't avoid ideology and indoctrination, however much they may try.

I don't see how forcing kids into a hyper-totalitarian environment for 8 hours a day is helpful. It should be enough to just test students on literacy, mathematics, and so on as appropriate for their grade level, and if the student can pass the test, they don't have to go to school. The prospect of not having to sit in a fucking hellhole for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week should be ample motivation for students to pursue learning on their own, if they are provided instructional material, time, and an environment where it is possible to learn. Then, for those students who have problems with the standard testing, they can get the help they need to become functional. There is no fucking reason whatsoever to have the preppy kids in school just to shower them with praise and have the rest of the student body and faculty kiss their ass in a non-stop parade; if they're so smart, give them a fucking textbook ahead of the norm and tell them to go at it. That's how I learned everything, school didn't teach me shit, and my mother had to fight for the fucking textbook even.

The model of threatening parents and kids to go to school essentially at gunpoint is wholly unsustainable and destructive, but it will go on because the rulers of society - any society - want the control and power compulsory schooling allows. It only stops temporarily when shit hits the fan and everyone is left to sink or swim in the anarchy. A school system that actually teaches, which actually encourages learning, would be anathema to the basic principles held by academia, who rely on proprietary knowledge as a class to justify their own existence. There won't be any reform because academics will not commit class suicide.

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Shit, I did too.

Good lord this is dumb.

Schools are shit now but they don't have to be

Can we somehow convince muke to stop making Marxists look bad?

He should do a radical heel turn, come out as a libralist or something. He should hit up daddy.

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Who cares, is the guy even known outside leftist circles at all?

Indoctrination of the sort schools provide can only be for hierarchy and class rule of some sort. If that's communism, I want no part of it.

Schools are inherently shit because, even in their most benign form, they can only operate by compulsion in some form. The idea of students running schools democratically is laughable and would quickly turn into a clusterfuck if it were tried. Even college students have to submit to an academic hierarchy and play by the rules of the institution.

Now, making an effort to promote learning isn't bad, and facilities for pedagogy are not the absolute worst thing in the world - even I would acknowledge at this point that group learning environments are basically necessary, because kids just aren't going to be motivated to learn if they're not put under some sort of pressure to advance. But, for a lot of reasons, schooling has to take the hyper-totalitarian format because of the class interest of those who operate the schools (and just calling yourself socialist doesn't absolve you of class rule, if you act like a ruling class you're going to be a ruling class, even if superficially professing egalitarianism). Schools by definition cannot be placed under democratic control without effectively destroying the institution. The best that can be done is to recognize this and stop pretending schools are ever going to be nice places, if you must have some form of schooling.

He's drawing a lot of attention from the liberal community. Considering that nobody except Jason is really known outside the leftist community, it's a thing.

yh, just be nice to him about it, and don't condescend.
I've reasoned with him a few times before.
He's kind of sensitive

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Jesus…

Speaking of Jason, how is he perceived outside the leftist community?

autism

Spotted the Zig Forums retard.

Apparently quoting Stalin means you're from Zig Forums
neat.

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Schooling is not education. You have have education and learning without schools, people do it all the fucking time out of necessity. Conflating schooling with education is one of the greatest scams ever perpetrated, and is a large reason why formal education has been made rigidly ideological and divorced from reality, and why knowledge is treated as this proprietary thing that can only be interpreted by academic priests.

If socialism is to be interpreted by replacing private property determined by money with class property determined by credential, then it isn't really socialism in any meaningful sense of the term. It's some other kind of class rule that will be just as shitty if not more so, and the social question posed to liberalism will remain unanswered.

So, you're the autist, not me. (Which is funny because I am ASD, which is why I learned to loathe schooling with a passion. It's a sad state of affairs when an actual autist is reasonable and a supposedly normal, intelligent person spouts pure retardation.)

He's a unifag why do you expect to be a based intellectual?
We got Zizek and that's it and let's be honest Zizek does a couple things well but isn't exactly a good leader for us.

Stalin was shit and you should hang yourself. Nothing would be lost.

Meme/Insane

Wrong board, kiddo, Weenie Hut Jr's is that way.
>>>Zig Forums

Lenin didn't come up with the stupidity that is Socialism in One Country, or the other hilarious things Stalin came up with.

But anyway, your point doesn't come from Stalin, it comes from your own retardation and inability to make an actual argument, so you write some snide mimicry-quote bullshit to justify your own stupidity. My point wasn't that schools are inherently hierarchical and therefore bad, but that schooling literally couldn't take any form but the Prussian model and its descendants, and reforming the institution to make it nicer won't stick. It would be comically easy to reform schooling with some simple things, if the goal was to educate the people just enough to be functional in order to spur economic and technological growth so that the rulers could have more stuff, even if the context of present-day capitalism or America's fucked-up state.

