Hey, guys. I'm new. I just have a question and thought you guys might anwser me: basically...

is correct

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I don't see how that Lenin quote applies to modern democracies. The quote seems to imply that it's the threat of martial law stopping people from voting for communists. Are you implying that people aren't voting for communism because they're afraid the state will declare martial law and hunt them down and kill them (despite anonymous voting) if they vote for communists?

Except that it has gained a great deal of support in many places? The rise of fascism in the early 20th century was the ruling class's reaction to the increasing popularity of communism, to the point that they had to adopt the language and symbolism of the left in order to gain support. Support waned during the mid-20th century due to a combination of violent suppression (McCarthyism, espionage act, etc) and appeasement in the form of things like regulations and concessions- the New Deal ultimately SAVED capitalism in the US. The modern resurgence of both the far right and the far left is a result of those reforms slowly being eroded and people's material conditions worsening as a result- the far left by recognizing the failures of the capitalist system and the far right by misinformation and blaming it on various scapegoats. The fact that you have no fucking clue what communism even is just demonstrates how effectively the ruling class has managed to brainwash people like you- you hate it because you've been told to, despite the fact that you don't even know what it is.

I just… what? I was expecting something retarded along the lines of "its when you have big gubmint and it does stuff" but this doesn't even begin to make any sense. IIRC isn't "Christian slave morality" about NOT upsetting the status quo and refusing to attempt to change the system? You know, the complete opposite of what communists want? If anything, you're describing what guys like that Canadian lobster fetishist advocate for.

I'm the first guy you replied to. You make a good point, but what's with the irrelevant accuations that I don't know what communism is? You're really adamant about it. All I said was that communism is overwhelmingly voted against. Are you saying you have some alternative definition of communism that disputes that fact?

That lobster canook is himself a preacher of secular slave morality, just of a different flavor.

Even bourgeoisie academics admit that bourgeois democracy is a farce.
cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B
Aside from the minority control that is awarded to the bourgeoisie through their disproportionate wealth and control of the productive process there are also fundamental ideological mechanisms which dictate that capital reigns supreme. The logic that circumscribes what is perceived as possible for the vast majority of people is ultimately delineated by the law of value and the market imperatives which govern not only production but our social relations.

Communism seeks to transcend both the master and the slave so that doesn't quite work. Also as with most Abrahamic religions Christianity is ultimately a philosophy of resignation. It tells it's followers to endure this living death until they can be reborn again into paradise after death. This passivity and acceptance of the status quo are completely antithetical to communism's explicit demand for radical change in the here and now.

Systems were put in place to make the vote of the common person basically meaningless well before universal suffrage was achieved.

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Who gives a shit about bourgeois elections?
jacobinmag.com/2017/07/russian-revolution-bolshevik-party-july-days

nigger it's the same fucking system
the state is controlled by capitalists

t. illiterate

It doesn't matter what communism or communists claim to be. The only thing that matters is how they manifest in reality, existentially. A preacher of Christianity tells you to abstain, that the elite won't get into heaver, that the meak shall inherit the kingdom of D-g, and right after that he goes and snorts a line of coke from the ass of the altar boy.
The preacher of communism claims they fight for the workers, and that the meak shall inherit the paradise on Earth, from which the current elite will be excluded, while he himself is not a member of the working class, and right after the revolution he and his friends becomes the new ruling class.
In short, communists, just as Christians, won't to be rich and successful, but they can't, so they attack the elite asymetrically, by claiming that being rich and successful is shameful and sinful.
Just take Christianity, remove all paranormal entities like D-g and angels, and you are left with communism.

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wtf i love capitalism now

the edge, it cuts

Thank you.

Marxists are not moralists, you fool. This just proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

>I'm the kind of guy that prides himself being that guy
a.k.a. a complete faggot

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It's still not an argument. Marxism is a direct descendant of Western Christian tradition. Purely genetically it's a form of Christianity, just as Christianity is a form of Judaism.

HURRR

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Pic related
That may be true for 1900
But today people can read Marx for free on the internet.
Also it’s the old ,if you aren’t a child worker in India, you are not a prole..
Well i can agree with the "lets psychoanalyze every ideologue" but then everyone is a schizo and we just have to go and start killing each other on the street purge style
Also you said
So what are we? lazy,jealous,idealist all at the same time…..
hahaahahahahhahha
retard

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I could use a little fuel myself and we could all use a little change.

Of course they're not exactly the same. But they are similar in some key regards, the presence of holy scriptures, prophets, heresies, preachers, rationalizing envy, promise of a heaven.

