So, is this what Socialism with Chinese characteristics looks like?
bloomberg.com
So, is this what Socialism with Chinese characteristics looks like?
Anthony Stewart
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Daniel Jackson
This is what happens when the state controls finance and not the other way around.
Michael Nelson
China is, at best, very well managed capitalism. But that is all it is at the moment.
Connor Young
Call China socialist or capitalist or whatever you like, but don't let your terminology distract you from the reality on the ground there. It is a country similar to the liberal West in a number of disturbing ways, and even worse sometimes in fact. But there are key differences.
As distorted as the party line may be, China is still a country where calling yourself a communist or a Marxist is entirely socially acceptable and won't get you outed as a pinko traitor who should be in prison. This is a noteworthy luxury that most communists organizing in bourgeois countries never had.
China right now under that vile Xi is moving in a further prostatist and antisocialist direction hellbent on banning all fun and squeezing all the profit possible out of working people. But not everyone in China thinks this way. Some still bitterly resent the destruction of the working-class's economic security under Deng. For sure, this resentment will only grow more in the future but God knows if it will go anywhere or even in a proper pro-socialist direction at all.
Kayden Phillips
Christian Walker
This is hardly a valuable luxury, since the CPC dictates what "communism" means in China. If you disagree with their definition, they are liable to get very upset.
What did they expect? China isn't a special case–its modern history is simply a demonstration of early capitalism.
Connor Phillips
It's
Easton Morgan
All capitalist countries can make this same claim at some point in history, for example America's economic engine from 1900-1929 and 1941-1971. The same holds true for every asian tiger economy, such as Japan from 1965-1991. This is not a unique phenomenon, it is a stage all capitalist societies go through. However, all capitalist societies then see the rate of profit decline and social unrest as wages are slashed and services cut in a vain attempt to keep profits high. The result is economic depression, and no recovery until whoever holds capital somehow parts with it (usually through bankruptcy) and supplies liquid assets to the market without increasing the total amount of assets.
China's case is unremarkable in this regard. They had their growth stage from about 1995-present, around the time Clinton decided to walk back tariffs imposed for the Tienanmen Square Massacre. They followed lockstep the path of every other asian tiger economy, down to the government relaxing loan requirements in 2008 to power the economy through a global recession. The result of this is a lot of debt which will become unpayable as the rate of profit (growth) slows and the huge gains imagined when the loans were issued do not materialize. The economy then collapses as people stop buying and prices fall.
Pics related, China's private debt to GDP ratio is now over 220% of GDP, comparable to that of America immediately before the 2007 mortgage meltdown and before Japan's 1991 crash. This is not sustainable and it will all come down, especially as Trump starts his trade war. Hence why China's government ordered state media outlets to stop promoting their Made In China 2025 plan after the US Commerce Dept went after ZTE.
Luis Ross
fugg :DD I capitalized socialism for some reason :DDDD
Ethan Taylor
There is overwhelming evidence that China's economy and state apparatus is fundamentally different from any known capitalist model of development.
Most socialists just refuse to believe it because they think in rigid, formalistic terms; if commodity production or private property exist in any form, then the country is "state capitalist". Of course, any Marxist worth anything knows that the world isn't that simple and you can have a fundamentally anticapitalist state sector that utilizes capitalist production to maintain its own power, growth, and stability.
Nathaniel Lopez
China is the last sovereign country in the world. Authoritarian but willing - unlike U.N.-governed countries - to give its people the freedom to do what they want.
Listen to me. This is real freedom, freedom to own property, make a profit, make your life. The West, so afraid of strong government, now has no government. Only financial power.
Angel Jenkins
I don't even know where to start with this fucking post.
Chase Clark
Sauce: youtu.be
Adrian Gonzalez
Deus Ex really doesn't have much in the way of profound social commentary but it was kind of nice seeing a pro-US bootlicker forced to question the fictional narrative of freedom.
