Why are Americans liberals so mad at Russia...

Why are Americans liberals so mad at Russia ? The amount of warmongering and people asking for blood on social medias is astonishing even Russia meddling with the election doesn't justify all of it.

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thedailybeast.com/exclusive-lone-dnc-hacker-guccifer-20-slipped-up-and-revealed-he-was-a-russian-intelligence-officer
gizmodo.com/guccifer-2-0-and-dcleaks-booted-from-twitter-following-1827613277
8ch.net/pol/res/11868890.html
8ch.net/pol/res/11868074.html
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Russia is a threat to American hegemony so of fucking course the liberals are mad at it. Officially there's being mean to gays, assassinating oligarchs and supporting muh ebil Assad.

They accept everything the media and DNC tell them as truth.

They're still in denial over the 2016 election. "Russia ate my homework" is a reassuring lie that's been reinforced by the media nonstop for two years.

the margins of the 2016 election were tight enough that these hacks and subsequent disclosures affected the outcome

If you are the sort of person that gets buttblasted about racially motivated infrastructure projects on America's southern border, Russia is a logical actor to blame.

lmao, oh sweetie…

these

lmao get a load of this shit

Lol when?

Oligarchs seem to have it made there.

Affected it less than "winner take all" state electoral methods, though - nobody seems to talk much about how they could just split electoral votes by what percentage of the state voted for what candidates and suddenly this would be impossible. What's funny is the DNC (like the GOP) benefits from not having to compete with third parties in this way, since no matter how many votes a smaller party gets they'll never even show up on a map. The rage getting redirected away from this likely leads to exaggerated emotional response to Russia's alleged actions - what they allegedly did is serious primarily because it indicates the sitting president as a traitor. If you turn that into "Russia is the one thing sabotaging our democracy!" it outsources some of the administration's guilt as well as the guilt of the corrupt SCOTUS and others for effectively legalizing bribery.

ummmm…. what would be the point of the electoral college then? If you're re-arranging the system to give electoral votes in proportion to the popular vote, just cut out the middle man and use the popular vote…

I am not claiming the leaks were a bad thing, only that they certainly effected the outcome.
That is my answer to OP's question.

True, but that is by design. The US federal government derives it's sovereignty from the consent of the states. When the constitution was written, the federal government wasn't envisioned to be such a dominant institution. This arrangement made sense in 1789.

Constitutional electoral reform in the US is impossible practically speaking, but if I were to change something, I would modify the house of representatives districts to be statewide instead of geographic, and elected on the basis of party-list proportional representation. This would allow third-parties to incubate and grow in the lower chamber of congress.

they think them being stuck with donald trump is russia's fault, and not their own for nominating a candidate that they knew most voters did not like or want to be president. or their own for not getting rid of a stupid undemocratic thing like the electoral college already.

Just fair warning.

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oh my god, you're so right. it's like 9/11 all over again.

lel, if anything this blows holes in the Democrat line that the Republicans are compromised by Russia.

There is literally no evidence for those claims.

Just going to grab myself a Caffe Mocha with a touch of peppermint, and as I was looking at the cover of New York Times and WSJ with their very convicted stance against the evil Putin represents the barista asked "Can we get him for treason yet?" My pastor friend is very concerned that Russia is behind all the partisan vitriol as well… He's a Republican who voted for Mitch McConnell. Someone's winning the information warfare game in America, and it ain't your narrative. How long do you think people will hold a grudge at Mr. Womp Womp "if it triggers than it's absolutely the best governing policy?" Has anyone forgiven Obama or Bush yet (even though they were much less offensive with optics)? I've talked to people who straight up want to bomb Russia. You know why? They think the people raiding the comments sections with inflammatory statements are Russians. Whose raiding those comments sections? Maybe Russia, but maybe us, maybe someone else. Either way.. This is a whole lot bigger than liberals versus Russia. I guarantee that Republicans are whispering to Generals and IC.. Just as much as Democrats. You still think it's a campaigning issue for football team one versus football team two (because to some degree it is). It's a lot more than that though, and as time will reveal this is a scapegoat for the ruling class, a unifying cause for the petit bourgeois, a pariah for middle America, a rallying cause for the agraria. This is the reason for America's diviseness. Not hyperpartisanship, not the media, not competing property owners, not culture wars inflicted by self interested parties.. Russia. But hey, when the spell of Trumpism will never wear off or someone is willing to bribe Republicans endlessly to take the heat from liberals and their very own constituents. Maybe Hannity can sell it, and no competing Republican hegemony emerges to challenge Trumpism. Maybe.

a federal judge thought otherwise and approved a bunch of indictments of russian nationals
I defer to their opinion.

