So what should we expect Zig Forums

More socialist than most nations ☭TANKIE☭s defend.

I would actually be fine if the talk fails.
The fact the NK came to the table to play ball, while the U.S. wasn't willing to concede anything will at least look bad to the SK and most Pacific Asian countries.

Un-san? It's Un-chan my kind sir.

Signapore is a demonstrably worse place than North Korea, it is pretty much Capitalist Dystopia Island.

anyone know what time they are supposed to meet?

Demonstrate it?

'no'

Should go without saying, honestly.

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Really? Some ghetto make it worse living than Nork?

Is this the same reason why South Korea is worse than Nork on this board?

vs
Which is better?

Everyone have a decent living standard in Singapore, unlike Nork.

really makes me think

It's not an isolated incident, no. The country wasn't willing to define it's poverty line for a reason. Having one of the largest inequality gaps in industrialized Asia is probably one of them.
South Korea is worse than the North because it's a cuck to the U.S.

Then what is ?
And why do massive amount of elderly people live in slums in south korea?

Wealth inequality is basically the left hottest meme considering nobody misses the time when they are all equally poor i.e. Mao China and pre-80s Vietnam.

Suprisingly, there are lazy people and there are skillfull people which result in rich vs poor.

The only real downside to Singapore is that it is kinda boring and small, but as a whole, it is one of the best places to live in.

Stats and proof?

and you cannot prove to me slums do not exist in Nork anyway.

that's not even how wealth works in wealthier countries. The amount of hours you work won't make you inherently rich or talent. The best mode to achieving anything under capitalism is to being a professional bootlicking ass kisser.

Nah, that is how you get rich in socialist countries, notice how rich the average party member in USSR and China in comparison to a siberian peasant.

Holy shit, this guy's retarded.

Get out your infographs boys, we have an ancap on the board.

theguardian.com/inequality/2017/aug/02/south-koreas-inequality-paradox-long-life-good-health-and-poverty

Singapore is closer to fascist due to the state intervention and hard immigration, with a bit of monarchism in form of tge Lee family.

I am a monarchumist btw.

This stems from Korean shitty culture more than anything, but considering these people still stay in shape, work and live, it is not all bad.

...

That wasn't how it worked. The point of socialism isn't about inequality anyway, as that's a problem inherent to capitalism's currency system. Essentially, you're so called merit/work based ideal is what is hoped to be realized under socialism. Capitalism is merely a facade that parades around like it's about merit or skill.
Only about most of China misses Mao.

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channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/ploughing-on-the-faces-and-insecurities-of-singapore-s-elderly-8824490

Whoops, forgot the important sentence

Right in that article, they blame the culture in contrast to Japan.

And it sure does excuse it, these poor old guys earn more than they are in Nork.

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There is no socialist system in the world that shows said meritocracy, not even on internet. Internet socialists live on ass kissing and banning anyone they dislike.

And I have been to China, people do not give a shit about Mao or communism, it is a thing they learn in school.

But it is true, is not it? That is why the mexicans come to US and work and send monies home.

My father was a KGB agent too what a coincidence

So they aren't poor, just "relative poor."

Is this some kind of word game?

Find me a USSR member who was able to get surplus value from workers, while basically doing nothing.

No one cares about your anecdotes about things that never happened, bud.

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>There is no socialist system in the world that shows said meritocracy, not even on internet
FTFY
How the fuck can you have worker ownership of the means of production on the internet, which doesnt have either workers or means of production, or even is about production.

I have lived there for 5 months, and a lot do care about mao.

The cost of living is lower. You cannot say "its fine if they live in poverty as long as they could be rich if they moved to buttfuckistan" to excuse poverty, because people making those poverty wages cannot move to those poor nations, and if they did, they would not keep the same wage, since the same job in that society drops relative to the overal cost of living in that society.

Saying "oh but thats not poverty XYZ is poverty" is just as much a "wordgame" as going by formal, normal, academic, official government definitions.

Comrade… You're in a thread about one right now.

Stalin in his last deathbed day.

China and north korea are not socialist tbh.