Landon Nelson
China has the highest level of cronyism in the world. Look up a crony index. They also underpay the workers. China is more like Capitalism with some Socialist characteristics rather than socialism with Chinese characteristics
Jonathan Murphy
As long as they help raze America to the fucking ground they are OK in my book.
Aiden Foster
You don't know what a recession is. All recession means is two consecutive quarters of decline in GDP. The United States had several during each of these periods.
Owen Miller
Yes I'm glad events that contribute to greater human suffering in nations where recessions occur is "normal" and "healthy" to the point that whoever came up with the idea got a fucking nobel prize.
Camden Campbell
The Nobel Prize in economics is literally Fake News. Do not trust anyone who has one.
alternet.org
Carter Davis
ok ill go check out the "crony index" no doubt funded by some US thinktank
Chinese wages have risen by 8-12% yearly
Camden Kelly
While that's good its only really possible due to a combination of rapid growth and a low starting point for wages. So, yeah, of course you can give a 10% raise every year when your starting point is .25 cents an hour.
Their getting pretty close to the poorest parts of the developed world in terms of wages now. I will be very curious to see if China can keep raising wages to or past Japanese/American levels.
Sebastian Sanchez
t. americ*n
Jaxon Jones
well managed for the elites, still horrible for the working class
Kayden Lee
hi again :DD
Jordan Sullivan
I thought it was already common knowledge :DDDD
Colton James
Why would you even want to claim a country with such shitty work conditions? Anyone that isn't a mentally handicapped ☭TANKIE☭ Maoist knows China isn't socialist.
Caleb Bennett
Also you do realize almost everything in the US is made in China, right?
Matthew Collins
The worst work conditions are in SEZ, conditions in China have been steadily improving. As well, the trade unions are very powerful and have cooperation from the state. Chinese workers go on strike all the time, and they are usually satisfied with the results. They even get away with murdering their bosses at times.
Not true, China is often only the final point of assembly. Many things "made in China" actually have parts made in ROK, Japan, and elsewhere.
Henry Scott
Isn't their home ownership rate like 90%? And for millennials it's like 70% or something insane compared to the absolutely dismal 30% for Americans. Their state-managed capitalism is better than ours and that's the saddest fucking thing in the world.
Samuel Carter
The Chinese are going to take over the goddamned planet.
Anecdotally I know a dude (via the internet) who lives there and is a Marxist. He probably posts here (hey buddy). Anyways he'd go to the Beijing equivalent of a Barnes and Noble and where you'd normally find Christian novels in the U.S. they have a big section full of the collected works of Joseph Stalin and stuff like that. Pretty wild.
Too bad I don't speak Chinese or I might move there.
Liam Brown
China is better for the world's people than the US or any other rotten western country. The ONLY people who benefit from US hegemony are western middle class cunts.
Grayson Morris
And western bourgeois ofc, forgot to mention.
Gabriel Myers
Yeah I've read that all the bookstores in China have a huge Marxism section. Same in Vietnam too.
Gabriel Gomez
I don't know enough about Africa to comment really but there's probably a reason these African countries prefer to make deals with China (even if it's still a fundamentally exploitative / extractive relationship) as opposed to making deals with the used car salesmen who run the United States who will just screw them.
At least with China you'll get some paved roads and highways out of the deal. And maybe some help with setting up an oil refinery, etc.
Juan King
China would have had one too between 2001-2003 and 2007-2009 if it wasn't for their government deregulating financial markets and loosening credit requirements in both periods. This is an ability few countries have since few countries wanted to undertake the transition from a socialist economy to an open market capitalist economy. And China's economy would have popped in 2015 had Beijing not engaged in blatant market manipulation, the likes of which can only be compared to crypto exchanges who manipulate their markets to avoid collapse too.
Again, all of this is not sustainable because it is capitalism. China's government MUST have a recession at some point, as recessions are an inherent and intrinsic part of capitalism. So long as markets exist recessions will exist, this basic fact cannot be avoided and China's attempts to avoid reality using debt will only make the coming recession worse as the mountain of unpaid liabilities gets bigger and bigger.