You really want kids to be on the same intellectual standing as adults and for people to respect their shitty opinions? Nope. Children need to learn humility.

Please learn to read.
Schools represent the literal definition of a justified hierarchy, something that even anarchists don't claim to be against. The educator in a school has earned the position to "discipline and punish" the uneducated, that's their job.

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MUKE GIVES CRITICAL SUPPORT FOR ——————BRAINLET GANG————————–

Wow, you are spectacularly illiterate and incapable of processing a thought without falling back to le ideological filter.

Again: The point of the argument is that schools literally couldn't take a form other than the shitty form they have taken today. If you think the problem is just capitalism, you really, really don't get it and probably can't. It's not as if people haven't tried to reform the system to be more equitable or efficient; every such reform is rolled back, or de-credentialed, or worked around. Even if those reforms would make capitalistic sense, they don't make sense for the self-perpetuating institution that is the school.

Oh look, fuckhead again.
So where are these schools that don't use a Prussian model or something similar? Are you putting forward a Chinese or Indian model as a serious alternative? Both are similar in the way classes are structured - they may differ slightly due to the conditions of their population, but as industrialization happens the schools of the developing world will inevitably look more like the schools of post-industrial America or Europe, even if they claim a separate lineage. There was certainly no way that schooling in the West wouldn't have taken the form that it did, at least in the long term; even if a supposedly progressive institution of schooling were implemented at first, it would have eventually decayed into the model we're familiar with today with its forced segregation of students being essential. It's just a defining characteristic of schooling.

Kids and the uneducated are not at the same intellectual standing as adults or the educated. That's not a matter of schooling or whatever the institution says, that is a matter of reality. If someone is scientifically wrong, they are wrong. Lysenko was wrong because he sucked at understanding biology and what was actually happening in nature, not because he didn't reflexively support the ruling idea of genetic heredity or Darwinism; nor was Darwin right because experts said he was right, but by the weight of empirical evidence and the logic of his theory. Kids and the uneducated wouldn't be able to present a credible theory, at least most of the time, so they are often ignored. If bodies of researchers need to filter information so that crackpots don't take over and that obvious nonsense discussion is ignored, it is understandable, but it still is a filter - and it is an imperfect filter, because wrong theories have propagated widely only to be eventually disproven by other academics. I don't know how you come to make your assertion, except that you're just reflexively spouting ideology.

If schooling was supposed to teach humility, it's done an abysmal job. I learned that teachers, administrators, parents, authorities of all stripes, routinely abused authority just for the sheer thrill of it, and that their actions were arbitrary and nonsensical. There was no humility to learn in that environment, only torture to suffer. I don't see a lot of humility among the general population today, but I do see a lot of serf-serving justifications for Amerilards doing Amerilard things.

So how do you recommend we avoid descending into a fucking dark age then, Negrillium?

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You don't. You can pour all the money you like in schooling but you won't overcome the ideological pressure or resource pressure to consign the vast bulk of humanity to a life of squalor, and for a class of educated people (which is strangely going to be largely hereditary) to game the schools in their favor. The decision of what is to be done has already been made. I'm laughing that you're so proud of yourself for being a Beta, but it's unfortunately deadly serious.

Me, I intend to die childless and leave you good people to experience the ravages. The question no longer has much relevance to my happiness. Like I said, it is probably necessary to have some institution of schooling to preserve the present society, but schooling as an institution will inevitably trend towards what it is today no matter how much you try to reform it. We have a vast schooling system in the modern world and most people come out of schooling as failures, and we're going into a dark age anyway, so I don't understand why you think you're going to avert that. Maybe necessity will kick in and the death toll won't be TOO bad, if people get their act together and fight like hell, but you're all up against people who are fanatically committed to world population

Found the Zig Forumsyp
Please just kill yourself, you're a completely worthless person with literally nothing of value to contribute, by your own admission.

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Beta in the Brave New World sense. He's literally bragging about his own inferiority to the Alpha caste and pretending that he's not as arrogant as those mean Alphas.

Wow, anchored… why?

In closing, I'll reiterate what I said earlier - an industrial, technological society probably requires some institution of schooling that is more or less universal, because the drive to learn would need to be spurred by pressure. This is not a matter of preserving capitalism or socialism as ideologies, this is simply a matter of having nice things like industry maintained, at least at the present state of affairs.

