What is Zig Forums's opinion on sex work...

I don't think any communist seriously advocates for prostitution under a communist society. The question is what to do about the prostitution that exists NOW.

How the fuck is it not work? Because it doesn't produce anything? Neither does any service job. Are cashiers, clerks, waiters, etc. not workers?

If sex workers were to go on strike would it deal a blow to the system? Doubt it. While we should support sex workers sex work it self is lumpenprole in nature.

No, because it's criminalized. If it were decriminalized you can bet a sex worker strike would be a major blow to revenue in places like Vegas or other entertainment centers.

it wouldn't deal a blow to anyone

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CARLOS NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR YOUR SHIT

bother fugging Garlos! :::DDD

What to do with the prostitution that exists now? Come on, you are giving up before you even begin. Our goal should be revolution, and if any communist party gets even close to power, that should be the first thing it does. Don't play the liberal game of saying that revolution is far off, so we should just dedicate our efforts to improving capitalism or whatever. Keep your eye on the ball. If you believe their will be no prostitution in socialism, and you are a socialist, then wanting socialism means with it the abolition of prostitution. Don't give me that weak reformist crap.

Bourgeois whores, who shove fists up their cunts on webcams, and their myopic world views. That's basically the "for" people.

They'd sell out all those who are victims of sex trafficking and terrible life circumstances so they can attention whore in their cozy liberal bubble.

btfo

b-but they need to make a living! You can't judge humanity under capitalism, it corrupts us all!

It's fine.
Also genuinely some of the only low-level work that's actually not inherently alienating - without a pimp, prostitutes control the product and get the entire surplus. And on top of that, they don't even generally pay income tax on that in a lot of places. The ability of both capitalists and the capitalist state to steal from them is severely impeded.

Even less liberated forms of sex work (like stripping) often allow more independence and greater potential worker earnings for the work put forth than, say, retail does.

You could say the same thing about all cottage industry. Fact is under capitalism it never stays that way.

Read Marx you fucking retards.
marxists.org/glossary/terms/l/u.htm

Yes, it'd be safer too.

Sex work is only considered lumpen because it's criminalized.

It's like the difference between a pharmacist and a drug dealer. The act of giving drugs in exchange for money isn't lumpen; it's the context that matters.

You do realize that prostitution was legal for a large part of human history right? Lumpenproletariat isn't just talking about illegal work. If it was just talking about illegal work, then it wouldn't include beggars and tramps. Don't try to twist these words into your weird interpretation.

No.

Has nothing to do with criminalization. Has to do with being a low-life scumbag.

The red liberals who gush about streamlining the experience of prostitutes so they can ‘make a living’ and protecting them sound to me exactly like the liberals who praise the sweat shop for “what capital it does generate for the needy”

Take your reactionary, actually reactionary bullshit elsewhere. Being a sex worker doesn't make you a lowlife scumbag.

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You are so incredibly stupid it's almost funny. Read the Communist Manifesto, The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State, and Private Property and Communism then get back to me.

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Explain how sex work is qualitatively distinct from literally any other type of labor you actual fucking retards.

Your mothers should have fucking aborted you to save the world from your overwhelming stupidity. Idiots.

Hey moron, did you ever think that maybe something written about 18th century Western Europe isn't COMPLETELY FUCKING TRANSFERABLE to the 21st century and that prostitutes in Marx's time might have a completely different relationship to society compared to now?

No? Didn't think so, given that you actually have an Autism Level below 80.

That is NOT how bipolar disorder works

Sometimes I like Trotnon.

No, something is lumpen if it is parasitic, antisocial, and removed from the broader productive forces of society. I was explaining why retards (read: you) THINK sex work is lumpen when it obviously doesn't meet the definition.

Ah yes the trotnigger in its wild habitat, devolving to insults

So we will have it in socialism? This is another commodity that most don't willingly engage in. Unless you are taking a ancap interpretation of free will.

Shut the fuck up. People on this board have literally no idea how to have a discussion without mindlessly parroting something they read in the Abridged Version of the Communist Manifesto or a blog post by Espresso Stalinist.