Nolan Gomez
So capitalism is ok when local bourgeoisie get some subsidized industry? What you are describing is literally colonialism ffs, pic extremely related.
Landon Diaz
Not anymoreso than the Japanese. But the only people who remember that are at in their 50s now.
Noah Kelly
Nathaniel Kelly
Keep Hope Alive by The Crystal Method: youtube.com
John Wood
How fucked are we all if China proceeds to ignore reality until it hits?
Leo Thompson
I doubt it is well manahlged, Every year there are large amounts of protests and social unrests exploding in China.
Zizke has an article on LBR (before he was shadow banned by the lib cucks there) on China. China is essentially creating a capitalism without cap bourgeoisie lass (since the old commie elites are the bourgeoisie class). This system is not stable.
Jaxson Gutierrez
This
China is not a stable and well-managed system, every year there are large amounts of protests and social unrests explode in China.
Zizek has a good article on LBR (before he was shadow banned by the lib cucks there) on China: it is a system without capitalist bourgeoise class (old commie elites still runs the country), which creates forever unrest.
So China's kind of in a political dead-lock. No one dares to say the fact that, Mao's legacy was actually betrayed, and Caps bourgeoise know that, for their best class interest, they better NOT form as a political class. pretty much similar to Brits bourgeoises' historical attitude towards constitutional monarchy.
What is really dangerous, however, is that with the US aggression, China might turns full imperialism.
Ayden Russell
Chinese "imperialism" will be forgiven if the US is destroyed in the end. The real danger is that the bourg chinese might overthrow the party and promote unironic imperialism over the world once America is out the picture.
Isaac Hall
You are either retarded or some subversive imperialist shill.
Carter Roberts
Can someone post that image compilation of all those bourg articles about china's economy imminent collapse. They've been pumping them out for like 30 years and none of their predictions have come true. Just like the morons ITT who still despair over china overtaking the US.
China's econonmy is growing and will KEEP growing, but any day now their economy is going to pop! Next year! Next decade! I can't be held to account for my predictions because it's I can always add another year! Until I'm dead!
Luis Rogers
I get the impression that so many westerners ramble on and on about china's inevitable collapse (incidentally before the US) is that they want a decrease in confidence in chinese markets and lower foreign investment. Propaganda for economic sabotage.
Jaxson Wilson
These protests and strikes are common because in China, they actually get results. Militant union organization is part of the strategy of the CPC,
by getting unions to stamp out egregious business behavior they enhance the stability of the government.
Landon Cox
Based
Adam Williams
If you live in the west than not much, since capitalists expect recessions and in regards to asia views them as an opportunity to buy Chinese stock cheaply. However this can't occur if a trade war happens or if China's government keeps certain protectionist measures like requiring 51% ownership in all Chinese firms.
Most of the damage (at least initially) will be contained to China itself, where the collapse will fuck up pretty much everything in the form of a financial crisis. Banks, factories, stores etc will all just stop operating and people will just wake up to find their money is all gone. Electronic payment systems make this easy, and their rollout is very similar to the rollout of printed checks/stocks/bonds in the late nineteenth century.
Jonathan Evans
yet not against SOEs which the state owns. That's illegal and will get people thrown in jail if they so much as shittalk CPC officials who serve as the SOE's directors and investors.
Follow the money.
Eli Jones
requesting proofs for all your claims.
As well, SOEs are good-paying jobs.
Jonathan Ward
China is still a workers state
The vast majority of tue MoP in china (70%) is still controlled by the DoP and he CPC
The private economy that is allowed to exist exists only under the thumb of the party and is limited to major economic hubs
The Majority of the countryside is still managed economically under normal ML methods
As one of the resident trots pointed out "China IS a workers state a deformed workers state but a workers state non the less
Gavin Jenkins
ft.com
The company in question is China National Coal Group, which is a State Owned Enterprise which is how China's government is able to order downsizing directly in the first place.
