Democratic Party?

Why are organizations like the ISO and SAlt supporting Democrats in local elections?
What is the rationale of so-called revolutionary socialists working with people running within the Democratic Party?

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marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1907/jan/20.htm
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It's opportunism and social fascism. Usual stuff for socdems and trots.

How dare Debs start off in the democrats! Social fascist! Traitor! Puppet!

So he ran as a Democrat from prison, interesting to know.

SAlt supported her but it was like "hey i like you but you're a dumbass for running in the democrats"

Shifting the Overton window, making the Democratic party eat itself, reclaiming "socialism" from the ranks of the 4-letter words of American politics.

Opportunists >>>/out/
read lenin

yikes

...

i don't know about the situation in the USA but there's a wide variety of strategies you can legitimately persue based on Marxist principles
even some sort of "antimonopolistic democracy" can be persued under certain conditions as a step forward in the struggle for socialism
however i'm very sceptical that this applies to any of those organisations capability, actual goal and the current situations requirements

the cross linking /out/ meme is really bad, don't do it
it directs dumb people to small comfy boards

First thread I see is 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧fashwave🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

What a dumbass, she actually got elected. Why would we actually want to accomplish things?

what are those "things" you want to "accomplish"?
getting a comfy seat for her in congress?
good job, i suppose.
deepening already existing illusions into this party? you succeeded.
actual leftist policies?
you are fucking retarded to pat yourself on the back if you really believe this is a step into that direction, euthanasia is in order.

It's just a political party.
It's malleable.

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I'm not keen about socialists trying to form some leftist faction in the Democratic Party, but I will say that these people are doing far more than the majority of us here.

if you go subterrain level to set the bar then fine, i guess i can give you that, you did something
still not impressive

Redirecting discontent with the two party system back into the blue colored one is opportunism.
I don't doubt her intentions but it's extremely easy to armchair quarterback the Democrat's electoral strategies, and sliding into the cesspit of congress isn't insurmountable either. Actually delivering on all or nothing demands like universal healthcare means going to war with the health insurance lobbies and pharmaceutical companies, which is a lot tougher than running a better campaign than an anonymous empty suit in a primary.

Electoral politics is where the political consciousness of the working class is, so socialists ought to participate within that realm or they surrender it to the right.

I don't think running socialists under the Democratic banner will lend them the degree of legitimizing power you think it does. Look at each and every one of these campaigns, they all had to fight the party itself to grasp the nomination, to get elected. And sooner or later, the DNC will purge the socialists from its ranks. It will alienate itself from the left and the working class. It's only a matter of time. In the meantime, building power and support, and pushing the DNC towards that event horizon is productive.

The Bolsheviks were a parliamentary party before 1917.

And when they do, the Dems will cease to function as a party, leaving a vacuum that can be exploited.

Why would you do that to /out/? It is such a nice little board.

He ran as a democrat before there was a viable socialist political party and use the experience he gained to form his own political movement after having support. The US is a unique beast: there hasn't been a third party in its legislature since 1950. Give a first-time lass a break.

Good idea.

"When a socialist really believes in a Black-Hundred danger and is sincerely combating it—he votes for the liberals without any bargaining, and does not break off negotiations if two seats instead of three are offered him. For instance, it may happen that at a second ballot in Europe a Black-Hundred danger arises when the liberal obtains, say, 8,000 votes, the Black-Hundred representative or reactionary, 10,000, and the socialist 3,000. If a socialist believes that the Black-Hundred danger is a real danger to the working class, he will vote for the liberal. We have no second ballot in Russia, but we may get a situation analogous to a second ballot in the second stage of the elections. If out of 174 electors, say, 86 are of the Black Hundreds, 84 Cadets and 4 socialists, the socialists must cast their votes for the Cadet candidate, and so far not a single member of the Russian Social-Democratic Labour Party has questioned this."

marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1907/jan/20.htm

Holy shit, never knew Lenin was Popular front gang. Noted.

Tbh the DNC has basically purged bernie (that was the plan anyways), so by 2020 a lot of them will leave and that is when the fun starts.

If actual Socialists ever end up gaining any sort of influence in the Democrats, they would just end up being expelled like what revisionist Labour did to Militant in the 80s.
If Americans are interested in building global socialism, they should advocate anti-war candidates and candidates that support abolishing FPTP and replacing it with PR-STV.

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This

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Being expelled by the Democrats is frustrating enough. A significant anti-war movement in the shorter term would have the federal deep state on your ass.
Besides, Americans tend to be extremely ignorant of history outside of their own country. You will literally get called a tinfoil hat for discussing things the US government has actually done.

Because democraps are communists, duh.

So she won the primary, pretty much guaranteeing her the seat in Congress.

I hope SALt is able to hold this Drmocrat opportunist under discipline.

False equivalence. There are no US politicians even remotely like his platform today.