My point is that much of the opposition to communism is a result of misinformation- within the past few years especially there has been a massive propaganda effort by the ruling class to convince them that pretty much everything they don't like is somehow because of communism despite the fact that the establishment is thoroughly capitalist- many of them think that fucking Obama and Shillary are commies. There are well-funded social media campaigns and youtube channels spewing literal WW2-era nazi propaganda like "cultural Marxism" these days.

And that's precisely why he's so fanatically opposed to communism and shills against it constantly- he wants to maintain the status quo, while communists wish to completely change the economic system we live under. Your ridiculous claim about communism being "christian slave morality" is the exact opposite of the truth.

Again, this doesn't even make sense. You say that Christianity tells people to accept the status quo and that communism somehow says the same thing when the complete opposite is true- the goal of communists is to completely overthrow the current system. How the hell do you manage to equate "Christian slave morality" with a frickin revolution of all things?
The whole idea is to eliminate the class system, there is no ruling class under communism.
If by "rich and successful" you mean "receiving the full value of their labor", then sure. If you mean by holding power over others and exploiting them, then no.

Wow. This guy is clever.

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Yet they don't. Sounds almost like the "opression" was not the cause of proletariat's condition. Even when a shudra is given education and opportunity to better himself he prefers to remaing being a shudra.

Accept the status quo once the Christian Church is in charge, when it's wasn't in church it was telling them the exact opposite, as in pagan Roman Empire or during the Baltic crusades. Nomenclatura is against the oppresion when it's not them doing the opression, when they get the power, it's perfectly fine.

You can't you shouldn't. Imagine an ant colony without castes, imagine an organism where cells are not specialized, it's just doesn't work this way.

Well, well, about the theory of value, it's pretty much bullshit. As in, I haven't seen any proofs so I don't believe in it.

What does it bother you so much? So what if Marxism is a succesor of Christianity? Why does it matter?

Oh, you misunderstand. My beef is with Nietzscheans, especially with the online "I'm 15 and this is the edgiest philosophy I found on wikipedia" types.

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They are a lot of retarded leftist(especially here) but this is just the retarded claim of the "commmunism is likeeeee a coult" .the same can be said for other ideologies, sports teams, comic nerd the people that fuck your mother etc…
Ideologues existed from ancient Greece sry
Ehhh
How is this related to Christianity again???
Are you claiming that we are all poor proles again??
Again

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So what? Is communist a cult, or not? The fact that other things are also cult(-like) doesn't prove or disprove anything.

No, you're the lower middle classes who wants to be upper middle classes. And you despise the proletariat for not willing to support your cause of becoming the new ruling class. This board posts instults to the proletariat every day. They're brainwashed by the ruling class media, dumb, uninformed, classcucks and so on. They're the herd, you're the preacher, you promise them yet another path to salvation and are frustrated when they're smarted than to fall for that.
The proletariat consists of Jamals, Pedros and Cletuses, in case that's not clear yet.

No. How is Apple, who everyone would agree is a cult, promises a heaven?

Well then, I'm sure you're aware that Hegel invented his dialectic as an "alternative logic" of sorts in order to prove the existece of God, because it wasn't working so well with the classical logic. Rings a bell yet?

inaccurate
highly debatable

I was referring to the whole "Christian slave morality" notion that you brought up
Human beings are individuals, not fucking ants.
The fact that you view people like this certainly explains why so many of you types have zero regard for human life, though. Who cares if we just sent millions of people to their deaths, its for the good of the hive nation! Its no wonder so many of you are bitter and angry- you're so incapable of connecting with individuals at a meaningful level that you instead latch onto abstractions like >muh nayshun.
Have you tried, you know, actually READING Marx's writings?

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Ideologies cannot be a cults too broad of a category
What all of us, Jesus fucking crist, how no one saw it before, go write a book dude
Also, i don’t think nomenclature was middle class
Some of them are tbh
Also the same goes for every other ideology
Yes bro who wants to read shit anyway
Also capitalism is perfect and we have no problem cause as i said

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They literally fought for it. And it worked, your precious feudalism lost.

Then how can there be economic classes?

Yes. I've also tried reading the Bible. I didn't prove to me the existence of D-g either.
The thing is, the major reason I think communism is an atheistic/materialistic quasi-religion, is that it's not scientific in any way. Sure, it can call itself "scientific" communism, but it'll be to the same effect of "scientific" creationism, or "scien"tology.
None of it's major theses are neither verifiable nor falsifiable.

OMG i swear to any god that is the most stupid shit i have ever read.

Well, I'm sorry, I belive in the law of large numbers and therefore I also believe in stereotypes.