Longmay is another SOE and the protests were called off after China's central government threatened direct intervention (re: military police)
yeah if you're a middle manager or someone who is connected who will never have their boss cut corners on payday. Same it true for any other capitalist enterprise.
Wyatt Price
Coal has no place in modern society. Also the workers will be paid and they know it.
Alexander Perez
Workers who impede the Progress of Socialism should be shot.
Nathaniel Russell
Doesn't change the fact that they worked in unacceptable conditions and suffered wage theft only to have their careers abrogated and military cops sent to harass any dissenters. This is indistinguishable from capitalism, especially when China Coal continues to pay out investors on time every time and all their cuts are done in response to falling power demand leading to lower power prices unless supply is cut. This is capitalism.
Even if we consider coal to be useless, China imported most of their recent nuclear reactors from Japan and America rather than using domestic labor. This happened because American and Japanese firms offered them a better deal, so capitalists could make more money. This is capitalism.
Colton Martinez
Looks like you're refuting your own claims:
Also here was my claim:
Which your story supports.
Joshua James
worldfinance.com
"Nonetheless, despite the rate at which executive pay has risen in China, the actual amount pales in comparison to similar-sized western firms. For example, Industrial and Commercial Bank of China Chairman Jiang Jianqing was paid $185,000 of the bank’s $38.5bn in 2012 net profits, whereas Goldman Sachs’ chairman Lloyd Blankfein was awarded over 100 times that amount, according to the Financial Times. The comparison, of which there are many like it, shows that executive pay has failed to keep pace with performance in China, though the ratio of executive to worker pay is still a cause for concern."
bjreview.com
"Since last year, 25 provinces across the country have revealed their payment reform schemes for state-owned enterprise (SOE) executives, aiming to impose certain limits on their salaries. In most areas, SOE executives' basic annual salaries are set to be no more than two times those of ordinary workers. Meanwhile, the combined sum of an executive's basic annual salary, performance-related pay, and incentive bonuses will be no more than eight times that of the salary of an ordinary SOE staff member."
Adrian Foster
They imported the tech because China is still catching up in tech. After importing the tech, they get to study and reverse-engineer it as well.
The CPC doesn't dispute capitalism exists within the primary stage of socialism.
Jayden Sanders
It doesn't because the protests all get closed when the government steps in and tells workers to accept the state of affairs. Which is what happened. This isn't labor organizing to get better wages, it's workers being crushed underneath a government boot for the sake of big business. Otherwise known as, capitalism.
$185k plus stock options and bonds. This is how capitalists all around the world skirt income taxes. This is capitalism.
Parker Long
Bullshit. China's nuclear technology is on par with at least Russia who has in some cases more advanced reactor designs than America.
And notice how capitalism always fails, violently. It is poison for anyone who decides to engage with it, as the allure of markets and capital gains outweigh social costs.
Cooper Brown
Christ Americans sure are butthurt about being left behind by history.
John James
Your doing it again See….
Benjamin Long
They've been impacted by recessions but they counteract them with keynesian policies before they become really bad.
Michael Ramirez
That's a big part of it.
Cooper Thompson
Go do some followup, prove that the workers didn't get their wages in the end.
lmao yeah American CEOs are making $185 per year. Maybe American junior programmers.
No, it simply isn't. Russia has the most advanced nuke tech on earth at this point.
The USSR was able to transition relatively smoothly out of the NEP, other than de-kulakization. China is likely to transition slowly and smoothly to socialism and then communism.
Gavin Sanchez
Discuss
Mason Richardson
Jacob Green
Except when you try to act on it. They arrest actual maoists and unionists for being "subversive to society".
Parker Peterson
Lmaoing @ your life. eia.gov
also br*Tish petroleum analysis is very similar
Nathaniel Lee
They are only concerned about organizations that threaten the CPC. Unions and Maoist orgs that don't threaten the CPC have way more freedom than they would in a capitalist state.
