Redpill me on Chavez. He is unanimously brought up as a reason against pursuing socialist economics. Was he as bad as many say he has or did he do good?
Redpill me on Chavez. He is unanimously brought up as a reason against pursuing socialist economics...
Nolan Davis
Other urls found in this thread:
bloomberg.com
telesurtv.net
youtube.com
pcint.org
twitter.com
Jace Roberts
He vastly improved the Venezuelan economy, literacy rates, and living conditions. Maduro is continuing his work under extraordinary conditions of economic warfare.
Dylan Perez
He made Venezuela a richer nation than Mexico: a country that at the same time transitioned from developmentalist social democracy to neoliberalism (or the inverse Venezuela). His failures were three fold: inability to diversify away from the oil industry itself, over reliance fiscally on oil revenue, and the failure of making any proper financial reforms (which is exactly what sunk his predecessor). However Venezuela at the moment is far from some Somalia-esque state: it is more experiencing a period of crisis akin to Argentina in the early 00s or Mexico throughout the last decade, the difference being the economic warfare waged against it. Now I outlined in a previous thread what I think Maduro should do but that is besides the point. Compare Venezuela to Mexico in almost every metric and it beats it. Chavez was a good boi.
Ryder Evans
The first sentence of this poster is (mostly) correct:
However, Chavismo is basically an attempt to do what North European welfare states like Norway do where they heavily subsidize a lot of services. There's still money, there's no widespread worker ownership, production is still profit-based, there's still wage labor, and much of the economy is private.
Why is it in trouble? Undiversified economy (majorly oil-based) and a lot of price controls which lead to shortages.
Has very little to do with socialism, unless you think Norway is socialist.
Joseph Bell
He may not be socialist, but like pic related, his struggle is worth supporting because of its location in a semi-colonial country, delaying the expansion of the market and bringing the bouj economy come crashing down.
Samuel Watson
Fucking no it isn't: Chiang Kai-Shit murdered most of the trade unionists in China, worked with the reactionaries in Germany and was a general right-wing cuck. Neck yourself.
Leo Robinson
that's sun yat sen you prick
James Miller
They did have genuinely socialist sectors of the economy being developed under Chavez: worker's councils, communes, etc. Ironically, it's these communes that are saving people from starving since they're not part of the capitalist market. However, Maduro has not continued to develop these communes and has given them little recognition. I by no means believe the "dictator" bullshit about Maduro, nor do I believe he is a bad man, but he is seriously incompetent.
Camden Brown
Eh his family is also linked to corruption in the PDVSA.
Landon Evans
Wait really? Can you explain?
Joshua Bennett
People are starving and they have to ration like crazy you fucking gringo idiots, it's a failure country
Josiah Allen
Not too bad
Joshua Myers
No one here is denying that Venezuela is in a crisis.
Jace Campbell
The PSUV is a socialist party. Just because they are struggling right now, doesn't mean they aren't socialist. They are building dual power and consolidating their power in government.
Henry Price
it's papa yixian, mate
Parker Brooks
William King
He was literally terrible at economics, especially international trade
He created an unsustainable welfare state. What a goddamn fucking retard
Kevin Martinez
Benjamin Rivera
Is there any online sauce for the data showing economic growth/increased HDI under Chavez? Is there anything that correlates the downfall of Venezuela's economy with the efforts of economic warfare?
Liam Gomez
get you shit together mods.
Lucas Allen
That's sun yat sen, but admittedly, I did laugh at "chiang kai shit"
Gabriel Davis
He's stupid, socialism cannot be built in a single country, the revolution needs to be world wide, let alone if it's a third world country and his economy is based on one of the most wanted resources for capitalist countries(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
David Johnson
This ban is totally underserved. Trot user was literally arguing that Chávez was too far to the right and should have been more socialist and internationalist. Since when is that ban worthy?
Matthew Sullivan
Reminder that there are proven ongoing coup attempts against Venezuela RIGHT NOW:
bloomberg.com
Maybe we should have a bit of responsibility and not be posting "he's a retard and it's doomed anyway." Hm?
Wyatt Bennett
No, it's completely unjustified. Opposition to Socialism in One Country is ⛏️rotskyist boilerplate. This isn't even banning a rightist, but someone from the Left.
Trotanon made no mention of the right-wing opposition, nor even overthrowing Chavez, only that the Venezuelan revolution is insufficient on its own nation basis. If anything, that shows not opposition, but support for the Venezuelan Revolution; the criticism being that Chavismo isn't revolutionary enough.