The line is that Trump is compromised by the Russians, and all pro-Trump Republicans are cowards or cynics that don't care what he does with Russia as long as his domestic policy suits their interests

Ooh wow, a federal judge, I sure trust his opinion on computer hacking. Bet he even knows how to click on the email icon on his desktop!

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Incorrect. The line is that Russians caused diviseness between Democrats, Republicans and 3rd parties so they would destroy themselves from the inside. What you witnessed today is the beginning of a great show.

Hello fellow ☭TANKIE☭s? Whatcha say with a red-brown alliance and we beat the liberals for one?

They'll tell you because they "care so much about the sanctity of our democracy", when that couldn't be further from the truth. If they really cared about that they'd be bitching about hundred of other reasons why American democracy is an absolute sham, but they never do. No, Russia's just the latest scapegoat to distract the proles with because Trump ripped the mask off a little too far for their liking this time.

>>>Zig Forums

But user, Zig Forums is liberals.

You made a liberal tier post, so you belong there

this is true
The hacks of 2015-6 weren't a national crisis until everyone realized they had caused Clinton to lose.
People only care about these crises to the extent that they can leverage their outrage to achieve partisan outcomes.

But that's not a liberal tier post.

No? Saying that muh russian hack is a meme is red brown alliance?

Huh what?

The russian hack is not real, user.

I hate this country so much.
Just nuke my shit up already, fam.

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the metadata of Guccifer 2.0's emails apparently indicated he was using a Russian VPN
also apparently he connected to twitter one time without a VPN, and was able to be identified

thedailybeast.com/exclusive-lone-dnc-hacker-guccifer-20-slipped-up-and-revealed-he-was-a-russian-intelligence-officer

So who's him?

Ah holy shit, I thought you were ironic. No you are actually a brown shirt. Sorry

Irrelevant

apparently someone from a 'cyberwarfare' unit in the GRU

It was very relevant to which I was responding to

He has a twitter account but cannot be identified?

Sound like bull.

GRU uses commercial VPNs? And they brag about their hacking activities in blogs and on Twitter for no good reason? I'm sure the anonymous sources at the CIA mouthpiece have our best interests at heart.

Wikileaks claimed to have emails related to the Clinton campaign on June 12th 2016. Crowdstrike reported on the 14th that they found Russian malware on the DNC servers (merely a claim because no one but Crowdstrike has examined the servers), and Guccifer took credit for the hack the next day. Why would a Russian intelligence officer reveal himself immediately after the hack took place? Why would Wikileaks claim to have the emails before the alleged hack even took place, if they even got the emails from Guccifer? More likely this was a cover up intended to get out in front of the whole scandal and make the DNC look like the victim of espionage.

Yeah, Guccifer 2.0 had a twitter account. Apparently whoever was running the persona connected to it one time without a proxy and they were able to grab his IP.

gizmodo.com/guccifer-2-0-and-dcleaks-booted-from-twitter-following-1827613277

yes, commercial Russian VPNs apparently.

By stepping forward and claiming to be a non-state actor, they get to obscure Russian responsibility.

I think you have the timeline wrong. Guccifer 2.0 claimed to have infiltrated the DNC months before he was found out by Crowdstrike.

Possibly, less likely imo.
In interviews with the media, Guccifer 2.0 claimed to be Romanian like the original Guccifer, but apparently their Romanian looked like it was from google translate. The Russian metadata on his emails is also a smoking gun.

In the last few days even Putin is acknowledging that the attack could have come from Russia, but he is claiming it was some patriotic lone wolf and not the state intelligence apparatus.

Because they're "patriotic" petite bourgeois nationalists that relish in conspiracy theories.

Then why the fuck would they use commercial Russian VPNs?