John Bailey
This, "left wing deviation" is one of the highest crimes
Julian Stewart
China needs a new great proletarian cultural revolution, Xi and his lackeys deserve to be lynched
Ayden Garcia
This implies china isn't a capitalist state. And only maoists and unionists that aren't subversive are allowed? By this logic, the CPUSA is a great example of a modern communist party that hasn't sold out.
Elijah Hill
correct, it's DOTP
Fighting for better wages, going on strike, killing your CEO, promoting MZT etc. don't threaten the CPC, so they're allowed. If the CPUSA actually did any of these things they'd be cracked down on.
Mason Kelly
...
Jackson Harris
GUCCI COM GANG
Blake James
hm… I wonder who could be behind this narrative
Adrian Smith
The French?
Parker Parker
Great point.
China does not do austerity, because they are (now betrayed) former commie, they know and wcared of the power of workers. They know the endgame of mass austerity is mass revolt.
Oliver Smith
you stupid retard, its well known china is a corrupt shithole, do you live under a rock?
Luis Thompson
Of course China suffers from corruption, hence the massive and successful anti-corruption campaign. "Corruption," however is a natural challenge arising from the state-lead market system, it is not evidence of the libertarians' favorite mythical distinct economic system, "crony capitalism."
Who are you to call China a shithole? Shut up, chauvinist.
Camden Hill
Said the American guy whose wage hasn't raise since the 70s and just voted Trump, the least corrupted person ever existed
Dominic Morgan
And who is telling you this "well known" information? Why do people still believe what western media pumps out?
Jason Gomez
China to complete standardizing urban, rural medical insurance by 2019
chinadaily.com.cn
Wyatt Perez
Chinese "communism" everyone
Robert Allen
Call me when then start reforming the communes they destroyed instead of just tossing out meager handouts to suppress dissent.
Lincoln Cooper
Deng privatized it, the majority of China was under healthcare before Mao died.
Henry Green
What other country is actually building its healthcare system instead of destroying it right now?
Evan Lopez
Whataboutism: the post
Samuel Morris
Mexico? maybe
Jayden Sanders
China has massive income inequality. It is not a socialist state.
Ian Brown
Imperialism is good for those who do it, who could have guessed?
David Moore
Archived for posterity.
twitter.com
Owen Gutierrez
Nope
chinaworker.info
freedomnews.org.uk
Post-Mao China is revisionist to the fucking core.
Michael Butler
Oh I'm sure that the country where every bookstore has a complete Marxism section is against young people reading Marxist texts. Really believable.
Ryder Ross
The US government denounces racism left and right. I'm guessing racism in the US has been solved.
I was pointing out that user was wrong. Marxists in China do get arrested, and they get arrested for being Marxists, and hosting, oh so terrible, reading groups for Marxist literature! And yes, it totally is believable that a country that treats its workers like shit would repress radical discontent
Joshua Miller
No, they were obviously arrested for organizing against the CPC. Whether or not you think it's justified to organize against the CPC is a separate question, but the CPC undeniably promotes being Marxist and reading Marxist texts.
Dominic Roberts
stop spreading ⛏️rotskyite and counter revolutionary propaganda. Those "reading groups" that are getting raided by the chinese police are the left opportunist MCPC wich goal is to dismantle the socialist state. This isn'T anything new the GDR had the KPD/ML wich also opted to destroy the socialist state because they also viewed is as a state capitalist country. So when the GDR cracked down on them they saw themselves as victims to the brutal capitalist regime and ⛏️rotskyists looove to spread this narrative China is spreading Marxist literature and Xi Jinping is encouraging and mandating courses in marxism for every high ranking party official, over 2000, journalists and in everyday life of the people. Stop spreading counter revolutionary propaganda.
wsj.com
nytimes.com
pri.org
Gabriel Watson
there's a strong difference between what the government allows and what a civilization's social norms are.