AROUND THE ROSE

I’d need to know more about the situation in South Africa to answer that question.

Hamas was made by Israel to destroy secular groups like PLO

Jesus, OP, how did you manage to put so much faggotry in a single post?

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The problem is, demanding that Israel stop existing is basically squaring the circle. No one except for Palestinian nationalists and a few left-wing intellectuals wants Israel to be completely dissolved. Even Hamas has accepted a two-state on the 67 border. And yes, demanding that Israel be destroyed only gives fuel to the Israeli right, which would like to see every Palestinian dead.

You are a turd.

Read my post again, I specifically said that a two state solution would necessarily require Israel to grant full rights of citizenship and return to all Arabs who were displaced, and that it must end its existence as an ethnostate. So those Arabs driven from Tel Aviv or elsewhere within the ‘67 borders would be allowed to return, granted Israeli citizenship, and given equal rights.

you are delusional believing you can have a 2 state solution and not have israel continue to be an apartheid regime.
israel needs to be abolished first.
it's funny an anarkiddy would take issue with that. smells of antigerman.
a "2 state solution" that isn't a federal one is set for further failure and israels imperialist dominance and imposition against palestinians.

Israel existing in any form is imperialism.

Not as delusional as expecting Israel to willingly dissolve itself, or thinking that the Palestinians have anywhere near the strength to do it by force. The only hope is a two state solution in the short term, hopefully followed by gradual integration of Israel and Palestine into a single, multiethnic state.

BDS can destroy Israel internally, Hezbollah and Hamas can destroy them externally.

honestly what the fuck do you want to do to Israel? They're literally there already. Resorting to deportation and genocide to "stop zionism" is not exactly a very leftist position, is it?

colour me surprised.

I don’t think you know what that word means. If Israel stops its occupation of Palestinian lands and its exploitation and discrimination against Arabs, it is by definition no longer an apartheid or an imperialist state.

I've heard leftists unironically call for Israel's total destruction, and with it the lives of Israeli proles, many of whom are PoC. Anti-Zionist (read: anti-Semitic) leftists want to punish average Israelis for the crimes of Bibi and the IDF, but advocate on behalf of white proles in America, despite their status as settlers who benefit from the ongoing displacement of American Indians and the past enslavement of Blacks. What, do white Americans lose their settler status after 200+ years, but Israelis born in Israel are "settlers" because their parents or grandparents emigrated there from Europe, America, the middle-east or elsewhere?

Israel will be defeated the same way apartheid South Africa was defeated.

It is literally a state created by white European settlers.

Lmao no they can’t. Even two of the most well armed Arab nations gangbanging Israel on two fronts couldn’t even beat them in 1973. Hamas (an Israeli creation btw) is at most a nuisance. Don’t get me wrong, I fully support an armed struggle until such time as negotiations bear fruit, but any realistic assessment of the balance of power will tell you that the Palestinians can never hope to win a military victory.

60% of Israelis are Mizrahi (Arab Jews). They also overwhelmingly make up the Israeli far-right.

So you are saying that even an Israel that ceased its discrimination and imperialism would still be evil because they are FUCKING WHITE MALES?

Pretty sure this is a Zig Forums false flag at his point.

You're literally not a socialist, you're a fascist. You're the one who's a parasite. To the wall you go.

Hezbollah can defeat Israel as it attempted to do in 2006. They can fire rockets into northern Israel and effectively displace Israel's northern population all while BDS reeks havoc on Israel internally.

I remember this guy from that other Israel thread.

It's a gradual, increasingly blunt "kill ze joos" schtick in which anything less is characterized as "zionism."

They're still settler-colonials.

Hezbollah now how about 10x the number of rockets they had in the '06 and ones with much greater capability. They won't be just firing katyushas next go around. Hezbollah has been the single greatest asset for Assad other than the Russian Air Force. In return Hezbollah has gotten more sophisticated rockets and heavy weapons from Iran/Syria. They've also been rotating thousands in and out of Syria. They are much more experienced than they were 10 years ago and are combat hardened. Israel is right to be worried. For all their vaunted power, the 2006 Lebanon War was not a victory for either side. Both sides will claim a win, but Israel restructured significant parts of its military as a result. You don't do that if you're winning. I believe Hezbollah came out the better and they've shown to be adapting from lessons they've learned. They're basically the only non-retarded Arab military force (. From AARs and vidoes, I'd put the Golden Division and Tiger Forces basically on par with a bog standard Western line unit. These are the elite Arab forces currently operating in the region. Add the IRGC to that. Think about that. The most elite forces kebabs can field are equivalent to fresh out of school 18/19 year olds in the US military. As an infantry vet, that is fucking horrifying.) and they're primarily a light infantry militia.

