I saw a thread going around on twitter about some MLs saying they hated seeing Anarchists, Trots, Leftcoms, basically any non-ML leftist using the hammer and sickle symbol. They argued that it was a symbol that should only be used by supporters of the USSR, that it has always been a Soviet symbol. What d'y'all think? What do you think of people using it more as a shorthand for Socialism, on par with the red flag, rather than a specific brand of Leftism?
Does The Hammer and Sickle "Belong" to Marxist-Leninists?
Jack Davis
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Tyler Parker
twitter "MLs" that care about such petty non issues shouldn't be taken serious, it's hardly worth creating a thread on it
just disregard them as retarded
yes, it's a soviet symbol
but even fucking nazbols misuse it now
they need to grow the fuck up and get over this shit
btw everyone in that image you posted held Stalin in high regard
none of them felt that way about ⛏️rotsky
Brandon Hall
literal autism
Jacob Wright
…Trotsky
Chase Howard
For a second there I thought the BO had set it up so ⛏️rotsky automatically became ⛏️rotsky.
Anthony Reed
Oh. Yep. There it is.
Ryan Torres
Maoists use it all the time, and they consider the USSR to have reverted to capitalism when cornman took over
Gavin Brooks
don't they have some resident leftcoms too
Austin Gray
The symbolism is a bit dated, peasants + factory workers is a pretty specific historical context. That said, the symbol itself has transcended that meaning but largely because of retarded anti-communist media trying to turn it into a cursed symbol like the swastika.
I've never seen a better symbol for socialism though, and the hammer and sickle might unironically be the single most aesthetically pleasing symbol ever created in human history.
Blake Garcia
I know where this meme comes from. While there was funding from Germany and probably other western countries , it wasn't as prominent or as relevant as suggested. Proofs to this are just some money found in ⛏️rotsky wallet and some lenin stuff.
This is simply false
Also everyone knows Gorbachev was a fucking sellout
Julian Russell
Fuck off.
Asher Turner
Trots are ML
But the symbol is not that important and is a nice sympol to be used by all leftist
Angel Peterson
>>>Zig Forums
Liam Wilson
both are literal neocon propagandists who support "america is communist" tier conspiracy theories
Liam Rogers
Lenin literally said that ⛏️rotsky should be his successor as leader of the Bolshevik party and explicitly said that Stalin was power-hungry and should be ousted. And he was right, too.
Hunter Bailey
Oh fuck, I cahn't believe they've dahn this.
Camden Powell
no, he didn't?
if we're operating on the fact that the two "testaments" are real (which is already a stretch since Lenin was already mostly paralyzed by that point, and neither of the letters seem to follow the standard procedures for dictation), they mostly focus on general criticisms of all the leaders of the party.
Stalin was accused of being too "rude", and the only reason people come with this idea that ⛏️rotsky was the choice of successor was that he had the least amount of bad things said about him. In any case, Stalin had already been the chosen leader and had been working with Lenin for months, so I don't see why some out of the blue criticism of him should bar him from political service altogether
Dylan Perry
Only StaliNEETs now try to say they are fake, as you said everyone was criticized
Most of them are real. But his wife could have made up some of them (though it’s pretty clear that Stalin acting like a dick to Linins wife hurt Lenin to)
Stalin by killing other bolsheviks betray Lenins hope for unity,also Stalin was somewhat of a newcomer to the who will become the new leader, so i dont think that he was destined to become the new leader
Anyway ,who cares what the bald guy said, we realized what Stalin worth when he started killing his comrades
Jonathan Thompson
Trotsky has never yet held a firm opinion on any important question of Marxism. He always contrives to worm his way into the cracks of any given difference of opinion, and desert one side for the other. At the present moment he is in the company of the Bundists and the liquidators. And these gentlemen do not stand on ceremony where the Party is concerned.
Trotsky behaves like a despicable careerist and factionalist of the Ryazanov-and-co type. Either equality on the editorial board, subordination to the central committee and no one's transfer to Paris except ⛏️rotsky's (the scoundrel, he wants to 'fix up' the whole rascally crew of 'Pravda' at our expense!) – or a break with this swindler and an exposure of him in the CO. He pays lip-service to the Party and behaves worse than any other of the factionalists.
