How did this guy's ideology end up becoming a form of imperialism used to carve up other countries?

Wtf is this filter new

Probably, but OP was here a few years ago he probably also meant those writings about Palestine, the Sandinistas and the Gulf War.

I haven't read those, so bookchin supports the US/israel/mexico in those conflicts or what?

It's pretty unclear. For the most part, so long as you don't actually call for regime change in Syria (which, let's be honest, basically is endorsing US imperialism) you should be fine, but you might get banned anyway.

It's been here for years. Put an asterix in front or something to dodge it.

No, he just dropped usual anarchist soundbites about "well, those guys too are a state …" in the case of Nicaragua and Iraq, and employed both sides-ism in Israel/Palestine, basically villainizing particular governments from a lolbertarian point of a view as a reason not to oppose military intervention against them.

Ok i am a little on edge after a joke ban :)

It was anticommunist from the start, and was idealism. Inherently imperialist.

A PSYOP tbh.

Bookchin was always very harsh to national liberation struggles, similar to how "muh universalism" people are today.

Yeah Ocalan mysteriously had access to Bookchin inside a top-security Turkish island prison, and then saw the light… He was almost certainly brainwashed/MKULTRA'd in there.

Do you believe Bookchin may have been working with the FBI as some kind of disinfo/informant all those years?

Kill yourself.

Memes live and die, newfag.

I'm curious how long will shilling for cockshott continue. Zizek shills seem to be losing drive, which is also interesting. Will there be cybernetic eco-trash socialism shills?

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there is a long history of people becoming radicalized by reading books in jail

Not just NL, but Bookchin was also very harsh on postmodernists and Deleuzian-inspired anarchists like Hakim Bey (read his "Lifestyle Anarchism" essay).

...

Bookchin was just a dumb snowflake who was addicted to feeling like the "voice of reason" among the Left by promoting ideas we abandoned 200 years ago. I know fifty 22 year olds just like him. If you guys think intelligence agencies are picking a dumbass like that to destroy the Left you're delusional.

You do know that you're allowed to read books in prison, right? He can also write letters and shit.

Steaming take

So, kind of like Chomsky?

I still like Bookchin, and I was never a communalist, not even at the height of over a dozen US military bases in Syriamania at Zig Forums. Too many communists feel that a theorist is useless if you don't adopt their ideology completely, and that if you like a theorist, that means you have to adopt that ideology to these people. I was a Marxist Leninst, still am, and I liked the principles of social ecology and think Bookchin's proposals for decentralized agriculture and professional citizenship would be a great way to organize a socialist society after the revolution. I also thought his obsession with hierarchy, his emphasis on Greek philosophy, and his critiques of the Soviet Union were all retarded, so I took from him the ideas I liked and disregarded the ones I didn't. It's ironic, Bookchin complains about lifestylism (and makes some very good points), but his followers were all lifestylists who dropped the meme of communalism once they realized it wasn't consistent with what they what they originally made of it.

Is there an archive of the thread where Bookshit was discovered to love ancaps? That would probably answer OP's question if he wants an exact time the friendship ended with Murray Bookchin.

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Marx and similar writers are banned in many prisons, there's no reason the Turkish govt. would allow Bookchin to read anything they didn't want him to.

are you retarded? and no, I don't think he was working with the CIA before imprisonment. Now, it's a valid question.

I think people will get off his dick a bit (he is a revisionist), but his promotion of modern Marxist statistical analysis is solid, if anything I hope people look into his valuable contributions (and the research of others that he also promotes) more seriously.

I would think everything is enforced a bit more strictly for someone who is imprisoned all by his own in a fucking island prison than your regular jail inmate

But they literally do that all the time. The CIA funded and created almost the entire postmodernist philosophical movement, abstract expressionism, etc.

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no one ever said the Turks were competent jailers

Source: your ass
Think you meant Ocalan there. All I know is that he reads and writes a lot (Bookchin isn't the only guy he's read) and that he is able to communicate with the outside world. While the govt. could control all that, they also have to be wary of how the PKK reacts. If something happens to Ocalan, the PKK starts bombing. The idea that he has been brainwashed by the Turks into reading Bookchin is just farcical. If they really had been brainwashing him or some shit, they wouldn't make him read Bookchin, they'd make him call for the PKK to surrender.

Replace CIA with jews and you basically have a Zig Forums conspiracy theory.