We're expected to believe that one of the world's most elite intelligence units would use a commercial VPN from their own country while simultaneously attempting to pass off the act as committed by a non-state actor from a third party country?

the made-up hacks didn't cause Clinton to lose, she did.

A non state actor that gives himself away with a series of unforced errors that leads to the conclusion the investigators have already arrived at, very convenient. Anonymous sources from the CIA can't be trusted.

Claims with no evidence. The only people who would have evidence are Wikileaks who are conspicuously absent from the whole investigation. The emails were likely leaked by a disgruntled staffer at the DNC.

GRU couldn't find a someone who spoke Romanian and had to use google translate instead? What a bunch of amateurs.

see my other posts
Of course, her being a horrendous candidate was certainly an important factor. But arguably any factor which, if absent, would alter the outcome of the election, can be said to be responsible for the outcome.

I'm not citing the CIA, I'm citing journalists.

Apparently the professionalism of the guccifer persona increased substantially after the Vice interview, as if it had been transferred to other personnel.

and it looks like I'm banned, so I guess this conversation is over. I'll look into it some more, you raised some good points.

This entire scandal is a mindfuck. I see too many coincidences and convenient developments with huge gaps in evidence. Maybe it all makes sense but I just assume we're being lied to and work from there. However, none of the facts really matter because the scandal isn't based on facts but how the scandal itself can be useful to partisan operatives, shadowy deep state people, the media or whoever. That's why the Russiagate includes everyone from Facebook to Wikileaks, GRU, Jill Stein, the Ukranian military, there is no end to it and there isn't supposed to be. Instead, like the Mueller investigation itself, it just goes on and on with no objectives or stakes, heedless of the danger in provoking conflict between Russia and the US, or the damage it's doing to public discourse which has completely detached from reality.

Faggot mods ruined a perfectly good thread.

I'm far more upset that they nuked my discussion about compatibilism and free will in the Sam Harris thread.
I would post about it in mod feedback, but I think I am already overstaying my welcome.
cheers and good talk

Because it's only good when WE meddle in their elections

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hoo boy these people really are in an alternate reality
it's so easy now to see them turning fascist when things get bad
2016 really fucked them in the head

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...

Three words: Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Neocons are mad that Trump is destroying their careful balance of powers through isolationism, while Neoliberals are mad that Trump is destroying their markets through a trade war. Claiming he is a traitor, and claiming all dissenters are traitors, is easier than having to debate him and justify their points.

That's the strongest Russiagate theory available, but it is not the one the mainstream media uses. Right now the most popular narrative is that all Republicans are either willing collaborators with Russia, sympathizers to Russian infiltration or willfully blind towards it.

Look at how neolib journalists are trying to make a big deal over an NRA member being arrested over not registering as a foregin agent (a technicality, especially when Russia wants to compete for PD contracts like Germany, France and Israel do). Their growing narrative is that the NRA is a Russian-backed organization who want to kill Americans through school shootings and gang violence. This creates a situation where any NRA member cannot by definition join any mainstream leftist group because they will be seen as a traitor. This is just the start. Watch, the next time a major leak happens and the ACLU tries defending the whistleblower they will be cast as Russian agents too and discredited. Same for things like the SPLC, should they ever defend a Palestinian student's right to criticize Israel they too will be dragged through the mud.

The idea is that by believing all of this, or at least forcing it, the neoliberals can destroy the right. Instead they will only facilitate their own demise as the right gets new laws to destroy criticism with.

Anyone with $20 can be an NRA member, and it makes sense for Russia who exports sporting arms to America but cannot compete for government contracts the way Glock/H&K (Germany), FN (France) and IWI (Israel) can. It is completely normal and expected in a world where free trade and global markets exist.

A better connection is between Tillerson and Russia's gas industry, since he had to deal with Putin directly as Exxon's CEO.

all of reddit is full of posts about Russia it's fucking cancerous. I just don't get it. How was Russia involved in the election? Is the fact that the Russian state pays some dudes to make somewhat propagandistic comments on social media the only thing they can show up? Hell, everybody does that, including the US and Israel.
To me it just looks like they've run out of things that can discredit Trump. Stuff like "he's dumb" and "he's incapable" is jsut redundant because he exposes himself as those much better than liberals do.