*Though that doesnt mean they arent less shit than ultra-cappie states

...

China isn't. NoKo is.

The cost of living in Nork, poor countries do not excuse poor wages, that is the premier excuse for economic migration.

Migrants are willing to work shit jobs, earn money and come back to spend in poor countries.

and relative poor is a damn word game.

I will hold off on that until I can get more verifiable information on that.

keep struggling.

Socialism is equal pay for equal work yet? Stalin is not working in his last days yet he is still resting in his dacha.

Cockshott said he considered it to be socialist
that's enough proof in my book

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OK, I'm curious.
Why does he think it' socialist?

Not an argument.

Before surplus value, let's talk about wage and tax.

this thread is anecdotes in the first place.

If you are saying that poor countries purposefully pay everyone less than a first world nation just for funzies you are retarded. The wages paid in a country are proportional to their avarage productive ability compared to other countries (or areas). A poor country is poor because the same amount of labour produces less products, thanks to a lack of capital.

You dont have agree with cockshott on everything. For example, his retarded TERF stances.

Wage and surplus value are ying and yang. Surplus value is what makes the wage less than it should be. Total value produced = wage + surplus value

tax is just the bourgoies state maintaining itself to protect and further the interest of the bourgoiesie.

The surplus value of his own labor in various forms throughout his life is enough to prove his worth during the days when he is unable to work.

It is an argument, because apparently you think dying is how you extract surplus value.
Let's talk about how you don't know what surplus value is

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it was in an older video, can't exactly remember what he said
but he did consider the USSR and all of the Eastern block to be socialist, and North Korea's system (with their own little perks and whatnot) is a lot more simila to the soviet model, than it is to China or Vietnam. They have central planning for every industry, healthcare and eductaion is completely free and government provided.

of course he's gonna be a bit, well umm, "backwards" on social issues, but I think when it comes to economics he's as close to a literal oracle as one can be.

nah, it's just you.

That's insane. You know that North Korea has removed all mention of communism and socialism within the last couple years right? They are not even socialist in name only, they don't even use the name.

Nah, that surplus value is given to his children, Stalin never retires, he is still technically on wage even when he cannot work anymore.

what's so retarded about having anti-feminist values? That is what being TERF is, isn't it? Feminism is counter-revolutionary.

Dude what? I am talking about how Stalin still earns more in his deathbed compared to the average old and dying dude anywhere else in Russia.

I tend to lean a bit more leftcom in my interpretation of marx, so I think calling anything "socialist" is pretty much useless (and vague considering everyone uses different criteria), but I think cockshotts system of economic planning fits all the criteria for lower stage communism that marx set out in his works.
If you take "socialism" to be the transition to full communism, then china is not socialist, nor is north korea. If you take it to be "dictatorship of the proletariat", then I still say neither are socialist, as the power does not lie with the people, rather it lies with a state (that coincidentally has a lot of millionaires in it). There is no good information about north korea, and its an inconsequential country, so me defending or attacking it is not usefull. People can say anything happens in that place, it cannot be verified. You might as well pretend it does not exist in the context of leftist theory, as you cannot make any meaningfull statements about it. Me attacking it is a waste of my time. Me defending it is a waste of my time. It would be all an exercise in attacking or defending whatever phantasmal image of it people conjure up in that very moment, with the added risk that NK is actually a retarded semi-fascist state and me being on record defending it.

And I told you

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TERF stands for trans-exclusive-radical-feminist
So no, its not anti-feminist, its just anti-trans. Which is even worse than being anti-feminist imo, because feminism is a political line, while being trans is like being gay. Being against an ideology is understandable and people can be convinced of dropping their ideology, but being against people for who they are is not nice.

And? Does not change the fact people still leave poor countries to go to rich countries to work, even in China where the production base is largest in the world.

And Stalin and his bureaucrat generates no value on their own, yet they still earn more than workers, and to just excuse taxes so easily, I know you have never owned properties.

Stalin in his deathbed.

And what the fuck does Stalin do anyway? Signing papers?