This is so aggravatingly true, I'm fucking sick of it. I find the theories of Mao, Stirner, Trotsky, Bordiga, Bakunin, Althusser all to be useful in their different ways.

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well if it can happen to Ted Kaczynski…

By the retarded logic of the BO, the USSR was an expression of Anglo Imperialism because it received British and American funds, and Germany should have been critically supported because it opposed Anglo Imperialism.

Zig Forums read two of his books and ignored the rest.

to this day i have never seen this quote put in context. lifting people out of poverty is not the end goal of communism and it's totally fair game to criticize communist countries for failing to move beyond that.

He was in a Turkish prison, I'm sure he did everything his captors told them. And wrote everything they told him.

A year ago, somebody here posted an email of Parenti criticizing Bookchin and saying he didn't understand class struggle or something like that. I wish I had saved it

Bookchin is not a leninist. His concern was not been anti-imperialism, but communalism.

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One is unproven the other is proven and well documented. I'll let you guess.

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...

You realize the most prominent postmodernist theorists were French right? Those guys were in CIA pay? Also is your mental image of postmodernism that it only consists of books filled with liberal screeching about gender theory or what? The vast majority of the work of Foucault, Baudrillard, Derrida etc. is not something the CIA can use by any stretch of the imagination.
Bookchin being an FBI informant is even more insane, let alone that it would be "proven" lmao

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Henlo where are proofs

It didn't
Because there's a group based on his ideology that controls a good portion of Syria and a lot of western communists were actually going over there to fight alongside them?
Also this place wasn't as much of a ☭TANKIE☭ torture chamber until late last year

I find it interesting that the Y*PG is imperialism according to ☭TANKIE☭s but whenever they cheer for fucking Erdogan to >BTFO the dum anarkiddies epic style, it's totally cool

Except it's proven historical fact, admitted by the CIA itself.

This isn't Zig Forums mate. You'll have to show us your alleged "proofs" that the CIA deliberately influenced those art and philosophy movements if you want anyone to take you at face value.

Yes, they literally were.
twitter.com/cordeliers/status/778236166139158529

I meant to quote the Ocalan post obviously

independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html

The CIA taking something that exists and using it for its own goals doesn't equal creating it or collaborating with the artists.
If the CIA had tried to frame Marx' works in a way that fit their goals, would this mean we need to dismiss Marxism alltogether because Marx was "apparently" a CIA shill?

It wouldn't have been a thing without massive funding and promotion from the CIA. Period.

They do this constantly, look at Jacobin magazine for an example.

No, you are fucking retarded.

What even do you mean by "it" here? Just the abstract expressionism movement? Modern art alltogether? Even the works of postmodern philosophers?
It's weirdly fascinating to take a look into the mind of a conspiracy theorist.

Yes, the ruling ideas of society are the ideas of the ruling class, this is Marxism 101. This anti-Marxist, anti-proletarian nonsense literally would not and does not exist in socialist countries.

Go back to Reddit, conspiracy and secrecy is one of the most important tools of the bourgeois state. If you are against conspiracy theories, you are against MARXISM.

*Everything

When they let the U.S build bases on stolen oil fields that IS imperialism you brainlet.

bookchin is the perfect "idealogue" for the american. he believes in shit like democratic confederalism and un-ironically supports zionism.

he is peak reactionary, and the perfect thing for an american anarchist who hasn't read shit to cling to

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Looks like Bush was part of the Bookchin gang all along.

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Syria is an artificial country made from colonial remains and northern parts of it are traditionally considered to be part of Kurdistan. Not to mention how fucking retarded it is to support a capitalistic country and Russian imperialism in the Middle East instead of a real 21th century communist revolution.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

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Fucking body odor

You heard it here first guys, all of Africa should be recolonized because most of their countries/borders are "artificial" too. They're all mostly capitalist so that's a double wammy, time to bring some western "socialism" onto these barbarians.

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This but unironically, decolonization was a mistake.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

If Turkey wanted o brainwash him they wouldn’t have him read Bookchin, they’d have him read Hayek.

What would be the difference?
-t. Bookchin
reason.com/archives/1979/10/01/interview-with-murray-bookchin/1

Bookchin isn’t post-modernist.

Bookchin was a socialist. This has been proven because the PKK is continuing guerrilla warfare against the Turkish Army in order to establish socialism, after they adopted Comunalism as the party line. And Turkish M-L groups aid the PKK in there struggle.