Hezbollah causalities are estimated to be a few thousand in Syria since 2012, but there are plenty waiting to take up the cause. Tel Aviv is getting a crippled Syria out of the civil war, but a strengthened Hezbollah.

Yeah in a defensive war, if Hezbollah could pull off an invasion of Israel then they would have done it already. I’ll remind you again, Egypt and Syria invaded Israel from two fronts in 1973 with numerical and even some technological advantages and still lost.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

You are delusional and know nothing about military operations if you think that artillery or rocket bombardments are enough to topple a fucking country.

See:

Hezbollah is regrouping and getting way more powerful. They could easily destroy most of Israel's north.

If that’s true then I wish them Godspeed, but I seriously doubt it.

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BDS is a nuisance, but it's not a threat to Israel by any means. If the anti-Zionist left is putting all of its eggs in BDS's basket, it's bound for failure.

Why can't Hezbollah destroy Israel if they're adequately armed to do so?

I didn’t imply that at all. But winning a defensive geurilla campaign is a far cry from pulling off a successful invasion. The Vietnamese people successfully fought off American aggression, but it would be retarded to suggest they would be able to invade America.

Why would you be rooting for Hezbollah in the first place? They're a reactionary Islamic fundamentalist group backed by the Iranian government (who, I might add, executed and continues to persecute communists).

BDS is what killed apartheid in South Africa. Israel is particularly vulnerable in this regard because it's entirely dependent upon foreign investments. If BDS wasn't a threat to ISrael, why is BDS being banned everywhere? Why are there anti-BDS laws springing forth all over the US?

Because they aren’t adequately armed to do so. Geurilla campaigns of the kind Hezbollah must necessarily fight are always defensive. In order to pull of a successful invasion you need more than rifles, ATGMs, and mortars. Does Hezbollah have tanks? Jets? Self propelled guns? Self propelled anti aircraft batteries? Mechanized infantry? Do they have at least a 2:1 advantage in numbers? Are they prepared to handle a US intervention? If the answer to any of the above is no, then they will lose against Israel in an offensive war.

The long and short of it is that when South Africa became independent in 1947 they adopted the policies that became known as Apartheid. Essentially, during the 19th and 20th century they had imported many blacks from neighboring African regions to work on their mines, farms and factories.

Boers were like:
Well, it turned out that many of the blacks didn't really have any homeland to go back to. A "multi-state" solution of sorts was developed where blacks got 13% of the land and whites got 87% of the land.

It was very much like the American reservation system but with a crucial difference: in the 1920s Amerindians were made full citizens of the US and could leave their reservations if they wished to. Black citizens of the bantustans were not citizens of South Africa, they could not vote in South African elections, they could not marry South Africans of another race, and there was severe restrictions over where they could and could not go and when they were allowed to be there. What essentially unfolded was the creation of the most systematic racial legislation in history.

Here are some reasons for this:
1. the Bantustans were not economically self-sufficient, they were neither large enough to be independent nation-states, nor were their resources compatible to the task of supporting millions. The development that did occur was usually
2. South African capitalists still needed black labor, so they would hire black workers from the Bantustans to come work for them.

A key difference between Apartheid South Africa and modern Israel is that since when Israelis want to hire Palestinian labor, since Israel-Palestine is such a small country, many Palestinians can simply go home after their shifts are over. This wasn't possible in South Africa since its a huge fucking country about the size of the American mid-West

Therefore, Israel doesn't need the same type of systematic racial legislation to control the Palestinian population that South Africa needed. Furthermore, Israel has less use for Palestinian labor in Israel and so they favor more "Trumpian" methods of control like border walls and check points.

South Africa expelled many blacks to Bantustans but it was still within the territory of South Africa proper. Israel has expelled much of the Palestinian population outside of the territory of historic Palestine. Palestinians in Palestinian-controlled territory are a still (rather large) minority when the populations of Israel-Palestine are compared. The similarities and differences of the two regimes are interesting to say the least.

