Why do you hate the middle class so much? Is it so wrong to just want to live in a quiet place, on the ground level...

Nice assumption
Who the fuck is trying to convince you to move to the city? What's with you illiterate commie-hating fags and your endless persecution complex?

Why? Because they have interests that deviate from yours? Are they not just as much victims of rent seeking private property owners? Your poaition here is irrational.

You're the one telling me my desires are just propaganda and what I REALLY want is (of fucking course) what you want for me. How anarchist of you.

Because there are only two classes you are either the Borg or you a worker. There is no inbetween as Comrade here explained it doesn't exist and its just a way to keep the workers divided.

If you truly cared about the workers then we wouldn't be asking such dumbass questions.

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All middle class individuals are reactionaries waiting to happen. Their entire class is a danger. It is the best interest of the working class to neutralize them as quickly as possible. I mean just look at Zig Forums and Zig Forums adjacent orgs. Almost entirely suburbanite trash.

The suburbs are a pathetic facsimile of nature and a giant economic burden that cannot be maintained in the long term.

First, we should move towards putting people in the housing that already exists and just sits empty.

Second, if we're going to change housing, it should be towards large, efficient apartment blocks with centralized facilities like heating, cooling, canteens, etc.

Their assumption is that without borders, all habitable land would become cities which you have no choice but to dwell within.

I keep hearing "ohh it's not the boomers' fault, they were misled, hoodwinked, tricked and could not have known what was to come". No, they knew and they let their representatives get away with it in exchange for "the good times". They're all middle-class and none of them have had to fight a German or bathe in a tin cradle. They continue to sell us short while believing they're owed things by virtue of having become elderly. Life has become a joke and they are the cause of it all.

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Anti-boomerism is the socialism of fools. That said, I'm grateful that I have silent generation grandparents who talk about milking goats and picking plumbs instead of hula hooping.

Just look at the multiple posters ITT enraged that someone would suggest building free standing single houses instead of high density urban nightmares. Communists love to talk about a society built for people rather than economics, but when it comes to housing they're so obsessed with cold efficiency they make patrick bateman look like a hippy.

The middle class is not real. People he tell us that the truckdriver to our family friend who pulls 6 figures at some bank are both middle class.

When the fuck did I do that? See, your persecution complex. You need HELP, buddy. Get off the internet and go talk to your parents about drugs.

How do they reconcile this with their notion of property rights? After all, they only own their own land, not the land around their land. They can't stop someone if they want to build a megamall or whatever next to their house.

Nobody said that. Get help, please.

If the alternative to cold efficiency is leaving billions of people in a state of continuous material deprivation, then cold efficiency is the only choice. No more than a narrow minority of humanity has ever lived in the suburbs, and continued American involvement in the middle east in order to secure oil for the suburban lifestyle and the considerable funds needed to maintain roads already have placed a strain on the united states.

The irony here is that it's ultimately going to be the capitalists who force you into an apartment as capitalism collapses further into crisis and they double down on neoliberal policy. Like every other supposedly sacred institution of the American "middle class" was destroyed by neoliberalism, and ultimately blamed on the "left" by the petit bourgeois reactionaries because they're too intensely ideological to see what's right in front of them.

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What you're telling me is that we need to strip everything from the middle class, because that's the only way they will hate the bourg for stripping everything from them.

"Boomers" are as much a product of imperialism and the cold war as they are their social standing, and plenty of people on Zig Forums are disgruntled LA natives. Hitler rose on the backs of millions of destitute germans. When it comes to the middle class and reactionary opinions, you're drawing conclusions that just aren't there.

Your first post called my desire to live in a single family home "cold war propaganda".

Holy shit, do you have no reading comprehension? I meant that the 'people shoved into a shared living space with 4 other families' was cold war propaganda.

I live in an apartment block. I find it highly amusing how terrified you are of it.

I think by "neutralize" he meant "kill off" and not "convince to think more like us".

It remains the case that both of you want to pull the borders down and let more and more people onto continually diminishing land. It's just that you call each favoring side one of "liberty" and each opposing side "rageful and greedy".

The fact remains that there is less and less land available. So long as you have lands where men are free, others are going to want to come and bask in that freedom. They will try climbing any square inch of coast in order to get there.