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You're aware you're about to be banned by body odor within a few minutes for supporting the kurds right
(S)he purged about half this thread by now

The point is that they fund loads of different anticommunists. They fund ancaps, fascists, neolibs, postmodernists, and so on. Whether or not Bookchin owes the CIA anything personally, there's zero doubt that the CIA has promoted Bookchinism as of late.

One Hoxhaist CIA puppet supports the over a dozen US military bases in Syria, that doesn't mean shit.

*It

Gee, I dunno:

mintpressnews.com/how-the-us-occupied-the-30-of-syria-containing-most-of-its-oil-water-and-gas/240601/

how exactly?

Xe*

Your post didn't disprove that in any way.

Bookchin is a socialist though. The CIA dosn’t promote socialists. While not a M-L Bookchin is a threat to global capitalism because of his anti-capitalism and anti-state stance.

Pick one, Also over four different Turkish M-L parties have sent fighters to the over a dozen US military bases in Syria.

BO only bannes people who argue in bad faith. BO won’t ban me.

bump

Bookchin did nothing wrong

"National liberation" is useless in a time when capitalism has universalized.

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He literally thinks imperialism doesn't exist any more. I think he'd correct himself on that if he was introduced to the right material, but it's a major fuckup on his part.

He's a utopian retard who calls himself a socialist.

Yes they do, they promote loads of fake socialists to create honeypots and diversions.

Hence why the only existing practitioners of demcon are host to over a dozen US military bases in Syria?

Modern Hoxhaism is just Stalin-friendly Trotskyism, it's perfect for CIA front groups.

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It's not a bookchin thread though. We're just talking about the aftermath of this shitty meme philosopher.

This is a stupid ban, apparently nobody here bothered to read Fanon. National consciousness must proceed to social consciousness before the national bourgeoisie (which is completely unproductive and just plays into the hands of the ex-colonizer) can come to power. If they are allowed to come to power, the country will stagnate until they are removed. See: Iran, Algeria, a lot of sub-Saharan Africa, etc.

"Anti-imperialists" need to read The Wretched of the Earth

Socialism isn't magic against sanctions and siege, see Cuba and DPRK.
Take off that flag you retard.

Are you serious? The DPRK has had insane growth (bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-09-14/north-korea-s-secret-weapon-economic-growth) DESPITE sanctions. What has Iran done while under sanctions? Or even free-trading Algeria? They haven't seen anything even close to the gains the DPRK has, and they have access to a lot more. Socialism is vital for developing at this point.

Algeria isn't under sanctions and neither is Burkina Faso. In fact, Burkina Faso has received "aid" for years. Why is their standard of living behind the DPRK's in your mind?

>Are you serious? The DPRK has had insane growth (bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-09-14/north-korea-s-secret-weapon-economic-growth) DESPITE sanctions.
It's true they're achieving this, but it's still a fraction of how they could grow without sanctions, and they also suffered major losses in the 90s and early 2000s.

Plenty, go research the accomplishments of the Islamic revolution.

and I don't even know why you're bringing up imperialized countries. They're "de-colonized," but they are still at gunpoint and subject to intense parasitism.

The purpose of my original post is it's stupid to ban people for not caring about "national liberation" because at this point nations are "liberated" from the old-fashioned shit like French Algeria, the work in front of us is not removing foreign troops but removing capitalism. "National liberation" is a joke now, as the national bourgeoisie invite in foreign capital and shock troops when needed (perhaps tomorrow the US will invade somewhere and it will be relevant once more), building socialism is what matters.

source?

Then why not make him write something which wouldn't have made more threats? He could have gotten the PKK to slowly dissolve themselves or anything else really. This is such a loony conspiracy.

I'm sorry but what is this meant to prove? The US funded an art movement which was different to the art movement in the USSR in order for the US's art movement to be as dynamic and expressive as their opponents and so the philosophical and cultural post-modern movement is a CIA conspiracy to fight socialism? da fuk?

insidious anarkiddy influence
most of them have either read Marx or fucked off by now

I read Marx before Bookchin. Quite like both really. Marx wasn't a god

Hopefully it continues. He's not perfect, but he's one of the few theorists who has done actual research into economic calculation and planning, something the left desperately needs if we hope to convince people that communism is possible (and BTFO neolibs and lolbert retards).