Why are so many people on the left obsessed with trans issues? I have nothing against trans people...

you are thinking of liberals

So are you ok with radlibs who declare themselves leftists demonizing working people who are ignorant about trans people or are transphobic?

Not that user, but that is a separate issue entirely. We aren't okay with radlibs in general, and especially not okay with ones that want to sow division among the working class.

Gender is a social construct. It is misogynistic as fuck to pretend that men can possibly know what it means to be a woman. Your gender isn't a fucking "feeling." It's based upon how you are socialized, as well as your biology.

It's due to the dichotomy of all things. Leftists are decidedly more feminine in their politic

As for why? Reducing gender to how you self-identity is contradictory to a materialist analysis on gender. You can't achieve female liberation when you define "man" and "woman" by the stereotypes they fulfill. Nothing wrong with being a "feminine" man or a "masculine" woman. And as exploration of women forms the base of capitalism, trans issues work against the development of socialism.

That sounds like spooky garbage to me fam.

I really hope someone can shed some light on this beyond what I already know. I have no problem with trans people, most of the ones I've met are just regular people that have Dsyphoria and regardless I don't really think that there even needs to be a medicalization of "otherness" and that the "born this way" narrative can ultimately serve reactionary ends that prevents us from breaking out of paradigms of reification of identity.

I also know that Pharma is very interested in Trans advocacy within the Liberal NGO/Non-Profit realm because of the controversies surrounding the inefficacy of hormone supplements to non-trans patients and the billions in lawsuits they've had to pay out for giving menopausal women cancer etc. Their interest in this is clearly profit motivated, as all their interests are, and if anything this is harmful to trans people because it stifles the neccessary research to be done to ensure completely accessible & simple transition.

Where it gets confusing for me is that within Academia there seems to be a certain cadre of those associated with Butler who have some kind of weird ideological fixation that involves using expression of non-conformative gender identity as some kind of liberatory framework, which, regardless of it's validity or not, Communists should have much to say about this (for obvious reasons), but also those like Zizek & Jameson and many more (I recall a paper posted by a European Psychoanalyst who echoed these sentiments here recently) who claim that such an adoption and expression of said Identity is not only permissable within Capitalism but is actually the prevailing logic of the Post-Fordist capitalist era, and many other salient points.

These theories, whilst partially indicative of the state of academia, with people being forced to increasingly publish mroe and more weird and out there shit that's self-justifying to get noticed or even keep their jobs (There is a good Derrick Varn podcast on Sectarian Review where he talks about his experience in Academia that covers the intricacies of this), combined with petit-bourgeois sensibilities seem to explain some of this, especially the resonance it finds with petit-bourg children, but it doesn't fully paint an entire timeline, and there are some very strange thigns that have come out of such like the existence of something called "Troons", which to my understanding are cis Men who are Trans whilst still presenting as Male with no intention to transition? And these types have particularly drawn the ire of those that are called "TERFs", who are a whole other issue.

I don't really fall on either or any side of whatever ideological set of battles is going on with modern "Gender Theory" it would just be more elucidating to actually know where to look to understand all of this stuff.

Define feminine

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Part of the problem is hairtrigger responses like these which don't take the spirit of education as a communist to heart. Yours isn't as bad as some of the other ones I've seen and it's very understandable when a group sees their issues being dismissed and also that there is a lot of reactionary opposition to certain social issues it can make you feel as if everyone is like that but you also have to realise that you actively notice it because you are trans.

Ultimately if you want recognition you need to do what other oppressed groups did, force it and defeat all of your ideological opponents, especially without throwing around words like "Class Reductionism" because it's pretty clear you don't know what that means and then individually replying, refuting and BTFOing retards if neccessary as opposed to make passive aggressive vent posts like this into the ether.

How come they only ever get discussed here when someone else brings up how we're the ones supposedly obsessed with them. I'm not buying it.

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You must have your head buried in the sand if you don't see people who claim themselves to be leftists going on and on about trans issues. You can't log into Twitter without seeing some dumb shit complaining about "TERFs".

We need more class reductionism. Fuck off.

Trans issues are class issues. The ruling class can afford whatever therapies, treatments, and surgeries they need to feel comfortable in their own skin. The working class must either sell their labor to afford a fraction of that before they get too old, or they just kill themselves when they're in their 30s.

You have your point, but I am a phoneposter though, so I can't spend too much time critically responding to OP, so I base my sentiments on emotion, which I don't feel is wholly invalidating in itself. Could you answer my question though, why do leftists seem to particularly lack support for LGBTQ+ issues?

no, we don't

well maybe a little bit

"Trans rights" are in direct contradiction with women's rights.

yes, exactly, which is why it annoys me when Jazz Jennings or Caitlyn Jenner get so much coverage for being "brave" or however, rather than a working class trans person who grew up in an intolerant family and transitioned too late because of repression. The thing about us is that we don't get "woman of the year" awards after it either, we remain helpless wageslaves.

how? i'm interested in that part, not a tranny myself

Not just "black and woman issues", black and women's PROLETARIAN issues, the issues absolutely must intersect with class or else you run the risk of creating another "black capitalism" movement, or pic related, for example. This isn't class reductionism, this is necessary in order to prevent these emancipation movements from being hijacked by bourgeois interests, as they so often are.