What is laughable are the people who come here thinking schooling is about learning, or that schools are ever going to honestly be ideal institutions. This is nonsense. Rulers don't force kids into schools at gunpoint because they're genuinely interested in the kid's welfare, that shit is obviously ridiculous. Further, schooling is a self-perpetuating institution that will inevitably trend towards hierarchy and control - it is not a "justified hierarchy" or whatever nonsense anarchists invent because they're incapable of critical thought. The result is that schools will inevitably trend towards certain mechanisms even if they were not implemented by design; this is why past reforms of schooling have been a failure, and why the core functions of schooling have scarcely changed in the past century even when those functions are questionable even in a capitalist context. The rulers and administrators of schools would like to believe they're in control of what they've created and that they built the system this way by design, but the reality is that the institution moves on its own inertia.

So, what is to be done? Honestly, I have no idea. I really think, if the people are worried about their learning, they're going to have to take matters into their own hands and work around the school system, rather than trying to reform the system from within or fight with the system. People from all strata of society have tried to work around the system for a long time, either in an attempt to game the system to their advantage or because their children aren't going to be taught shit in the system and they know damn well they're going to have to do the teaching themselves. None of this is going to stop the system from marking 50, 70, 90% of kids as illiterates who will amount to nothing, and that black mark is going to follow them forever as technological society and capitalist society necessarily becomes more totalitarian. The system must mark so many children as failures, must filter out - literally - who gets to live and who dies. There is no reform that is going to avert this, and even working around the system won't change the institutional power of schooling.

I know that's not what Muke was trying to say, but it's probably what needs to be said in this thread, because so many people are uncritically accepting schooling as a vital institution in its own right rather than something which is only necessary at the moment because of industrial, technological society at its present state of development, and at the present state of human development. If the objective of schooling was to function efficiently for the dissemination of knowledge to students, there are so many reforms that could be implemented right now in America that would both save money and work better - and the system can't really be blamed on capitalist motives directly because Porky would have every incentive to make these reforms and should have the power to do so. There would have to be something deeper, ingrained in the institution of schooling itself to explain what is happening.

Because you're a retarded black pilled pseud

Please kill yourself. Bye.

I think you should take your own advice instead of contributing horseshit like this:

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Why? I don't want to die right now. I like living enough at this point, and I sure as hell won't die to make room for monsters like you. If me staying alive makes you so miserable, it gives me motivation to keep going just to spite you and everyone else who has shit on me. Even if that weren't the case though, there are things I enjoy doing that don't involve you or people like you.

I mean, there's not a whole lot of enthusiasm one can have for the future of humanity given its history, and considering many of the solutions to humanity's problems are simple enough a child could conceive them. I mean, take the issue of schooling - you know what a really simple solution would be? One standardized, thorough test to be administered once a year (none of this SAT-style multiple-guess shit, written and oral answers only). All of the students who can pass the test appropriate to their grade level don't have to go to school that year, everyone who does has to report to school in order to learn the test they just took. There, you've just cut the cost of schooling down dramatically and you've created the necessary filter to credentialize students, if you care about that sort of thing. Now, you know the obvious problem with this - any student who has to go to school not only has to sit in a shithole for a whole year, but is marked as sub-normal, and in effect the schools become one giant sped department, where the segregation just asserts itself all over again. Why is this? That's what I mean when I say that the system will inevitably trend towards producing a model like the system of compulsory schooling we have today, even though the model I outlined would be far more efficient, and given public access to educational material and non-compulsory, free study sessions I believe the vast majority of students would be able to pass a reasonable examination.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_schools

Like I said, a clusterfuck. School administrators have all sorts of fancy ways to dress up what are essentially warehouses. Unless you come from aristocracy or a shit-ton of money, no one would take a kid from these special schools seriously. I remember such an alternative school which amounted to a warehouse - it was one of the most depressing places I have ever been in, and students just sat quietly working over the same monotonous worksheets over and over, never learning anything and nothing being expected of them ever. And it was deathly quiet - aside from a girl that sat next to me, no one spoke at all, and speaking out too much meant threats either to the student or their parents (and they could do a lot of shit, like accuse the parents of abuse and threaten criminal charges). I'm guessing the older students were threatened enough that it sunk in - many probably were autistic, but I don't think all of them were. It was a long time ago and I was very young, couldn't have been older than 6. I never really knew why the girl was sent there, she was my age and I saw her later in middle school… she seemed intelligent enough to learn to read and behaviorally well-adjusted enough, but the school insisted that she was so retarded and terrible even beyond the standard of typical sped kids. I don't know what happened to her, but I think I remember her fate was not very pleasant and she might be dead now.

What did he mean by this?

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kids are stupid, how can you expect them to have adult-tier capabilities of such logic?

he means that he's retarded