I don't think that an independent Palestinian state will be anything more than a Bantustan. It just doesn't have the size to be a functional nation state, nor could it really have sovereignty with a "pint-sized" super-power next door imo.

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Tbh it comes down the fact that at the current juncture, the problem is not whether or not Israel exists, the problem is its conduct towards the Palestinians. If Israel continues to act the way it has, then I fully support driving them into the sea. However given the realities of the balance of power, I think it’s far more likely to attempt to negotiate an end to Israel’s abhorrent behaviour, to secure full rights for any Arabs wishing to return to thei ancestral homes in Israeli territory, and to bring an end to their occupation of Palestinian lands in violation of the 1967 borders. If these things can be accomplished, then I see nothing wrong with the two state solution.

If you have no issue with a two-state "solution" you are NOT a socialist Take that sabotabby icon off your posts.

Ah I see your concern. Well again I think there could be ways to avoid such a problem. The most important issue would be finding a way to ensure the development of Palestine as a viable nation state, something I don’t think would need to be limited by its size (plenty of small countries are quite successful). So this would require some kind of negotiated aid/development package from the international community, possibly similar to the Marshall plan. In addition it may be possible to adopt system of dual citizenship, where any citizen of Israel or Palestine would be automatically elligable for citizenship in the other state, and capable of holding both passports simultaneously.

Oh, I forgot to mention that blacks were like 80% of the population in Apartheid South Africa and whites were like 10-15%. So, unlike the US reservation system, where Amerindians control a small portion of US territory but also make up a small part of its population, you had a situation where the majority of the population was to be crammed into 13% of the land.

Even if Israel adopted a multi-national democratic one state solution and the right-of-return tomorrow, I strongly suspect that the Jews would still rule a democratic Israel via a plurality, if not a majority.

As it is, the Israelis are expanding illegal settlements and the Israeli far-right will not allow the intelligent bourgeois of the country to pull the trigger on a two-state solution cuz

Nah. Black Communists (in coalition with white comrades) struggling against apartheid in South Africa and the former Rhodesia is what dismantled the rule of white settler neo-colonialism. Unfortunately, their leadership gave up on socialism and embraced capitalism, and if the Palestinian national-bourgeoisie (the Palestinian communists don't stand a chance taking on the Israeli state alone) won out against the Israelis, they'd undoubtedly embrace capitalism as well. Their only hope is a coalition between Palestinian and Israeli comrades against the conservative wing of Zionism. Many Israelis would refuse to give up on Zionism, so a left-wing Zionism, one that is not antagonistic to the Palestinians, would have to be revived.

Not an argument. If Israel did as I described, ended its occupations and ended its apartheid, what would be your problem with its continued existence?

It's a settler state founded by settlers. It shouldn't be alowed to exist in a just society.

Probably true, but this seems more like an issue that could only be solved by socialism. Israeli Arabs existing in a similar fashion to black Americans is probably the best you could get out of any solution that maintains bourgeois democracy.

Well I think we are all in agreement that the peace process would go much smoother if all these fascists were shot.

M8 the original settlers that founded Israel are mostly dead, are you going to hold their children responsible for things their parents did? What happened in 1948 is not their fault, and as far as I’m concerned them being born there entitles them to stay.

The only logical conclusion of this whole “muh settlers” nonsense is inevitably ethnic cleansing, and if that’s what you are advocating then I’ll point you to >>>Zig Forums.

Settlerism still exists. The children and grandchildren of the original settlers keep the system going.

The presence of the settlers is only a problem if it’s oppressive. If settlers and Palestinians are able to peacefully coexist then there’s nothing wrong with it. You might as well advocat purging brown people from Europe while you’re at it because they’re “settlers”.

Indeed, but they tend to be dependent on the capital and trade of smaller countries. There was a time when some liberal Israelis were pushing the meme that Gaza could be the Singapore of the Middle East instead of what it is. Ironically, Singapore used Israel as a developmental/ideological model.

Ah, that's a pretty good idea. Unfortunately, I think this really verges on the one state solution (not that that's bad) and I would think the whole point of the Israelis conceding to a two state solution would be to keep the Palestinians out. They do have direct colonial control over Area C in the West Bank but I imagine there is part of their leadership that thinks this is a headache to maintain and quite an embarrassment since Area C is the worst part of the West Bank.

Trump has created a major impediment to this process by recognizing an undivided Jerusalem (Jerusalem is divided by international law) as the capital of Israel.