You think Debs ran to the Indiana congress on the same platform he did in 1920? Heck the Democratic party back then was more right wing than it is today: it's almost like people radicalise and split.

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Because Trump said "grab her by the pussy" and the Democrats say nice things about various minority groups.
Economic policy is no longer relevant to socialists. The most important thing is making sure feminist capitalist war-hawks win against bigoted capitalist war-hawks.

Isn't it a good thing that we got a socialist of any degree to this position at all, especially in the US? I fail to see the problem of inserting people into the party; the problem is trying to "reform" the party, or compromising with the establishment, in the typical social democrat fashion.

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i'll assign the name "retardposter" to you

and now continue explaining how the situation is comparable to a democratic party with a liberal running within it and why communists should get people to join that other party
this isn't even quote mining, you're not even trying

I personally see nothing wrong with a hostile socdem/demsoc takeover of the democratic party, with more key victories like this the Clintonites and neoliberals can be forced out. It's important to remember that there is nothing about pursuing electoral victories that prevents you from also adopting revolutionary strategies, or tactics that operate outside the state itself (ie general strikes, civil disobedience, boycotts, sabotage, etc.) If anything a dual approach targeting both the ballot box and the streets is the only way to get anything done. Sympathetic forces in the legislature can easily aid the worker's movement by crippling law enforcement (restricting their ROE and cutting funding for example), crippling the ability of money to influence politics (limits on campaign donations, etc.), and passing laws that protect worker's movements and organized labour. On the flip side, direct action can be used to pressure the state to make concessions and weaken its position. In other words, reform and revolution aren't mutually opposed, but instead they have the capability to reinforce one another. To abandon the ballot box is to abandon a critical tool in the class struggle, especially since there is nothing about running for public office that stops your movement from also organizing direct action or even militancy. It's important to remember that all praxis must be conditioned to the circumstances of a particular time and place, so breaking out quotes from Lenin, Mao, or even Marx about how to pursue socialism, as if we should follow them word for word, is pure dogmatism, and makes no sense.

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from what i understand, this is not just about a vote, it was about actively getting people to register as democrats and followers of ocasio-cortez. from what i've seen this is not about a concious planted liberal as a tool for our own means, but propaganda directly for her liberal agenda itself.
there's a clear difference.

The problem with trying to take over the Demonrats is it's been tried many times and always failed, with the rebel leadership being subsumed back into the neoliberal blob. Joining the dems means you can't run as an independent socialist, and have to raise a ton of money to compete in a primary where the rules are set by unaccountable party bureaucrats and the voting base skews wealthy and old (and brain damaged by corporate media)..
I hope there are more mild successes like Ocasio-Cortes but at the end of the day it's a capitalist party that stands in the way of the independent political organization of the working class.

They will be forced out. The demographics are changing. The younger generation, influenced by Sanders, are pushing for more socialist causes. Hell, even the boomers who vehemently hate Sanders for cursing shilldog still love his platform.

Titles are spooks. Objectives are all that matter.

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But they own the party you fucking retard. THEY OWN THE DEMOCRAT PARTY. They can literally just make rules against socialism or whatever bullshit you socdems are pushing.

I'm not sure why ☭TANKIE☭s are getting salty about this, is she libsoc or something or does this fly in the face of muh vanguard or something

No reason not to support reformist candidates while the real socialist movement increases in strength and a real leftist, organized workers' movement is established unless you believe in accelerationism. Normalizing the term "socialism" is also a reason for why this should be done.

Sectarianism is fun and all, but it's just gonna weaken us in the long term.

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How are we going to do that though?

Anyone who's serious about their socialist credentials should pledge not to approve a dime of appropriations for the wars. If they continue to fund the forever war and its attendant industries they're revealing themselves as imperialist collaborators, which socdemcs have been since 1914.

I giggled

Try agitating for it (but low-key), at least to people you think might be sympathetic to it. If they work 60 hours a week just to make ends meet, chances are they're gonna want a change if they're just deprogrammed from their liberal mindset and anti-socialist propaganda. Hatred of Wall Street also seems to be commonplace, and agitating against it should really and I mean really really really be the domain of the left.

Just be careful about it unless you want to get fired, at least initially. Also keep in mind that I'm not American, so I understand that this is far easier said than done.

It'll never happen if the left just gives up. That's a certainty

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The only """""left""""" of any relevance in the US is idpol liberals. There are socialist orgs but they're all backwater as fuck. Unless we can flip the democrats somehow (if Cortez is hiding her power level) I don't have much faith

Rome wasn't built in a day, comrade. I think we can both agree that defeatism won't lead us anywhere, though

Probably the worst GMiL comic.

Reformism hits hard limits eventually, but it does have real world impacts. Only an idiot would say that FDR or Attlee had no effect when they were elected on reformist platforms.

You can support the working class without supporting their oppressors.

And then Debs realized that the Democratic Party would function only to co-opt and destroy the socialist movement which is why he ran as an independent. He didn't compromise his dignity.