How do I fight the "muh communism killed the entire world population" argument when talking to normies...

tell them that before they became socialist nations, every problem they associate with socialism was pretty much already the norm under capitalism or feudalism. as for pol pot, he was more of an ultra-nationalist than a communist, and it should definitly be pointed out that when vietnam invaded cambodia and installed an actual, functioning socialist govt, the u.s, along with dengist china, provided tons of arms and funding to the exiled khmer rouge, and refused to recognize the new leadership.

You should tell them the vast majority of deaths in socialist countries were by causes exterior to socialism, like famines. and ofc you should tell them they weren't manmade if they believe that, that's retarded

Yeah successfully creating a classless, moneyless society is not real socialism because of deaths due to American and Vietnamese forces.

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No. Unless you have some specific objective (like persuading people to create trade union; in which case you talk about specific things), you should avoid wasting time on nonsense people believe in.

How will socialism ever be relevant if we can't debunk the bullshit people believe in?

But you are not debunking anything. Overwhelming majority of those who attack communism are not going to be persuaded even if you'll bring ten thousand books all supporting your position. They aren't even talking about communism, not for real. They are virtue-signalling.

Backbone of the revolution - organized Proletariat - doesn't need to believe that Stalin did nothing wrong. It need only to follow its own direct interests. The objective of Vanguard is to permit Proletariat to realize those interests in the most effective way, not win popularity contests. What it needs persuading people in is that people should seize the power, not build Stalin statues.

Is this simple enough?

Generally speaking just pointing out that they know nothing about history and have never read a book in their lives will work 99% of the time. The biggest possible error would be to respect the intelligence of the uneducated and not point this out.

Beyond that, the only way to defeat those who might actually have some knowledge about 20th century history is to learn it yourself. There are no shortcuts.

pol pot was backed by the CIA
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_United_States_support_for_the_Khmer_Rouge

as for op's question don't forget to mention that every year at least 100,000 people die under capitalism. and that's not by any specific person to blame that's just the fault of economics. not to e-celab but here's a good video on it:
youtube.com/watch?v=QnIsdVaCnUE

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Actually a decent response I think. You can ask them to elaborate. Who was killed. Why. What was happening. They're likely not going to know. Just humble them. If you don't know anything about it either you should read more.

YOU DON'T. YOU TELL THEM "IF I WAS STALIN, MAO, OR POL POT I WOULD HAVE KILLED MORE. PEOPLE LIKE YOU WOULD BE THE FIRST TO GO! IF I WAS STALIN AND I GOT A SECOND CGANCE, I'D DO IT ALL AGAIN! 200 MILLION WASN'T ENOUGH!"
APOLOGIZING ONLY CONCEDES THAT YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG, BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT COMMUNISTS HAVE NEVER DONE ANYTHING WRONG. THE ONLY THING WE'VE DONE WRONG IS TO ALLOW LIBERALISM TO EXIST.

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When people make the "muh 100Million dead"-argument it is always important to attack their foundation.

The people making that argument aren't just saying "killing people is bad, therefore stalin was bad", they are saying "the west/capitalism hasn't killed as many people as communist regimes, therefore capitalism is morally superior to communism".

An easy way to win against that position is to point out the capitalist death toll. How many people died in direct consequence of global capitalism? Death by hunger, poluted water, imperialist wars.

If they object you can now point out that they clearly only care about the death of people if it happens in specific countries borders, that they decided to stay ignorant.

TL:DR
If they really care about human rights, they will have to object imperialist actions (which are ongoing btw unlike the ussr which doesnt exist anymore).
If they dont care about human rights, there's no point in objecting stalinist actions-

FUCKING BASED
THE BLOOD OF COUNTERREVOLUTIONARIES WILL FERTILIZE THE MOTHERLAND

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You fight by telling the person making such claims that they are perpetuating lies. Conquest made up his numbers and in the 1990s. After the opening of the previously secret Soviet archives historians saw that all the numbers were made up and Conquest pulled his claims (but of course in quiet and without much publicity, so his "facts" live till this day).
Also point out how the authors of Black book of communism made up much of the numbers they put in the book and how they admitted that.
Next, ask the person making such claims how a) Communism killed X million Soviets b) World war 2 killed another X million of Soviets, but the population grew quite substantially after the end of the civil war and into the 50's.
Mao was also in a civil war.
Pol Pot was a CIA funded guy, and the actual communists from Vietnam had to remove him from power.
Everything was a process of trying to build communism, because communism isn't when the Soviet gobberment owns industries and does stuff.