This is not a valid argument against anything. What are you even trying to say with this?

Correct
Did they? The wage difference between the soviet people was very tiny during stalin years.

OOOOH SHIT NIGGA YOU OWNED ME BAD DAMN YOU GOT ME NOW SON. OOH SHIT HOW WILL I RECOVER A COMMIE WHO WAS NOT BORN RICH. DAMN BEST REFUTAL OF THE CENTURY I GUESS ONLY RICH LANDOWNERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO SET TAX RATES OH WAIT THEY ALREADY DO AND I ALSO PAY MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF TAX ON MY WAGE THANKS TO SOCIAL DEMOCRACY WHICH MORE AND MORE GOES TO FUNDING TAX CUTS AND BENEFITS FOR MULTINATIONALS. SHIT YOU SHOULD BE ON THE DEBATE TEAM NOBODY STOPPING THIS GUY

Have you ever worked at an office job? It's a very shitty line of work.

I think NK is pretty shit but this is a meme argument and it's not true.

That's pretty stupid m8.
Take the L, and go home before you further embarrass yourself by pretending to understand how surplus value works.

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Income inequality was significantly higher in the Stalin-era than during Khrushchev and Brezhnev, IIRC.

He was kind of a radical socdem. Probably quite corrupt and he did install sharia law instead of secularizing the country, but i wouldn't reject him entirely, he was less of a rightist than Assad whose dick ☭TANKIE☭s love to ride for no reason.

You can pay someone to do a service for you, but don't extract surplus value from them, dum dum.
You're just digging yourself a deeper hole.

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All of the former socialist states had incredibly low income taxes. You don't know what you're talking about.

Thats not what you said though. You were blaming poor countries for paying a lower wage on avarage than rich countries on avarage. There is no secret evil NWO boogeyman deciding that country A will get half the wages of country B.

Fight for more tax, less wages, less benefits and scrapping even more of the measly benefits I get? Oh wait, its not called tax when its rent I have to pay, right? Even when a giant corporation controlls all the houses and changes as much as they can with no way for us to move out.

Socialist countries have historically had low taxes by the way.
In a socialist country I would get more by means of wage increase than the "tax" I pay would go up.

en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Democratic_People's_Republic_of_Korea_(2016)
"no"
You can't build communism while you're still under constant assault.
Explain to me how "when there's different wages" = surplus value extraction. Even Marx allowed for a difference in wages under socialism:
marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

Surplus value extraction requires a worker to be selling their labour power to a capitalist; the surplus being the extra portion of unpaid work that is required for that employment to be profitable. If you produce a value of $50 in a day and I pay you $50, I've made nothing. If you produce a value of $50 and I pay you $30, with that $30 being the minimum necessary to cover your expenses for that day's employment, I make a $20 profit.
Socialist Albania, Cuba and the DPRK abolished taxes though. Tax was generally a very small part of the income of socialist states.

Uh-huh.

Imagine being this economically illiterate

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You forgot: And if you do not control the state

Of course you don't.
Glad we could agree on something.
So all your whinging about them "getting rich" the same way is bollocks. Try something new or fuck off, please.

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Of course you don't.
Glad we could agree on something.
So all your whinging about them "getting rich" the same way is bollocks. Try something new or fuck off, please

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By whom? Exploitation requires private property. Or are you saying that by contributing to healthcare, education, security, administration, maintenance etc. that I'm being "exploited" by society?

RIP anclap poster got banned

Feel like deleting their posts just makes them think "they banned me because I'm right". Should leave them up for a laugh.

agree but Zig Forums is pretty much the same as left reddit now, at least when it comes to banning people

the evil is defeated

same. Dude was a disingenuous fuck nut, but I still would like everyone to see how much.

TERF's aren't "against" trans people, whatever that means. At the most benign end, they just maintain a distinction between biological women and transwomen. It makes some sense, there are significant differences when it comes to health and reproductive issues.

In practice, all of them are.

What other way could this possibly go?

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An explosion at some point would liven things up.

You're not cynical enough

Hers another.
The greatest brawl of the 21st century all caught on film.