In the very first words of his resolution ⛏️rotsky expressed the full spirit of the worst kind of conciliation, 'conciliation' in inverted commas, of a sectarian and philistine conciliation, which deals with 'given persons' and not the given line of policy, the given spirit the given ideological and political content of Party work.
…
It is in this that the enormous difference lies between real partyism; which consists in purging the Party of liquidationism and otzovism, and the 'conciliation' of ⛏️rotsky and Co., which actually RENDERS THE MOST FAITHFUL SERVICE TO THE LIQUIDATORS AND OTZOVISTS, AND IS THEREFORE AN EVIL THAT IS ALL THE MORE DANGEROUS TO THE PARTY THE MORE CUNNINGLY, ARTFULLY AND RHETORICALLY IT CLOAKS ITSELF WITH PROFESSEDLY PRO-PARTY, PROFESSEDLY ANTI-FACTIONAL DECLAMATIONS.
The struggle between Bolshevism and Menshevism is… a struggle over the question whether to support the liberals or to overthrow the hegemony of the liberals over the peasantry. Therefore to attribute [as did ⛏️rotsky] our splits to the influence of the intelligentsia, to the immaturity of the proletariat, etc, is a childishly naive repetition of liberal fairy-tales.
…
Trotsky distorts Bolshevism, because he has never been able to form any definite views on the role of the proletariat in the Russian bourgeois revolution.
…
Therefore, when ⛏️rotsky tells the German comrades that he represents the 'general Party tendency' I am obliged to declare that ⛏️rotsky represents only his own faction and enjoys a certain amount of confidence exclusively among the otzovists and the liquidators.
It is an adventure in the ideological sense. ⛏️rotsky groups all the enemies of Marxism, he unites Potresov and Maximov, who detest the 'Lenin-Plekhanov' bloc, as they like to call it. ⛏️rotsky UNITES ALL THOSE TO WHOM IDEOLOGICAL DECAY IS DEAR; ALL WHO ARE NOT CONCERNED WITH THE DEFENCE OF MARXISM, all philistines who do not understand the reasons for the struggle and who do not wish to learn, think and discover the ideological roots of the divergence of views. At this time of confusion, disintegration, and wavering it is easy for ⛏️rotsky to become the 'hero of the hour' and gather all the shabby elements around himself. The more openly this attempt is made, the more spectacular will be the defeat.
It is impossible to argue with ⛏️rotsky on the merits of the issue, because ⛏️rotsky holds no views whatever. We can and should argue with confirmed liquidators and otzovists, but it is no use arguing with a man whose game is to hide the errors of both these trends; in his case the thing to do is to expose him as a diplomat of the smallest calibre.
Trotsky's dirty campaign against Pravda is one mass of lies and slander… This intriguer and liquidator goes on lying right and left.
What a swine this ⛏️rotsky is – Left, phrases, and a bloc with the Right against the Zimmerwald Left!! He ought to be exposed (by you) if only in a brief letter to Sotsial-Demokrat!
There is also a letter from Kollontai who… has returned to Norway from America. N. Iv. and Pavlov… had won Novy Mir, she says,… but … ⛏️rotsky arrived, and this scoundrel at once ganged up with the Right wing of Novy Mir against the Left Zimmerwaldists!! That's it!! That's ⛏️rotsky for you!! Always true to himself, twists, swindles, poses as a Left, helps the Right, so long as he can…
Yeah, Lenin loved ⛏️rotsky
Joseph Richardson
That is from when ⛏️rotsky was still a menshevik and didn't earned Lenin's trust you faggot.
Leo Roberts
emoticon-raising-an-eyebrow-looking-into-top-left-corner-rubbing-its-chin.png
Adam Gray
BO is a retard who (fortunately) can't into regex
Tyler Carter
emoticon-raising-an-eyebrow-looking-into-top-left-corner-rubbing-its-chin-rotating-in-forward-spin-motion.gif
Luis Hill
We have said this like a billion times
Lenin said all that before the revolution(when they were political enemies) .
After the bolsheviks took power Lenin was positive to Lev(like all his comrades in the party)
Also he has criticized many other leftist to.
Btw why do retarded mls(all of them staliNEETs,trots etc) like having a cult around Lenin, if you think someone is a great theorist you dont have to ask the bald mummy in moscow what he thinks about.
