Nick Land Land

What ideology is this show? Is it leftist / liberal / fascist or what?

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westworld is feminist u/acc

This show really is not about class tbh.

Maybe only about how power creates fun and how the rich are basically subhuman phychopaths by the very fact that they are rich. The main antagonist started out as a nice guy after all.

You cannot comprare the robot-human difference to racial devides. Doing so would be the epitome of burgerdom. Races are not different from each other, they can blend, the lines are arbitary, robot-human differences are clear and non-changable, even if the androids think like humans.

Only watched first season because show was formularic and trying really hard to be thought-provoking and something………
Show seemed mostly apolitical since sentient AI is not a problem any political ideology is faced with, marxist analysis of this show is fruitless……….

I didn't get anything from season one. Season two, though, could be seen as a negative critique of ethno-nationalism; that a subject people, after rising up against their masters, becomes incredibly destructive and violent against both their former rulers and themselves, and will ultimately never be satisfied even if they achieve their own emancipation. This probably wasn't intentional, considering the second season was written by excessively-woke liberals.

Not explicitly, but what are the machines other than capital? The idea that capital itself becomes a revolutionary subject makes this show anti-Marxist, but does that make it anti-materialist also?

I don't think wealth has anything to do with it really. You don't have to be rich to enjoy shooting up a bunch of npcs in RDR2. Westworld has a very peculiar set of morals. In the 1st season the character Logan is presented as a bad guy because he goes to park to have fun, have sex, and shoot up some hosts, but who wouldn't in his situation? The park is supposed to be a fantasy for the guests, none of them know the hosts are sentient. Why is this wrong?

Well this is an American tv show

There is a difference though. The more realistic NPC's get, the less enjoyable mindless slaughter becomes. Can you imagine if every kill in red dead redemption was like that scene in GTA V where you had to torture that guy? Now crank it up to one thousand and imagine if all the people you kill are indistinguishable from real people, and beg for their lives. Only a psychopathic sadist could find pleasure in their suffering. It stops being a power fantasy, and starts being a torturefest.

I don't know how emotionally damaged you are, but I get the urge to throw up at the thoughts of doing what he did, even if it is to a robot. The torture, the rape, the killing of a mother and child. How can only normal human being do that for fun? Nobody in the right mind would "do that in that situation".
A core point of the show is showing how the guests dehumanize the hosts, how they lose all empathy. William at first responds how any normal person would, with disgust to the deeds done by these people, with compassion for what seem to be humans, with empathy. It is only after times and times of near brainwashing that "they're not human" (the same dehumanization again) that he slowly changes, it is only after he no longer faces any consequences for his gruesome actions that he stops seeing them as human, and starts seeing them as video game characters. These are the same circumstances the super rich are subjected to, they are told the working class are basically subhuman, and they never face consequences for their actions. They get conditioned into seeing others as merely pawns for their play.

Maybe I am just a big softie with too much empathy, but I took put down GTA 4 for a year after one of the cops I shot started begging for his life in the pre-recorded death spasms and talking about his kid at home. Even a pixilated, clearly non-sentient npc, played on my empathy enough to do that. I cannot imagine myself ever doing the depraved, psychopathic actions taken by the guests in the show. Anyone capable of doing those things show a clear lack of empathy, because empathy is not limited to "realness", you also have empathy with people in books, or films. Doing those depraved things for fun shows a lack of empathy that is without a doubt also present in their interactions with real people. Which would not be a surprise in the series, as all the guests are rich ass bourgies (the tickets are expensive as fuck).

You dont have to drag everyone in burgerstan down with you if they try to crawl out.

Shit I didnt even know season two had already started and also finished. Gotta watch that soon.

You are confusing Logan with William. The worst thing Logan did if I remember was cut open Dolores to try snap William out of his entrancement to her. Most of hosts he killed he just shot.

Well it's a bit all over the place. Clearly there is a class relation between the guests and the hosts, but it's not a typical one, I mean they have the technology to pretty much construct a quasi-sentinent android with an iPad, so not much labor is required, it is merely entertainment.

I think the show isn't really about class and definitely not about capitalism. The focus seems to be transhumanism, but even that is not really fleshed out that well. I feel like in the end Westworld is just another self-serving complicated story for pure entertainment like Interstellar or Memento. There is no message (there easily could be), it just wants to be a complicated story with lots of twists.

The show is Gnostic nonsense. Any connections to class politics is purely coincidental.

If you want to watch as show with class struggle: The Expanse.

It's a clash of civilizations/race war scenario

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Logan is only a bad guy from within William's perspective where he sees the hosts as real-ish people and from within the hosts' fictional stories. The end of their arc in season 1 shows that Logan was just trying to help William to realize that he was playing a video game. They set him up as an asshole to help sell him as an apparent villain, that's all. He did basically nothing wrong.


Yeah, but that's before he has enough exposure to the hosts to see them behave like AI. Logan has been a few times and seen the hosts loop. William doesn't see that until he finds Dolores having been reset after dying. That's the point where he realizes it's all fake. Before that when he went wild on the park he still saw the hosts as human more or less, just that his rampage was justified because he was trying to save the girl.
Yeah but if you see the same animations and hear the same lines it breaks the immersion and you can't help but see them as fake.

That claim doesn't come from Ford originally, however. That comes from the AI tasked with recreating human consciousness in The Forge. Given the show had earlier presented an AI recreation of Ford operating in The Cradle, it is reasonable to presume this AI is aware of what the process entails and has little reason to lie to Dolores and Bernard when talking with them.

The AI is trying to build human simulations based on their park behavior and their own memories. The park behavior is an extremely specific context and human memories are far from reliable. There's also the open question about why human copies fall apart when put outside the simulation, which suggests that the simulations don't quite match the real world.

it's liberal.

Yes, that's something the AI in question directly states. It then proceeds to immediateely explain that those errors were due to the assumption of complexity. Did you even watch the show?

At the point where they talk to the AI, human copies in physical bodies still aren't viable. William says that the engineers think stability is a few years away. The most recent failed test was conducted a matter of days prior to this.

We don't see much of the outside world, but from what some characters say, I think it might be a fusion of a cyberpunk and liberal utopian (like Star Trek) setting. The only humans we see are the workers, who we can assume are normal folks (maybe middle class rather than proles), management and the patrons (who are from the privileged classes). Ford in one episode states something like humanity has cured all disease and has reached the end of its advancement. Since the world still has rich and workers, we can assume they still have liberal capitalism. Thus, the show does fall within the realm of P U R E I D E O L O G Y, as it views our current paradigm as the end of history, something from which the social question has been answered (in the liberal mind, at least). So it's liberal utopianism to the degree that the writers believe the world's problems would (or even could) be solved by liberalism, but it has a little fo the cynical outlook of cyberpunk, in that the end of history has been reached but people's lives are still meaningless, cogs moving in the machine of capitalism, hence why the people who can afford it (the bourgies) seek to escape their reality in Westworld.

I'm thinking you might be right.

Yeah.

I assume they get into that in season 2?
A N A R C H O - T R A N S H U M A N I S M
I N T E N S I F I E S

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Didn't the AI say he'd figured it out and it was the assumption of free will was the problem and then stated humans were trapped on their own loops because of some sort of biological hard determinism?

No, I think it's still a mystery why human hosts deteriorate in the real world

Why people still watch tv show after The Sopranos ended?

Because the after credit scene made it clear the machines did figure it out and had full control of it.