Excellent post right here. Fuck 20th century, fuck Stalin and the whites and Pol Pot. Workers need to realize they have to seize control. Whether they think gobbunizm killed trillions or not.

...

Like others said above, anticommunists who talk about trillions of dead don't care about facts. You can argue that those giant death tolls have no real historical basis and contradict actual evidence but they'll probably call you a liar and a commie. You can just beat them at their own game, the USSR and China lost far, far more people thanks to imperialist aggression

How 'bout something real not fiction?

Starving people to death to stretch food supplies is immoral and something only an egghead could think up. At least with the capitalist pigs people can understand their greed. But murder by egghead logic is absolutely cold blooded.

Those who died due to the famines saved many more lives as if not for the Soviets and their collectivization campaigns the famines would of been far worse as those with food would of hoarded it or charged outrageous prices for Bread and Grain people. If you don't make food supplies stretch you have no food supplies or the vast majority of people have even worse access to it. I have no doubt if the Kulaks were allowed to retain their crops and livestock many many more millions of Peasants would of died and during periods of food uncertainty it makes sense to have a centrally planned distribution system
The deaths caused by Greed are easily avoidable the ones by famines caused by civil wars,weather,droughts and sabotage not so much.
if you want the real murderers look at the Whites,Kulaks and imperialist powers who refused to trade with the Soviets in a effort to starve them into submission.

ONE HUNDRED MILLION MORE BOURGEOISIE AND COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARIES ARE NEEDED IN THE BLOOD FURNACES WHICH WILL POWER OUR INEVITABLE WHEELS OF HISTORY AS THEY CRUSH THE FOUNDATION OF CAPITAL AND IT'S SERVANTS UNDER OUR REVOLUTIONARY MIGHT

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Unironically show them this.

quora.com/How-many-people-did-Mao-really-kill
is this guy right?

Facts. Even if the facts disturb you and your beliefs. Normies understand facts, they understand number of likes, follows and the sort. I do implore the veterans to really address the topic of food and communism and/or socialism.
Do not even mention "real" or "actual" communist and socialist outside leftist. Just accept that Pol Pot was a Cambodian Communist or Cambodian socialist. Outside communist and socialist discussion boards just leave it, Democracy was founded in Greece and despite not being the sort of democracy that has developed today (the good examples of it of course) it was still considered democracy.
Accept responsibility and shortcomings of said ideology and advocate the positives both implemented and "in the works".
Honestly just stop it! Check above
I dont know user, lets keep telling them for another 30 years that it wasnt real communism and that it wasnt real socialism. The "shitstain" was exacerbated by the shortcomings of the communists and socialists. Let me ask you lot: Where the fuck where you lot when gamergate was happening? It brought together different groups of people in the biggest cultural exchange on the internet.

point out what happens when you try to do socialism peacefully
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'etat

What about actual arguments like the stagnation of the Eastern bloc or the revisionism of almost all formerly leftist countries (African countries, Vietnam, Laos, China)
or the countries with a socialist leader where nothing is happening to turn the country socialist and poverty runs rampant (Bolivia, Venezuela)

and also you can't say "socialism has never been tried in an already industrialized country" ith countries like Dance Dance Revolution, Czechoslovakia and Lithuania

Not even arguably true during the civil war and his term as Prime Minister. The closest his critics can come is to point to some supportin the post '79 guerilla period (after he had resigned as secretary) and pretend it was always like that.

Yugoslavia, motherfucker.

Well, what about the stagnation in the Eastern bloc? There was no stagnation in the Western bloc in the 70s crisis?
Lets take a look at UK and Yugoslavia. In the UK hundreds of thousands of workers lost their jobs and in the areas affected unemployment is still sky high. Welfare was obliterated, public systems were obliterated. But yeah, non proles were able to buy bananas and cars or whatever.
In Yugoslavia, the crisis was different. The state stopped importing bananas (I am using bananas here because that is the "biggest" argument the rightists can come up with) and certain products not produced locally. However, workers still worked, public infrastructure still worked, no layoffs, no rampant unemployment and poverty, no homelessness etc. Yugoslav economy started to recover after 1986, but the nationalists were already running wild by then.
As the world bounced back in the 90s, so would the socialist states. But there was no bounce back with the collapse. Russia even in 2010 had a lower GDP than in 1990 for example. Because the system collapsed, everything collapsed, and for a long while noone took care of roads for example or for apartments buildings etc. So that is why everything looked and somewhere still looks shitty and ugly and dirty.