That's easy mate. Think about actual socialism for one second. Yes, I know that's probably difficult for you, but try to bear with it. Socialist nations have centrally planned economies structured to address the needs of the people. While the idea of jobs being handed out mechanically by a shadowy bureau without care for interest or passion is a myth, all countries following Marxist-Leninist structure did control the structure and function of the job market. Schools were often designed to sort students early based on their differing skills, and quotas for engineering students, doctors, carpenters, architects, and others were set at the national level by planning committees.

There’s nothing wrong with this, of course — but what does that mean for the existence of prostitution in these societies? Do pro-prostitution Marxists support a planning committee deciding the number of “sex workers” alongside the number of agricultural workers or construction workers? How would the state gauge exactly how many women need to be available for workers to fuck? Would schools begin tracking female children into prostitution as a career early on if they showed no aptitude for other occupations?

If there was a shortage of women in prostitution, could the state reassign others to fill the vacancies? Could women refuse to fuck men and still maintain their status and security inside the worker’s republic? These aren’t “gotcha” questions. They’re not what-ifs. They’re the nuts and bolts of what pro-prostitution communists are arguing for. And if you can’t answer these simple questions without sounding like the manager of an elaborate sex-trafficking organization, ask yourself why.

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No, we won't have it in socialism. Prostitution is a service that can't exist without exploitation.

The closest thing to sex work we will see in communism is very loose people who have sex with anyone for the heck of it.

We are talking about capitalism, not socialism. In capitalism, sex workers perform labor in exchange for a wage to sustain their own standard of living. They are functionally no different from any other kind of worker and thus their industry should be decriminalized and they should be allowed to unionize.

I bet you unironically think that cops are workers as well.

Oh, you're a fucking idiot. If only you had admitted to it sooner.

You are advocating for what is essentially a union of small business owners. How is that in any way a good thing for socialism?

I wonder what Rafiq thinks of sex workers in capitalism.

It is functionally different though. If you assume that sex is work, several underlying assumptions must be made. First, is it socially necessary work? Since you have admitted that it wouldn't exists in socialism, I presume you would answer no. Alright, so the second question is, if it is not socially necessary work, why does it exist? After all, both men and women participate in sex. So then why would men specifically pay for sex? The answer is obvious. In a patriarchal society, women are said to exist for the pleasure of men. When women do not fulfill this role for certain men, they instead pay in order to maintain this patriarchical association between men and women. That is the underlying reason why prostitution exists. We know that this is the reason for prostitution, because prostitution only emerges in societies with class division, and from patriarchal systems that were born from class division. In other words, unlike other forms of work, which will continue to exist in Communism, prostitution, which is a product of the exploitative class society, will necessarily disappear. THAT is the difference between sex work and other forms of work.

Freelancers aren't small business owners you fucking thick, moronic monkey man.

I'm not defending prostitution as an institution you fucking idiot, I'm saying that prostitutes are workers and communists should defend them as such.

I mean seriously, what a fucking stupid argument. Should communists not defend telephone workers because they will be rendered obsolete and not exist under future communist societies? 50% of jobs can be (and will be under communism) automated with current technology. Does that mean we shouldn't support the 50% of workers who are unlucky enough to work in such jobs?

They are more like contractors than freelancers. They are service providers looking for clients, not people begging for work. That leads to reaction.

No they are not. Come on, you want to defend work that fundamentally exists only due to an exploitative society? Next you'll start to defend stockbrokers because "I am not defending the institution, but they are still workers and need to be supported!"

It's not about work that in the future will be obsolete. It is about socially necessary work. There is a difference. Do you think that a person that makes sandcastles should be defended by Communists as a worker if someone is crazy enough to give him money for it? No, of course not. The jobs you are talking about are currently socially necessary RIGHT NOW, so of course we will defend them. On the other hand, if someone is working at a job which no one really needs at the present moment, like building sandcastles, those people's "jobs" will not be defended, and they will be asked to do something else.

When you think about it prostitutes are lumpenprole and are basically a small business using their body to make money.

Is there prostitution in communist countries? I mean like in the old days. Everyone was provided a job and their own place so was there even any need to desperately sell your body for money?

Prostitutes and drug dealers are basically lumpen prole capitalists according to Marxism and should be pushed against the wall and shot

Basically the soviets were radfems

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That's made up.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Soviet_Union

Would you atleast support decriminalising it for the time being to reduce non violent arrests and jailing? The communist future wont be here anytime soon.

This.

1.) There is no productive component to it.
2.) Consent doesn't exist under economic duress.

