Be honest, how many of you are this? I dont like idpol because I agree that it consumes leftist issues but I feel like this justification for hating idpol is used by some to ignore important racial issues.
Be me
William Gutierrez
Brody Peterson
As an ML, a lot of people on this board use anti-idpol as an excuse to be actually bigoted. It isn't even close to just an ML thing.
Bentley Thompson
Its infuriating because identity politics are a real issue. They frequently get pedantic and promote blatant liberalism with no real resolution. However, the issues of the world dont exist in a vacuum. It would be super easy to just see the world as only rich and poor as it would help simplify the leftist cause. But race is huge factor thats intersected between politics and ignoring it, either because of bigotry or a desire for simple and quick revolution, is stupid. Its cancervashit boomer tier, like when they say we live in a post racial society. I honestly thought Zig Forums would be better than this.
Evan Martin
This has been a problem with the board from day one.
"Identity politics", to people who knows how to read, is simply the act of divorcing issues of identity from the class struggle, which invariably ends up benefiting the ruling class. Identity politics can be conservative or liberal in nature, but they are ALWAYS anti-worker.
Somehow this got mangled into "women, blacks, and gays should just shut up and stop talking about issues specific to them".
Landon Long
yeah. idpol to me, the way i encounter it in an american context, happens when you criticize some dickwad centrist liberal who is complicit in why things suck, and the response is "well then you obviously don't want to help minorities because trump." it's condescending and infuriating, and i can empathize with people who eventually decide to say 'fuck it' and go to the right – because while the right is fully of shitty people at least many of them understand themselves to be ideological actors.
at the same time, where i live, it'd be impossible to engage in any kind of left politics without taking race into consideration since the maintenance of white supremacy is a key interest of the people who run shit around here. 'ain't no war but the class war' is a dog that just won't hunt. and left movements have always appealed to the downtrodden. stalin was originally not a marxist but attracted to georgian nationalism given his experiences in an imperial russia where georgian language and culture such as poetry were suppressed. he eventually discovered marxism through that route.
Isaiah White
are gonna crucify me for this but literally the easiest way to rectify the supposed contradiction between intersectionality and class dynamics is just to factor that one can perform a sort of hedonic calculus with intersecting factors of identity. Simply put, some power relations negate others and some reinforce each other. Class identity could be seen as the ultimate example of this, a black man in Amerikkka is actively disadvantaged by the systemic factors of the country, however, if he's a capitalist, that fact of his identity intersects with and largely negates his disadvantage.
Bonusu:
Cooper Mitchell
Why am I ML, because it is the only proven effective revolutionary ideology. Marx and Lenin are always right.
Logan Miller
Do not pretend to be communist. Do not gaslight Zig Forums as "always being problematic". Do not attempt to mask reactionary politics in leftist rhetoric. Shove yourself into the nearest furnace.
Adam Lopez
If you think these are contradictory you're just fucking stupid, sorry.
Eli Hill
Angel Williams
Engels wrote about the unique oppression of women, you fucking imbecile. Marxist analysis is completely compatible with talking about identity-specific issues.
Xavier Lewis
That's not an argument you tremendous faggot.
Gabriel Jones
I didn't say leftypol is "always problematic", im saying that unfortunately a lot of people on leftypol use anti-idpol an excuse to be socially reactionary. I'm not saying all, I'm not even saying most.
Joseph Martinez
Well, I can understand that many people here want to distance themselves from the college/tumblr left but sometimes they go too far; Namely, some go as far as defending what Zig Forums thinks as "materially justified" because they are resentful NEETs or some shit
And as an immigrant, I have gotten really hostile attitudes on Zig Forums. Basically how immigrants are scabs, not actually working class but just tools of the bourgeoisie, and how we should go back to fix our countries.
Zig Forums has nasty nazbol streaks, ready to throw internationalism and solidarity under the bus over workerism/"native" worker fetishism. Somehow some proletarians are more prole and deserving than others.
Ian Diaz
Here's your big problem tbh, I would consider myself anti-idpol insofar as I think Marxism already contains the framework within it to explain identity related issues as they relate to class struggle, and I would tend to lean towards a variant of ML as my tendency but despite being white I grew up Working Class in communities that were multiethnic and even now the majority of the people I interact with are of a different ethnicity to me. I don't really think this issue is inherent to the anti-idpol line of communist thought and is more related to the conditions and culture of where you were raised and continuing into your adult life. Ultimately I would say the reason your situation is a problem is because it forms an actual barrier to praxis insofar as you're not able to interface with various members of the working class and that's an issue that stretches to encompass a large portion of those involved in communist politics more generally in the current age.
Brayden Walker
Talking about it does not impact the course of action communists should take, and sure as shit does not involve coddling the idpozzed crowd.
Nobody does this. They get banned every time.
Adam Williams
something something big other something something small a
Kevin Rivera
Literally every time I've ever made this argument I've gotten that exact response. usually for stalin-stache and tank-flags unfortunately
Noah Butler
Really puts the cortex in a vortex.
Aaron Sanders
Wait, I just re-read OP and realised that they weren't specifically talking about themselves, in which case, retarded fucking strawman attempting to slide the board, please engage more honestly in future. There are multiple reasons why anti-idpol may or may not be adopted by some over others but to insinuate that the solution to someones stances on politics is a result of their own personal attitudes is a liberal attempt to responsibilize and doesn't have any place in a marxist discourse, and futhermore, a theoretical gaslighting of an imaginary person such as this does not only apply to identity related issues, it could be very strongly argued that the children of bourgeois & petit-bourgeois would have many of the same problems when it comes to their political attitudes that come from personal bias & experience. In fact, moreso considering we live in a Class Society. Leftists in the world right now have this problem, how many irrelevant sects or orgs are there that don't do the first thing in terms of actually interacting with the struggles of the working class and just post polemics on the internet against others? How many of us have social issues that would preclude us from even being able to communicate effectively our politics in the real world?