Capitalism is just a force of nature. Humans just like to have shit, they like to have shit more than the neighbour, they like to compete and win and they trade with each other. No amount of indoctrination will ever fix this.

Who's at the bottom of society right now? Who is forced to do all the shitty work that others are to good to do? Migrants, blacks and white trash.

No, it's just not the same. The promise of communism is literally a place where can work as much as want and have as much as you need, where humans are vindicated of their natural sin of greediness, and instead they love and share all day. A garden of Eden of some sorts, but created by men, rather then D-g.

Ok, let's play a game. What will convince a good Christian that there is no God? Nothing. He has faith. He'll ignore and shuffle around all claims, because he starts with the premise that there is a God and there cannot be, therefore if there's proof of opposite, there must be something wrong with the proof. The Bible is his source of proof, it's true because it's true, I can't be false because it cannot.
Now, what will convince a materiliast that there is a God? Obviously, an undenyable proof of God's existence. A miracle would do. Skies ripping open and a voice saying "I'm real, user, you dipshit". His "Bible" is the real world, if the real world has a God, then it has. Then he was wrong. Guess I'll be a Christian from now on haha

Ok, to the point: what will convince you that communism/value theory is wrong? Even in theory? Is there any experiment, even imaginary, that will disprove your beliefs. In other words, are your beliefs falsifiable?

Because economic class is determined by an individual's relation to the means of production. It isn't a biologically determined caste system.

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Proof. What is the social class is consequence of the caste? Because I see plenty of proofs of the contrary. Like people winning loteries and then becoming poor again in a year or two.

OK stop reading there

Ok if i fuck x
This x is rich
X dies i get the money
Also if i am x's son and get the money
I just have to hire a bunce of people to run my shit….

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Typical.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressed_research_in_the_Soviet_Union#Statistics

The guy still pays taxes on the money he gets. He creates workplaces, too. So, objectively, Porky probably contributes more to the public good than any communist on this board has ever contributed.
Yeah, but to my main claim: the real world is fundamentally unfaird. "Fairness" is a human concept, and subjective at that, what's fair for someone, is unfair for someone else. So yes, sometimes people are rich without deserving it. Paris Hilton is a good example.

fug, I guess strikethrough text doesn't work on 8chinz

Not that user, but again, the whole point is to eliminate class altogether
Insulting individuals, especially those who happen to be aut-rightist dipshits who support the ruling class, is not the same as "insulting the proletariat"
And such people deserve to live under the boot of the ruling class just because you think you think you're better than them?

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1)Ancoms dont exist
2)All people here were rich faggots that want to get richer but somehow we dont pay taxes
3)rich people dont tax-evade
4)poor people dont pay taxes
Moralism is good for you now

Moralism is bad now
So you are retarded and proud
Why are you sttill here to troll
Should we ban you???

Ants can't change their caste since it's a rigid, biologically determined system. However humans can change their relationship to the means of production. I can start a business whereas an ant drone can't decide to leave the colony to become a queen. Whether my business is successful or not is immaterial to the fact that economic class is fundamentally fluid. Now mismangaing a business or wealth isn't exclusive to lottery winners or "new money" either. Fortunes are squandered all the time. Mismanagement also doesn't mean that a person's wealth will be stripped from them as they're protected and insulated by the state. The '08 crash is a great example. Massive financial firms not only escaped the consequences of their actions but were actually rewarded for mismangaing the economy. That doesn't seem like a biologically determined system to me.

Again. I'm an existentialist. I don't care what communists claim, I care about what they actually do. Not one single time in the history of communist revolutions was there ever an attempt to liquidate classes. All of them were just a change of management.

There's no such thing as "deserve" in the real world. It's a human concept. When a dude is striken but lightning he didn't deserve it, shit just happens. Jamal was unlucky to be born of the wrong race in the wrong part of the city. Sucks for him.

It's contradictory. If everone is an individual, than it's unfair to treat them all alike. Then there's no such thing as "burge" as "proletariat", because their members are more different than similar.

Haven't finished it. Once again, good criticism of the capitalism, completely of out the ass theory of the next economic system, and self-contradictory axiomatics. Also, to me a critique of capitalism is like criticizing the Sun because it may give you skin cancer. Everyone agrees that crisises are unavoidable and cyclic, even the most hardcore invisible hand fanboys.

I'm not reading it. Surely you can give a proof of communism's falsifiability in a sentence or two, your post is way longer than that.

Since the dawn of time. There was a market even under Feudalism and Sclavagism. People have been trading with each other probably since the dawn of time. We're the only species having such a complex trading system, you can say it's part of our nature.