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Their whole worldview seriously challenged in 2016 when a centrist technocrat running a data-driven, focus group tested campaign was beaten by a fat, hedonistic, racist loudmouth gameshow host. It was either admit that their whole approach to politics is wrong or blame it outside circumstances. At first they ran with the idea that Trump was some kind political chessmaster playing the media and political establishment like a fiddle, but when it became to apparent that he’s a fucking moron who basically stumbled dick-first into the presidency, literally winning by accident, a publicity stunt gone horribly wrong, they needed to double down on the idea that this is all due to foreign meddling. So now it’s Russian masterminds who are behind Democratic politics not working.

This is all a part of Putin's master plan to bring about World Communism.

He's just pointing out the flaws in a liberal democracy.

Your first mistake was going on leddit

I think this is a perfect summary of the reason libs are so obsessed with Russia right now. But just to be an Intellectually Honest & Rational Interlocutor (tm), does anyone here know exactly what the central claim about Russia-Trump is, and what the strongest evidence for it is? They've been going on about it for so long that I've started to completely ignore it and assume it's always just dogshit, but this is my half assed summary of the different claims being made:

1) There is the claim that "Russia hacked the election", which implies they hacked into machines and changed votes or something. I highly doubt there's any evidence of this what so ever.

2) That some russians bought some facebook ads that were pro-Trump. I don't care about evidence for or against this because it's inconsequential bullshit and I just don't fucking care about it. Let's assume it's true. If this is the extent to which they "meddled in the election", it's still a complete joke compared to what the americans and the CIA does when it's time for them to meddle in the election of another nation.

3) That Trump has done some shady corrupt business shit with russian oligarchs over the years, and that this could mean he has a conflict of interest, owing some russian oligarchs money, or something. There's probably plenty of evidence for this, but it might be hard to link directly to Putin or the Russian government, or prove that they did anything significant to help him win. Also, similar claims could be made about the Clinton foundation and Saudi Arabia, so…

4) That russians hacked the DNC and gave all those emails to wikileaks, which helped Trump win. I don't know if this has been proven, but either way I don't care. It was a good thing that those emails were released.

Another thing is that this could have been used as a foundation for new campaign finance laws (which is how all these people operate) yet that's completely lost by completely making this about us vs them instead of it being a domestic issue.

With what, some facebook memes? I'm pretty sure 8 years of Obama balkanized America way more than any meme campaign.

Both are pretty dumb, because you're still just playing six degrees of Kevin Bacon, but substituting in Putin.

wew

Why are we talking about trump winning through memes and propaganda here on 8ch, and no one has mentioned 8/pol 4/pol and r/the_donald? Of course foreigners were meddling in the election, all the magatards from those three boards.They're probably planning some whole new psy-op or false flag in broad daylight at this very moment on >>>pol . Jesus christ, of course its them spamming the ccomments on WaPo and everywhere else. Just go check out the flags on 4/pol to find out how many Russians are involved. They're far from the most common flag.

To distract away from the gerrymandering and faulty system of the electoral college. For Republicans to distract from voter suppression they did. For Democrats to distact from the DNC corrupt bias for Hillary against Bernie as well as evidence of illegal tampering of votes during the primaries. Russia certainly has issues in tyrannical leadership though and it did indeed use propoganda to effect elections and try but fail to hack some voting machines.

There isn't one. Not a concrete one anyway. They vaguely assert that Trump swung the election but how he did that is not specified because they haven't thought that far ahead. You have to understand these people think in terms of vague ideas and platitudes. These are people who think Trump saying Putin is correct and the FBI are not is literally treason. They don't know what words mean in a technical or concrete sense. Words are just signifiers of which side you're on. Communication is just virtue signaling. There's no actual ideology underneath this. It's functionally just a language game, exchanging words and actions in a specified pattern that they're used to. If I had the time/inclination I would make the argument that these people are not conscious, instead operating according to simple heuristics they've been trained to. Their world is breaking down and they're desperately scrambling to keep the game running.

If it was only Zig Forums and no Russia. They would have used IP addresses for Israel or Egypt or something. No reason to lead everyone back to Russia.