Jacob Ross
Sorry for not screenshotting every interaction I've ever had, good argument. To deny that people sometimes use anti-idpol as an excuse for being reactionary is either:
1.Denying obvious reality
2.You haven't been around long enough to know
Wyatt Davis
You might want to consider therapy OP. This is not healthy behaviour.
Also no, I am not that. Stop gaslighting this board and go back to whining on reddit about how your skintone is more important than class.
Matthew Torres
Michael Richardson
1800-come-on-now
Elijah Jackson
>Basically how immigrants are […] also tools of the bourgeoisie, and how we should go back to fix our countries.
Fixed that for you OP.
You're taking the stance against mass migration on the basis of their impact on all countries of the world to be the same as hating the immigrants in themselves. Its wrong. Hating mass migration is not hating immigrants. They are symptoms of capitalism. You hate the system that creates the conditions that spawn immigrants and the negative impact they have on the ability of the global working class to organize.
Jack Green
Am i wrong?
>im autistic and only talk in le epic reaction images
James Robinson
This is the 4th thread you've made of this type, enjoy your ban.
Regards, unironic ancom mod.
Joshua Gray
Yes
Christopher Cook
Lol so it was literally a reddit slider attempting to gaslight?
Xavier Williams
When is this ever not the case?
Dominic Wright
Of course it is. When has it ever not been this?
Aiden Turner
Is it comfy in the dustbin of history?
Ethan Harris
Sometimes it's just someone having a bit of fun baitposting, I haven't seen many unironic redditors post-split as the board has shrunk
Carter Powell
I'd ask you the same but that would require some sort of history worth writing down about anarchists.
Brandon Phillips
...
Ethan Miller
pointless sectarianism is not allowed, this is a comfy board
Leo Carter
...
Jonathan Hill
Anarchy is having a resurgence now that people have realized state "socialism" was a failure. Communization is the future. Even the most notable quasi-socialist experiment right now, R0java, is also quasi-anarchist.
read zizek
Henry Sanders
Where? Not on this board, its still roughly the same marxist-anarchist distribution as in the start.
No, cybernetics is the future. Read cockshott.
Carter Perez
You can have decentralized cybernetics nigga.
Daniel Murphy
fully automated production is decetralized by nature, that's what makes it superior to capitalism.
Colton Foster
So what is your disagreement that anarchy is the future? You can have cyber anarchy.
Cameron Rodriguez
Yeah I mean I replied to it seriously at first so I guess I'm just too eager to take bait that isn't there, the true Zig Forums way
Ayden Miller
When you can't tell the difference between bait and a real opinion (or if it's bait that some people do have as a real opinion) you kind of have to take it to avoid consensus cracking.
Xavier Johnson
Get the fuck out, Amerikkkan shill
Brandon Johnson
You cant have decentralized central planning, which cockshotts system requires, as you have one economy all interlinked, of which singular grand plan has to be setup.
Actually read cockshott.
Unless you mean "we have a federation system" at which point youre basically having democratic centralism, which is leninist, proving once again that there really is not a big devide between marxists and anarchists, as all anarchists want some kind of quasi-centralized-power-with-decentralized-political-power and most marxist want the same.
Jaxson Moore
You're going to have to ban me, bodyodour.
You can build a cybernetic system from the bottom up. The "central plan" can be calculated in aggregate from information generated locally. The most centralization you would need in theory is which fork of the algorithm to use, and different communities could opt-in to different forks based on a consensus and amity system.
Parker Parker
READ COCKSHOTT JESUS FUCK. IT IS A POLITICAL DECISIONS INFORMED BY DATA, NOT AN AUTOMATIC SELF RUNNING SYSTEM.
And then you lose litterally ALL of the benefits a centralized system provided, creating massive inefficiencies, massive wastes of productivity, massive wastes of resources and inter-fork economic competition (as with 2 systems, the best way for either system, apart from merging to avoid the prisoners dilemma, is fucking over the other system).
Levi Watson
Willy P. Cocks is a brainlet and so are you.
Evan Jones
Those reasons are many, and very valid.
.t not read cockshott at all, and I mean you actually did not open the book, youre just talking out of your uneducated ass. No it fucking would not be. It plans for consumer products. The nature of an industry is of no concern to the system of linear optimization, and there are no "different algorithms" that are "more efficient" for "different industries", because the whole point is that by getting ALL industries in the same system, you are able to run the economy and make massive gains.
then become a market anarchist, if you love inefficiency
I highly recommend actually reading cockshott, rather than having unsupported critisisms of him based on whatever strawman you created of him based of the memes you saw.
Warning: You might have to actually use your brain for a change
Adrian King
(me)
Anyway I will be off, I have shit to do. Come back to me if you actually have valid critisism and justification based on the proof cockshott made, the evidence and examples he made, or a more formal and supported explanation of your own position beyond "people will just invent shit to force my vision to function".
Luke Martinez
Your discomfort is more based around the fact that you're brought up in a society where races are set against each other from birth and so despite your understanding its hard for you to kill old habits
Ian Lewis
what the fuck is "communization"?