Ok, define communism for me. Abolition of money and public ownership of the means of production?

Just because I can't explain it it doesn't prove the value theory. It's "Nobody knows why it rains therefore Zeus" tier.
But I can point out the weak points of value theory:
1) Suppose porky hires a worker to manufacture chairs. Porky pays him $20 per hour. Suppose it takes the worker exactly one hour to manufacture one chair, essentially, Porky pays him $20 per chair. Porky then sales them for $30. So, Porky has "stolen" $10 worth of value from the worker. But what I didn't mention is that Porky also employed a night watch for his factory, whom he also payed $20 per week. How much has Porky stolen from the worker?

2) Person A manufactored a chair. He agreed to sell it to person B for $20. Person B then sold it to person C for $30. How much has been stolen from the worker?

Why do richer country have higher Autism Levels than the poor countries? Why the high Autism Level individuals earn more than low Autism Level individuals?

A worker ant could try LARPing as a warrior, he just won't be a very good warrior.
The economic disasters of communist places are workers trying to LARP as capitalists and doing a pretty shitty job at it.

Even in the most social democratic social-constructivist countries social classes are pretty much rigid.

You don't know what that word means.
You haven't read any of it. Marx doesn't theorize about communism in Capital.
Capitalism isn't merely trade or a market. It's characterized by generalized commodity production, forced entry into the market, wage labor, and private property. This is basic stuff my dude.
No but it's a pretty good indicator that you have no clue as to what you're talking about,

How is it that YOU know what 'human nature' is when you're capable of making it knowable and then helping to overcome it? If it's 'human nature', how is it that we register it at all? How is it that we know that it's inherent to humans when it need not register for us at all? We know about it therefore we can practically relate to it and work towards doing something about it. The same is literally true for expanding further into the cosmos. What you've done is assert an empiricist point of view which has long been destroyed by Marx, Engels, Lenin, Lacan and Zizek. You've confused the object of knowledge with the process of knowing. What we sense is understood in relation to other things and is not wrought from sensed data (empirical data) itself but from how we've related ourselves to it. When we try to relate to ourselves, we change ourselves. Our apprehensions of ourselves change, too.

Before you continue, read.
questionofwill.com/en/reza-negarestani-2/
marxists.org/archive/pilling/works/capital/index.htm
adventures-in-dialectics.org/Adventures-In-Dialectics/DiaRith/Intro/Dialectical-Ideography_An-Introductory-Letter.htm
dialectics.org/dialectics/Primer_files/Karl_H._Seldon_,_for_F.E.D._,_v.2.0_,_Introduction_to_'Contra-Boolean'_Thinking_,_21MAY2016.pdf

Not everything can be overcomed. A tard will never be a rocket scientist, period. No matter how much education is given to him or how much he works.
Even the social constructivist can't deny that there are retards, whose condition is biologically determined, and also natural born geniuses. So there's a gradient of retardation, and a gradient of geniality, but in the middle is big long plato of "normalcy", where everything is a social construct and any condition can be overcome.

No.

ah, yes, the soviet millionaires!

Ah, yes. The "real world" doesn't include the human world. We are external to it. And you think you are superior to Christians, lol.

Guess there was no such things as monarchs, landlords, and serfs, either.

Such as?

That porky of yours is going bankrupt very soon. It's hilarious how a shill of capitalism doesn't understand this supposed force of nature.

Also: you haven't read shit, and it shows.

Can't tell if you're being ironic. But there were undeground millionaires in the Soviet Union. But I wasn't talking about them, I was talking about the nomenclatura, which was de facto the ruling class and the exploiter of the working class.

Ok, "fairness" is subjective human concept, not an objective reality.

Law of exchange vs added value.

1) How much has Porky stolen from the night watch?
2) How much has person C stolen from person A?
Answer or gtfo.

The thought experiment you constructed is flawed because it was intentionally created as a business bound to fail: it's not making profit, in fact, your capitalist is down ten bucks an hour. Such intellectual honesty.

Oh shit, you're right, I didn't notice. Anyway, suppose
Bother worker and night watch are paid $20 per hour(per chair in case of the worker). Porky sells them for $9999999 or whatever. The question remains, how much has Porky stolen from the night watch?

Also, I like how you've just ignored the second point.

Specializations in eusocial organizisms are not "caste systems". As a point of fact, all ants in a colony are equals. Every ant can release pheramones to send instructions to every other ant who can do likewise. Ant colonies function effectively as a direct democracy.

What

Really fucking stupid question.

You can't vote away relations of production.