Stop being fucking cultist
Adrian Fisher
All of them wanted to hide the document cause the bolsheviks were all powerhungry faggots but Stalin is the greatest faggot of all
Also Lev wanted to actually sow them i think
Adrian Clark
nice attempt at creating an equivalence here, but it's non existent
Ethan Bennett
that baseless ⛏️rotskyite myth again
is there anything else coming or can we just agree on you having nothing to back up any of that shit?
usually you choose to just shit it up with a flood of dirt you keep throwing, so i'll say it in advance:
sauce that isn't trotskies irritated butthurt crying
Brody Butler
I dont think the testiments hand down any political posts anyway and no one ever said this itt
Liam Long
He didn't earn Lenin's trust because he abandoned his ass in 1903
Connor Smith
Come on nigga, if that was true Zig Forums would have 1/4 of his population, most of us are Zig Forumstards reformed
Everyone has to have a dick to suck mate, if you don't suck dick you are not a true theorist
Jose Anderson
The case for making the testament more widely available was undermined by the consensus within the Party leadership that it could not be printed publicly as it would damage the Party as a whole.
Wikipedia
Are you the slav that says wikopedia is full of trots, if not then is clear that the cpsu tried to protect there asses from the proles also i an not a trot sry
I like how Stalineets try to put people into boxes but this shit happens from the days of ismal on revleft
Same old arguments from all members of the cult i see
Ethan Evans
...
Christopher Clark
are you genuinly retarded? do you need a machine to breath for your dysfunctional brain being incapable of basic tasks?
Isaac Torres
Great proud to see our cults special historians spreading the true history
Fuck those people with degrees….
Brody Richardson
a person with a degree can still lie. reference most of the american leadership for the last 20 years.
William Carter
No it may have ML roots but its a great symbol of communism and class collaboration and should be used by communist the world over. Also don't avoid leftytwitter its hard on you long term.
Caleb Stewart
I don't think you understand what that means
Hudson Bennett
No. Kotkin states that it is almost certainly a scheme cooked up by krupskaya and lenin's daughter even if there were some true sentiments in it.
Jaxon Reed
This has been proven categorically false since the 1990s in western scholarship. Such assertions of stalin's sudden rise were slander from the get go. Stalin had been a protege of Lenin's and already belonged to the top leadership since the early 1910s. ⛏️rotsky on the otherhand joined the Bolsheviks in mid 1917. Not that I support stalin you're just spouting slander.
Mason Lopez
It wasn't hidden at all. The document was widely circulated among the Party and discussed at all levels throughout the 1920s. In fact, it was a source of great insecurity for Stalin and everyone in the party knew it, even in the depths of the Terror.
David Hall
again, this is based on outdated historiography. this view was the consensus 25 years ago, when we didn't have access to the soviet archives. It was assumed the Testament was suppressed. In actuality it wasn't and became widely known including in the West where copies or rumors of it were smuggled out.
Jason Cook
Yes but the "party" isnt the proles
Leon was forced to send a letter to western leftist, so they dont have problems.
While this is true i dont really think that most people expected Stalins rise
He was not as succesful as others in the party
Lincoln Martin
let them use it, its a fucking powerful symbol
also they inadvertently give support to the most successful revolution weve yet seen
Grayson Edwards
Collaboration between the proletariat and peasantry. Two classes.
Jose Jones
Joshua Hill
well memed my friend but what's your point
Adrian Powell
my point is that you're full of shit
Nathan Brooks
Not him, but "class collaboration" is usually a fascist thing. The proletariat accepting their domination by the bourgeoisie as "natural" or whatever shit and coming together for the "good of the nation."
William Cox
I didn't make the first post calling it class collaboration but the hammer and sickle represents an alliance between the peasantry and the urban proletariat, two classes. Literally class collaboration, collaboration between classes. You're used to hearing "class collaboration" in discussions about fascism or social democracy so your retarded brains short circuit when you see it used in another context, even though it was a completely appropriate use of the term.
Wyatt Morgan
Don't know what to tell you it might be more associated with fashy fucks but as it stands the the hammer and sickle is a sign of the peasantry class and proletariat class collaborating together .
Jace Perry
I find anarchists using it highly ironic considering Leninists killed them, Stalinists purged them and then Maoists fucked over them.
Nolan Foster
[spectacle intensifies]
Nicholas Foster
So I can freely loot ideas from every ideological line? Great
Nathaniel Smith
Just be aware of their expiration dates