Both systems had crises, but guess which one survived?
And yugo wasn't even socialist, lol

Umm… try again sweetie

Honestly the stagnation of the 80s is nothing compared to the hard crash of capitalist restoration.
Also, the DDR, Czechoslovakia and the Baltic states were actually GOAT because they were already industrialized. They were top tier in HDI.

There's literally a video of Margaret Thatcher saying the Khmer Rouge are great friends. And a video of Reagan supporting them.

LOL

Where the fuck were you lot when boycotting DRM software for software freedom?

*when we're

both czechians and lithuanians hated it and demonstrated against socialism, just look at the prague spring or the baltic way
and west germany was way better than Dance Dance Revolution ever was, just look at how many people moved from the East to the West (or tried to).

How many?

Also, you don't know what Prague spring was. Maybe you should learn about history and historical events before trying to make arguments around them?

"The Prague Spring (Czech: Pražské jaro,Slovak: Pražská jar) was a period of politicalliberalization and mass protest inCzechoslovakia as a Communist state afterWorld War II. It began on 5 January 1968, when reformist Alexander Dubček was elected First Secretary of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia (KSČ), and continued until 21 August 1968 when the Soviet Union and other members of the Warsaw Pact invaded the country to suppress the reforms."

that shit doesn't fly here fam

Anyways if you consider that
Then it is nothing short of a miracle how closely the DDR was tailing the BRD

Ah yes, the anti-communist Prague spring, whose supporters were trying to build "Socialism with a Human Face. Obviously a massive rejection of left-wing ideals.

1987, the Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev acknowledged that his liberalizing policies of glasnost and perestroika owed a great deal to Dubček's "socialism with a human face".[78] When asked what the difference was between the Prague Spring and Gorbachev's own reforms, a Foreign Ministry spokesman replied, "Nineteen years."

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meant for

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Why did they allot Berlin to both parties? Why did they build a wall and spy on the population? Why did people hate Honecker and crave for Gorby's dick?

Why was the socialist regime so oppressive there?

1968-1979 was a weird interregnum in the history of class struggle
did we miss our chance?

The USSR was an imperialist super power, fuck them. We need autonomous socialism!

nationalism

USSR had borne the brunt of the fascist assault and was too devastated to assert a stronger position.
The antifascist wall protected against saboteurs entering and leaving freely. Despite that, the US and BRD worked tirelessly to undermine the DDR, foe example by dropping potato beetles on farmlands to ruin the harvest.
Same reason any state does. Western liberal democracies surveil their population far more thoroughly than a communist state ever did - or could for that matter.
Why did people hate Honecker and crave for Gorby's dick?
You think "the people" want guaido as well, don't you?
spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html

If you don't suppress reactionaries they will continue undermining your society until capitalism is restored. As soon as Mikhail "Judas" Gorbachov pulled out the support and counter-intelligence from the SSRs the CIA had free hand to overthrow the socialist states in cooperation with the expropriated former bourgeoisie. 200 million was not enough tbh

I'm sure the world would be a worse place if the Soviet Union still existed. We don't need a socialist super power as a check to American hegemony. You complete fucking liberal moron.

So instead of letting people decide through vote if reforms should be passed (which there obviously was demand for) we just oppress them?
You are extremely naive if you think CIA was the one orchestrating the fall of the Eastern Bloc.

People did vote, but they did not respond in conformity with "western values", so they were ignored.

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so… this is the power…. of ☭TANKIE☭ thought

The USSR was the greatest force of anti-imperialism the world has ever seen. They supported national liberation movement all over the world. Cuba, China and the DPRK exist thanks to them.

*in part of course, but even the viet cong would have not been successful without soviet anti-air support and reconnaissance.

Inform them that the US supported Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge for years after they came to power in the Cambodian Genocide.

jakkkobinmag.com/2015/04/khmer-rouge-cambodian-genocide-united-states/

There are CIA documents that are public, which shiw that this is what they did. Or creating organisations such as National Endowment for Democracy: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy.

In the 1980s they had their backs against the wall and Pol Pot wasn't the leader anymore.

Cool graph someone posted earlier. Hope it helps to put it into perspective so you can study it and shit.

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