Try to start your own business and own your own means of production from that apartment block. Go ahead and try to be a blacksmith or a shipwright from that apartment of yours.

The peasants didn't need oil, thiccc infrastructure budgets, and a new car every 5-10 years. If you really do think that living as they did is something enjoyable in the long term, go right ahead, there really isn't much of a reason to stop you, since you won't be doing it on anyone else's back. Peasant agriculture does produce low yields per person, but can achieve wonderfully high yields per area.

Wew, did you blow in from the early 19th century? We're going into the latter stages of imperialist monopoly capital, garage smithies and backyard shipyards don't mean anything in comparison to the vast multinational industrial powers that really run the economy, and they only business you'll ever get is from the people in the higher reaches monopoly capital who view your products as luxury goods.

How many people are becoming blacksmiths and shipwrights because they live in the suburbs?

It's more like "we can provide all with the great benefits of modern technology, but not with the suburban model, which is astoundingly wasteful and inefficient.

Also, suburban housing is basically a scam and social engineering wrapped up into one.

I don't know where you live, I've been assuming you were American, but do you know how much fucking space there is in the United States? What will ultimately diminish all this space is… unchecked urban sprawl from the suburbs meme.

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No land to do that comrade. Land is portioned out by wealthier people and then sat upon. If I homestead it I'll be evicted. Both you and he like it that way because "the environment" is thus spared from development.

Not everything you do requires a lot of space to do it in, and likewise not everything you produce needs to be bought by the upper-classes. Candle-making is one example. Though I assume that buying a nice candle would be a rare treat for one whose income falls below peasantry.

Only rich people can afford to live there and rich people are lazy and creativeless. They seldom commission their own art any more; they just hoard whatever others have gone to the endeavor to produce as a way to stockpile money.

You must understand that a man needs the means to improve himself and needs a place to retire to. Preferably to work quietly and alone. It's difficult to offer this in an apartment complex. The minimum unit for humanity I would say should be something like "The Simpsons" house. An attempt at a parody stereotype of the American suburbia you say is wasteful and unacceptable.

Why would anyone besides the upper classes be interested in buying your candles when they can get ones cranked out by a factory at a fraction of the cost?

I'm talking in terms of real resources, suburban living is highly wasteful to the point that it isn't a model that can be universally applied, and there's very little reason to even want it to be applied universally beside "American Dream" romanticism. You don't use that land to farm (in fact, suburbs typically ban using your land for any kind of real, productive purpose), you just grow grass and bushes on it and blow a bunch of gas keeping it mowed and trimmed.

Why would you ever want to have blacksmiths and shipwrights? Do you know for sure that you actually enjoy doing either of these things? I don't think that there is anything necessarily more virtuous about either of these lines of work compared to the tasks necessary to maintain contemporary society. Would you enjoy using inferior tools or taking a month to cross the Atlantic, always worried that a storm will bring you to an early end?

You people define the stereotype.

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that poster actually sounds a bit like a blood and soil type to me, but I guess you could also be right

If population growth is self-sustained then new housing will only get built to replace the old, and if developers get carried away with their back yards then it's easy to make a case for dismissing their folly. "Ohh well the environment" and things like that. It's much harder to argue the case that people should be homeless, by virtue of being the last ones to arrive or deported back to where they came from "because mother nature needs all the help she can get". It's harder to fight or argue against open borders than it is lax planning laws.

I'm of poor peasant stock, but that doesn't diminish an eye for quality. Beeswax candles are better quality and smoke less than tallow-made candles. At least that's how the old ones used to be. Perhaps petroleum has replaced both kinds by now.

I actually just want to build boats so that I can sail a million miles away from here. I'm not offended by the land being used the way a city uses it. It's just that rich people sit on most of the land and don't let me homestead it because, as long as it's a peasant looking to use the land, the environment is of monumental concern.

I plan to build my boat out of ribbed carbon steel with a big diesel engine and sealed openings like that of a submarine. But I would rather risk death and embrace courage, than live the life I lead as a city dweller.

wrong on every point my boy

at least this user is closer to the truth

Japan has crammed most of its population into apartment blocks and has an unsustainably low birthrate to show for it.