Yes, the President is totally a Russian puppet, what with having bombed their biggest client state Syria, parked warships in the Black Sea, approved tough sanctions, condemned the plans for a Russian/German pipeline and made an arms deal with the Ukrainian government.

Not that I disagree with your conclusions but I don't think socialists should be too worried about NRA members not joining us, the NRA is a reactionary organization which conveniently lobbied for more gun control in California when the Black Panthers were open carrying.

The electoral vote wasn't consistently winner-take-all until some time in the 1800s. In 1800, Jefferson said this: "All agree that an election by districts would be best, if it could be general; but while 10 states choose either by their legislatures or by a general ticket, it is folly & worse than folly for the other 6 not to do it."

He was butthurt about not winning in 1796, which he could have if the broader state vote was the only one that mattered at the time. My suggestion isn't just popular vote - if just one guy in a state votes for a candidate, it won't get an entire electoral vote. It falls firmly within the EC. The "winner take all thing" has nothing to do with the basic idea of the EC, it's something the Dems and Republicans fought for because their politicians were butthurt about the EC reflecting how people were actually voting.

The EC is pretty much just a vague concept for state representation, undermined by this policy. You wouldn't even have to change the constitution (abolish the EC) to fix the problem, and it's pretty easy to argue that party-appointed electors violate "no taxation without representation." But the GOP relies on the skew to win national elections while their appeal shrinks, and the DNC uses it to cut out independent candidates who would make them move left. The easy route is probably to point out the unconstitutional nature of "winner take all" rather than dirtying the most sacred and holy of texts!11 by abolishing the EC outright.

sad how accurate this is

BUT HE SAID NICE THINGS ABOUT PUTIN

lmao what? The only people saying that were political oddballs like Scott Adams of Dilbert fame.

The media consensus pre-election was "Trump is a bumbling, incompetent idiot that will (thankfully) never get elected", which after the election became "Trump is a bumbling, incompetent idiot that will start WW3 and/or collapse the global trading system".

yeah and now it's "Trump is a bumbling, incompetent idiot that won't start WW3"
god I hate liberals

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I'm talking about the source of the facebook, twitter memes, and comment section spam. It's definitely Pol behind it.

Go look for yourself:
8ch.net/pol/res/11868890.html
8ch.net/pol/res/11868074.html
8ch.net/pol/res/11871916.html
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They must be slowing down frankly because everytime I would check in on them before they'd have all their hashtag twitter campaigns pinned at the top.

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And whatever other forums they hang out at. Voat? I'm not that much of an expert on the 'alt-right' or whatever they call themselves now.

yep that's Zig Forums alright

fuck off to reddit

Burned! What's this supposed to mean even? Care to elaborate?

You'll occasionally see them on voat, but they're also all over leddit.

chill the fuck out retard, he just asked a question

If you’ll remember, they totally ran with the idea that Trump was this media chessmaster right up until the publication of Fire and Fury. How many times did the media claim that Trump saying something dumb was just some calculated, nefarious distraction from what he was REALLY up to? They played him as an idiot in terms of actual governance, maybe, but they totally ran with him being some master of manipulation until it was proven categorically false.

The destruction of America can't come soon enough

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I want liberal comedians to stop thinking The Daily Show during the Bush years gives them license to spout basic bitch opinions.

No, it was at best a "grudging respect" for his "low cunning" that managed to get one over them. Fire and Fury just confirmed what journalists, pundits etc already believed, i.e. the Trump administration was a dumpster fire of incompetence and infighting.

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what the fuck i wanna make america great again now

What did Liberals mean by this
I don't consider myself white

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They make fun of Pravda, but refuse to realize that what they're being fed is much worse than what Pravda was feeding to the people.

It's like that joke that the difference between USSR and USA is that USSR citizens knew that Pravda writing was idiotic propaganda, but USA citizens actually believe what their capitalist media tells them.

Of course they were/are. Since Wilson.

Liberals are combating feels with feels. Slavs are generally considered non-white by Nazi's (General plan Ost). Liberals like to pander to subjugated groups with their own set of idpol. They tend to also say that Italians are white because they were considered non*white by the US government just a little over a century ago.