Go back to /r/FullSakaism

ITT: white people LARP as Palestinians.

Right lads, time to destory ALL STATES IN THE AMERICAS.

Having concern for the israel-palestine conflict, on either side, is silly.
It's equivalent to being concerned over the territorial disputes of animals in the woods.
If two dogs bark at each other over a pole they both pissed on, I'd probably ignore it unless it got loud enough to be annoying, in which case I'd just start swatting at them with a stick until they left or shut up.

You forgot to turn off your nazi flag before telling us what a "real" socialist believes.

umkay
OH WOW THIS IS NOW MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT TO A COMMUNIST

shit thread, pro-israel posters should get banned

It should be a one state socialist Palestine with Jewish citizens offered the option to stay in the newly secular state or immigrate to USA / France

reported

send her to Germany

mama Merkel will pay

it really is because Israel will always be stronger than Palestine, staring with water & infostructure and ending with foreign help from the US. Even Chapo has acknowledged that, you know, the vanguard of the radical left

Israel has no right to exist, the people who live there are a bunch of LARPers. Israel is a european colony in the middle east.
Look at Bibi ffs…wht is semitic about him? His parents were polish! The people who live in Irsael must return to their european countries of origin.

And this isn't just me saying, it's even other jews who acuse of Israel of appropriating jewish symbolism to build a fake jewish state.

So basically what OP is saying is that if you don't want all Jews who live in Israel dead then you're not a leftist?

Literally all just American interference, which might not happen again if the US Congress isn't full of "progressive" Zionists like this. The US was going to secretly resupply the IDF with large caches of weapons and munitions in El Al passenger aircraft, but they weren't able to carry much war material, then Nixon tried hiring commercial cargo planes but none were willing to do the job, so finally he had the US air force use its own transport planes to send Israel weapons. The Arab states didn't like this, and so began the 1973 oil embargo. Look up Operation Nickel Grass.

it wouldn't be Israel anymore for that to happen.

...

The Arabs were also being armed by the USSR, and were far better equipped than Hamas or even Hezbollah. So basically you have a situation where Israel has all the same advantages, and the Arabs would be fighting with maybe a tenth of the strength they had in 1973, probably way less since we aren’t talking actual nation states here.

Not as we know it, but it would still be a two state solution.

That's paradoxical, Israel will literally never do that unless it stops being Israel.

That's how it sounded from his other posts in the thread tbh

Two state solution is a stalemate where Israel continues its existence as a colonial aggressor and fascist apartheid state, but beats a retreat from Gaza and West Bank. That's all it is and ever could be. The settlements and blockades would gradually renew as long as it continued to exist.

I think you should stop using such charged phrases or I'm going to start calling you all antisemitic.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

Also, when you talk about the two state solution, you act like this is only a negotiation between Palestinians and Israel. The truth is that Israel is one giant military base for the USA, and serves as a launchpad for aggression while dividing up the MENA region. Israel must be destroyed for the sake of the entire Middle East.

Jews are part of the Middle East. And there is even more infighting between muslims than what's happening in Israel.(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

Even if the PRC doesn't believe in anything anymore, at the very least I think they'd be willing to more than make up for lost Soviet armaments if the confrontation with the US intensifies.

That is actually what communists want though. US borders would certainly be broken up and the old states abolished.

Isn't the two-state solution literally what all the palestine activists are suggesting? How is this in any way controversial?

There is nothing wrong with Jews remaining in the Middle East so long as they do so on conditions of legal and social equality with their neighbors and stop being the running dogs of imperialism.

Who are "palestine activists?" You will absolutely not hear anyone in PFLP, Hezbollah, Al Quds, etc. say they support Israel's right to exist.

Yikes, did little miss piggy get triggered again?

As in, Palestine activists in America. I've certainly heard a few who were pretty credible, from Palestine, and who definitely aren't pro-imperialism. Not a burger nor well versed in the Palestine conflict, but from all I've heard the two-state solution is pretty standard in the American left, and not generally something you see members of the american establishment advocate (who would rather see Israel stay dominant). Are you really acting outraged that a socdem is saying socdem stuff and not "death to America"? The two-state solution might be naive and unlikely to work, for many of the reasons described in this thread, but that alone doesn't make it imperialist.

Most of these people are idiots sadly. Just ask them what they think of Assad.

Oh no! Did you start yet?