The bans in these threads are ridiculous and arbitrary. We should respond to our opponents by refuting them, not by fucking banning them. This isn't a fucking rally, we aren't physically confronting reactionaries, this is literally a forum for discussion, and we should discuss these things openly.
Joseph Lee
for me, this is more than enough proof of economic warfare against Venezuela:
telesurtv.net
Jackson Martinez
So refute them, their posts weren't deleted.
Angel Jenkins
See
James Ward
He was fucking retarded.
I'm from Chile and we receive all the Venezuelans who escape from there.
Good thing all of them despise socialism.
Most of his voters were dumb, near illiterate, old people… the kind socialists love the most.
Julian Davis
That doesn't mean they are exempt from criticism. People need to remember what the phrase "critical support" actually means.
You aren't refuting them if they can't answer back.
John Scott
he's based & redpilled
millions of brown baboons are starving thanks to him
hail Chavez
Dylan White
John Adams
Critical support doesn't mean slandering the Bolivarian revolution, and moreover, critical support is a redundant concept. Plain support is not "blind support."
Zachary Evans
In the west only.
William Parker
Where’s the slander? The trot’s post was simply emphasizing the need for international revolution, which is literally a core of Marxism. If applying basic Marxist theory is “slander” of Chávez, then that should tell you that he isn’t as revolutionary as you think he is.
Noah Rogers
uhh no. I don't even really disagree that he shouldn't have been banned, but this is a stretch
Isaac Foster
Why don't mods and the BO just assume that this is a ML board and precise it in the rules?
Connor White
...
Michael Baker
Source?
Elijah Hernandez
Yes and no. He was a mediocre politician at the end of the day, but his rule is a terrible example of the failings of socialism.
Josiah Roberts
the absolute state of leftypol
Anthony Gonzalez
I'm more or less in the critical support camp but this is Jordan Peterson tier
Mason Walker
internationalism and world revolution is, not the ⛏️rotskyist conception of it however
Owen Parker
a bit of an expansion:
Trotsky's theories were extrapolated from Leninist theory, a full two decades after the death of Marx.
This means that neither ⛏️rotskyism or Leninism or whatever tendency can be the "core" of Marxism since all of these are extrapolations of how to best agitate Marx's goals into the physical world
Luke Martinez
That's literally what marxism is, an interpretation of Marx, not Marx theory in itself.
Brayden Gomez
Blake Watson
i literally only know venezuela because onlyafro lives there.
i hope the boardowner sucks as many cocks as possible
Connor Lee
I wasn’t talking about ⛏️rotskyism, but the trot user was clearly referring to Chavez’ nationalistic focus and how he needed to be more of an internationalist. Bolivarianism is pretty based, but imo it’s neither internationalist nor socialist enough.
Jonathan Murphy
My approach is a sad one, I think Chavez's contribution more locates in his old-fashioned believe in a left wing leadership, political party and allies building, and the will to carry out power.
On economic side, it's not something new.
Cameron White
that's fair
Aaron Robinson
havent been on this board in a while, i'm glad BO is finally banning the anti-communist trash
Eli Gonzalez
If you unironically think that post was in any way anticommunist then you should really change your flag.
Justin Bailey
This was pretty much the countries trots position(and they are not stupid anglo trots)
And in a prior post we were supporting the "they should be more leftist"
**i support maduro against cia funded
coups,impirialists or wtvr**
Ian Rivera
trots have been historically proven saboteurs and anti-socialist shills. how about you do flag related and learn some history?
Jason Nelson
Plz provide me so evidence
Actually many stalinist activley killed trots even when they were doing honest shit(see vietnam)
Also the guy was clearly not going to sabotge maduro(who is a socdem while you whine about anticommunistbut i dont suppprt imperialism he is democtaticly elected and a leftist )
so…
Samuel Cox
dropped. if you're serious about learning history, there are threads on /marx/ where you can get some tl;dr info on trots and you can ask ismail for further archival sources. i will neither spend time spoonfeeding you nor educating you here
Charles Morris
Ismail was and still is a faggot and talking to him is a waste of time
The conversation with him ended in revleft
He stoped being a hojaist but he is still only good for hoxha quotes
Tho he is well read in grover furr and other great and important leftist
Haha
Still we are talking about the banned guy
So explain me should we ban all people who disagree with you?
Ryder Wood
That has literally nothing to do with the current situation in Venezuela or the trot user's criticism of Chavismo, which is is firmly based in proletarian internationalism, a core communist principle.
Nathaniel Jackson
Adam Sullivan
based & redpilled spic population controller