Also, kill all trots.

Decriminalization without institutionalizing prostitution is the default socialist position. It's called the Nordic Model.

I think it might be.

Read Marx brainlet.
Any and every effort exerted is not necessarily labor.

...

I'm curious, how representative are pro-legalization prostitutes of the overall prostitute population? I've heard it alleged that those who vocally advocate it are generally middle classers who do it independently of a pimp for extra money (but could have chosen another job), but that most prostitutes are pushed into it by circumstances and heavily exploited (if not outright enslaved).

“I have heard some peculiar things on this matter from Russian and German comrades. I must tell you. I was told that a talented woman communist in Hamburg is publishing a paper for prostitutes and that she wants to organise them for the revolutionary fight. Rosa acted and felt as a communist when in an article she championed the cause of the prostitutes who were imprisoned for any transgression of police regulations in carrying on their dreary trade. They are, unfortunately, doubly sacrificed by bourgeois society. First, by its accursed property system, and, secondly, by its accursed moral hypocrisy. That is obvious. Only he who is brutal or short-sighted can forget it. But still, that is not at all the same thing as considering prostitutes – how shall I put it? – to be a special revolutionary militant section, as organising them and publishing a factory paper for them. Aren’t there really any other working women in Germany to organise, for whom a paper can be issued, who must be drawn into your struggles? The other is only a diseased excrescence. It reminds me of the literary fashion of painting every prostitute as a sweet Madonna. The origin of that was healthy, too: social sympathy, rebellion against the virtuous hypocrisy of the respectable bourgeois. But the healthy part became corrupted and degenerate.

“Besides, the question of prostitutes will give rise to many serious problems here. Take them back to productive work, bring them into the social economy. That is what we must do. But it is difficult and a complicated task to carry out in the present conditions of our economic life and in all the prevailing circumstances. There you have one aspect of the women’s problem which, after the seizure of power by the proletariat, looms large before us and demands a practical solution. It will give us a great deal of work here in Soviet Russia. But to go back to your position in Germany. The Party must not in any circumstances calmly stand by and watch such mischievous conduct on the part of its members. It creates confusion and divides the forces. And you yourself, what have you done against it?”
marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1920/lenin/zetkin1.htm

This is what happens when a liberal wants to claim to be a marxist.

Is that what ⛏️rotsky's mom said?

Trotsky
test

they should legalize it and also loli gf prostitutes

Prostitution should be legalized under capitalism so that it can be regulated. Otherwise we push it underground, where sex workers are the subject of all kinds of abuse. Under communism it obviously won't exist.

I don't know why this is even a thread.

Prostitutes should be executed as per Lenin

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The argument many left-wing women make is that its no different from any other work and we're all forced to sell our bodies under capitalism.

You take that back! Prostitutes are the vanguard you armchair socialist!

cnbc.com/id/46882510/

Spanish Sex Workers Strike Against Bankers

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tell that the underaged girls being smuggled, drugged and raped until they grow too old for the market
rhetorics aside, being assaulted like that is different to other wage slavery

You know this trotfaggot is only speaking on the behalf of camwhores and other sheltered white narcissists.

But you're acting like slave labor doesn't exist in other industries. Should we outlaw brickmaking because India enslaves:

MILLIONS

of bricklayers in said profession?

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read again, come back with an actual reply to what was said
you are just completely ignoring anything written and repeat the exact point i was invalidating

I'm saying you didn't invalidate it. You just made an emotional ploy stache man.

Lol, this is high liberal theory I take it?

jk though, your in disingenuousness shows that you're not interesting in making a point but rather disregarding one made by pushing a false equivalence
you are retarded

I believe that's called "human trafficking", not prostitution.

You implying the former does not fuel the latter?

Pot calling the China.

very impressive, totally showed me how utterly retarded and useless you are, liberal
totally got me there

...

No more than house building fuels cowboy builders.

retarded liberal

One is sexual slavery, the other sexual work. There's a difference.

see
but let me repeat it for you since you are an imbecile:
you're a retarded liberal

retarded
liberal

I already answered it and mate to be honestly, I really don't a fuck what you think I am.

All work is exploited under capitalism.

not one argument adressed and made
retarded liberal at it again

I have addressed all arguments made, all you have is childish insults.

to

Where is YOUR argument?

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What surplus value is a cam-whore creating?