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LOOK AT THIS FUCKING ANTI-SEMITE, WOULD YOU FUCKING LOOK AT THIS ANTI-SEMITE! AND HE HAS THE FUCKING AUDACITY TO WRITE THIS FUCKING ANTI-SEMITIC SHIT IN THE FUCKING JEWISH JOURNAL!?!‽?!!‽ HOW DARE HE! THE NERVE! ANTI-SEMITE! THERE! I DID IT! I CALLED HIM AN ANTI-SEMITE!

jewishjournal.com/opinion/235735/letter-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-ocasio-cortez-come-with-me-to-israel/

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I almost wish you weren't banned so I could ridicule you some more.

Meet America’s Top 20 “Zionaires”: Billionaires Who Support Israel

breakingisraelnews.com/52318/exclusive-americas-top-20-richest-pro-israel-zionaires-technology-and-business/

I know they can't respond on account of their ban, but could someone else tell me, is the Z one of those things where only Jews can call themselves and each other that word, but if goys say it, it's racist?

*the Z-word

...

AROUND THE ROSE??????????
MORE LIKE AROUND THE NOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

A preemptive nuclear strike.

Since when has "socialism" stopped being a movement, and instead started being a label of ideological purity?
Yes. She's spooked on Israel. And I get why it's important to call her out on it. But I don't see why leftists would consider this a deal breaker considering the alternatives. (All of which are even more rabid zionists, and corporate sellouts)
I don't even know of any mainstream American "leftist" that criticizes the two-state solution as another Zionist ploy. One that - if implemented - leaves an "independent" Palestine as an impoverished unviable rump-state, and source of cheap labor for Israeli capitalists. I.e. Apartheid Bantustans 2.0 See >>2585438

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Hezbollah does not support Israel's "right to exist," kys shill.

She's a Zionist who complements William Buckley and makes absolutely no concrete promises to voters, she's plainly a Str*sserite piece of scum.

Literally there's nothing wrong with jews simply migrating to Palestine, if they simply respect the right of Arab territories. In fact the real reason to hate Israel is due to imperialism done aganist Arab and other middle eastern nations.

The whole language of emphasizing Israel's "right to exist" ignores the fact that Israel, as a state, is inherently a colonial-settler state.

But Jesus Christ, what the hell would driving the Jews to the sea accomplish? What would replacing the ruling class of Israel with Arabs achieve for the working class? What is necessary is a combined struggle of both Israelis and Palestinians, Jew and Arab alike, against international capitalism, politically represented today in the Middle East with US-Zionist imperialism and the Israel apartheid state. What is necessary isn't demanding a "one-state" or "two-state" solution, but a demand to create a Socialist Federation of the Middle East, lead by and for the working classes of these nations. As Communists, we should maintain a consistent anti-imperialism based on the position of the working class, not that of narrow bourgeois nationalism or liberalism.

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what determines whether someone is a "native" or not. the idea of one possessing a land because their ancestors inhabited it is just a ridiculous for palestinians as it is for jews. at the end of the day its about who lives on it in the PRESENT and in the present those inhabitants are jews who have lived on the land all their lives. What you're implicitly proposing is an ethnic cleansing of jews on the basis of a counter-spook.

I'll add that the equivalent to what is being proposed by the bitter "destroy israel" types here is what happened to the pied noirs in Algeria caught in the cross fire of the Algerian war between fascist provacateurs, french military and algerian militants. The ultimate solution to the Algerian question in retrospect is sort of pathetic. A million algerian muslims die, a million pied noirs, many poor, pressured to leave their homes and livelihoods some of who had family there 50-100 years. In return you have an independent state that, at first successful, falters and goes full neoliberal authoritarian and in alliance with US imperialism in a convenient "global war on terror"

It's about not being a liberal fucking shit head. Palestinians have fucking nobody, not even Demsoc give a fuck about them.

Fucking hell, mods. I goddamn hate Zionist apologists, but is this fucking necessary?

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it won't stop until there are zero posters left here.

In her defense: She complemented his style, not this views.
I'd also call campaigning on forgiving all student debt pretty concrete.

This is the same sort of ideology that underlies Zionism. The idea that some territories belong to certain groups of people, on a first-come-first-serve basis into perpetuity.
The problem is not one of "respecting" territories. It's that Israel is an imperialist apartheid state ran by rabid ethnonationalists, an enabler of US imperialism, and an instigator of civil wars in neighboring countries.

Also this