Sounds like OP needs to look into Arcology

Thanks for the tip. I guess we need lots of apartments in order for fully antinatalist gay socialism to work

SJWs are lumpenbourgeoisie. Lumpenbourgeoisie are from the Middle Class. They are gonna turn Right as Fuck.

(me)
Also I'm not going to effortpost because I'm too tired but honestly OP's question is completely misframed imo. Irrespective of what mode of production or means of organizing society we're looking at, fundamentally the way in which housing operates will have to drastically change in the future given the daunting task of making any kind of community sustainable in the face of environmental collapse, global warming, access to cheap & cleaner energy. You can talk about the logistical and practical arguments surrounding specific types of housing like apartment blocks, suburbs etc and way in which we occupy these spaces can change the way we view the world & our ideologies but even bricks are made using Fossil Fuels so I'd argue that you'd need to really remove all assumptions from the debate about the structure of housing at present or in the future as capitalism faces collapse.

This but unironically.

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Thanks for that, that clears up all my concerns

Prove how the fuck these 2 things are even remotely related please?

If it wasn't true you shouldn't have said it, faggot.

Population density beyond a certain level of prosperity encourages atomisation of social bonds which leads to dysfunctional outcomes like NEETs and cratering birth-rates.

I don't think it's apartment blocks causing NEETs and crashing birth rates dude
t. former NEET

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Once you live in a city you witness that land is at such a premium, and that life is such an inescapable suffering for the vast majority, that "no fucks given" is your outlet and soon this culture takes over the whole city, eventually including the women within it so that breeding with them begins to look abhorrent.

They should be the first ones to feel it
let them reap what they've sown

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why do I have the feeling this is some pretty intense projection

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I'm surprised anyone's taking the OP seriously after this response.

I thought you are describing Stephen King's the Shining

Yeah, not exactly counteracting my argument against sticking people in millions-strong ant-hives

I don't represent the whole left, but I don't think there's a valid reason to hate "middle class".

What is referred to as middle class is either workers with higher wages or petite-bourgeois, both of which have common interests with the common worker.
Especially in times of crisis their benefits are taken away by the capitalist system that can no longer afford them.
The problem is that sometimes they are lead to reactionary beliefs because of that.

lol, that looks almost almost exactly like where I live.
It's almost all white and asian people too. I can't wait to get out.

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Read Peter Hitchens, Corbyn's british socialism will save this country.

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You fuken wot m8?! Jesus, Zig Forums get your shit together.

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Why are petit bourg burgers so fucking stupid?

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t. brainlet

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Taxes without private property? What is going to be taxed, exactly?

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And how are you going to maintain society without taxes, numb-skull? Who's going to push papers 15 hours a day to keep your country running with no compensation? Or make sure all the murderers and child rapists get their comeuppance?

maybe there wouldn't be an IRS, but surplus labor would have to somehow be extracted to run the state

Answer the question first: how do you have taxes without private property?

So what is Socialism, then?

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There is not much to argue against when you don't know shit about anything politics related, contemporary, history or theory. Muh evil boogieman gommis control the world through the corporations is fucking retarded and you should realize this.

How do you abolish private property? There's no point in me entertaining you on any level if you can't even answer how you're going to have a system to begin with.

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Ok move to america or russia, plenty of space there. Hope you like farming or ranching or being a service worker to whatever town you're in.

How are you going to extract surplus labor? For that matter how are you going to extract any kind of labor?

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The absolute state of Zig Forums!

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Not everything written on the internet is sarcasm.

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Socialism is the movement of the working class to overthrow capitalism, establish a workers' state that eventually withers away as class society dies off (since maintaining class dominance is the primary purpose of the state, the state becomes obsolete in a classless society), losing its state character and simply becoming administrative institutions.
marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/

Did he say that? You dense motherfucker.

So, tell me, user, how are you going to get the means of production in the hands of the workers?

Yes he did.

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I'm sorry you interpreted that way. I meant those jobs have no appeal to me but if it appeals to someone else that's not a problem.

And I thought Zig Forums were low Autism Level. You people are fucking hysterical.

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