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TERFs are gender essentialists, they're intellectually redundant. The only reason why anyone would defend them is because they're transphobic.

I don't know that they do, I'm this poster and what I'm interested in is this particular current within Academia which I think through a distortion of the way that it's been disseminated to bigger audiences has lost a lot in translation (this is the case with a lot of terms, like "Emotional Labour" which essentially went from an insightful observation about how certain fields of wage labour have expectations placed upon them that amount to performing reproductive labour on top of everything else to people thanking each other for making social media posts). I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that irrespective of the existence of trans people, there is a certain way that it has melded with a lot of the more problematic aspects of Intersectionality and is currently in the period of undergoing acceptance within Liberalism and some of it is just awkward growing pains. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on things that you might see as problems with the Discourse on both sides, if you have any, since you seem particularly passionate about this issue.

begome monist :DDD

TERFs are yes, but not everyone who is labelled a TERF is a gender-essentialist, because it has taken on the property of being a label to apply to someone who you disagree with, as essentially a snarl word that is meant to end all discussion (how much of this you can attribute to the format of social media itself is debatable), essentially it's a way of "cancelling" someone within a certain part of the "Left".

Intersectionality has been entirely lost in tramslation within academia. It was originally a socialist formulation of how being working class intersects with other things sich as being black or a woman, or both and however, it was a class-based form of analysis. The notorious "prejudice+power = racism" used to be in reference to how the privacy of employment would allow and promote discrimination against black workers. So power used to be in the hands of the bourgeoisie, but now, these dumb kids that the "power" in reference is whiteness, which is a horrifying perversion of intersectionality which I absolutely do not support.

The whole performative deconstruction of gender stuff is propagated by "non-binary" identifying peoples, not transgender individuals, whom mostly retain to the gender binary, that's why we have the category of transwoman and transman, not trans(insert here), since it is such a widely observed phenomenon, we don't confuse it with simple subjectivity. I don't know much about Butler, I know that she is a postmodern feminist but that's it, I'm not sure how capitalism promotes the manufacturing of non-conformity besides the hollow "individualism" of neoliberalism, which I wouldn't equate with gender identity, personally.

here's a video on intersectionality if you're interested:

youtu.be/j_srHFez588

Capitalism is the root cause of mental illness. Destroying the root of your pain is pretty consequent

Repeat after me:

How? "TERFS" don't believe in innate differences in men and woman, other than the material reality. "TERFS" believe that the differences between men and woman results from socialization. The patriarchy isn't caused by men deciding one day to oppress women, it results from, primarily, the exploitation of women's reproductive labor, as well as the fact that men, as a class, are physically stronger than women. Trans ideology, on the other hand, inextricably ties gender and sex, making the nebulous concept of "womanhood" and "manhood" (i.e. sex stereotypes) to the extent that acting "feminine" is something reserved for "women," and if a man acts feminine, they must actually be a woman in a man's body.

Read this: spectator.co.uk/2018/03/transgender-activists-and-the-real-war-on-women/

What you have said about communist praxis sounds pretty good to me. Still, there's a big problem with intersectionality since it views class as just another oppression with no special status in contrast to Marxism with its theory of base and superstructure.

Can’t tell if you’re joking or not but plenty of trans people are “aut-right” and post pics of their boi pussy for their flashy daddies online. Not surprising that people with such fucked up notions of femininity would be like that tho

...

You are absolutely incorrect, transgender people have never claimed that if you are a feminine man that you must chemically transition and castrate yourself, that is the type of essentialism that transgender people have opposed. Transgender "ideology" merely says that your gender identity is valid and it is your choice to choose how to live with your feelings. Obviously many trans people choose to chemically transition, and most are happier afterwards, which points to a "material reality" you're overlooking. The neurological establishment says that sexed brains exist and that they typically determine gender identity, so transgender people possess oppositely sexed brains most of the time.

And the whole "real women's rights" is just another bullshit reactionary plot to cultivate transphobia, you're literally taking the side of Sargon if Akkad right now. Please consider an alternative outlook.

it is commonly an economic tradition

Trans women are essentially doing blackface of women. If I painted my face black and walked around like a stereotypical "nigger," for lack of a better word, I'd be rightfully called out for my racism. But if men walk around with lipstick and a dress, acting like a stereotype of femininity, somehow its brave.

I think "plenty" is a colossal exaggeration, I'd wager there are more fascist furries than there are fascist trans people and nobody pretends they are anything but a handful of bizarre outliers.

now I know why they call it lefty/pol/

I mean it is, but gender must be abolished. Trans people strengthen the gender binary they claim to be against.

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Because being against misogyny makes you pretty much a nazi

I'm not, ignorance is not a sin, however, workers who refuse to support the leftist cause because they don't want to associate with non-whites or homosexuals or transgender are playing right into the hands of the elite. A divided working class is what they want. One that's left behind its prejudices and unites behind a socialist cause rather than feuding over ultimately meaningless identity issues is what they fear.

Because I have trans comrades and I wish do to well by them and see them prosper in a communist system, also I am not exclusionary over these matters as long as they maintain a materialist perspective foremost in their lives. Plus any anti-trans stuff tends to lend itself to social conservatives and their dumbass cultural mores, generally I have a disregard for the current societal morality and believe in a radical transformation of morals away from these capitalist moralities into a new and more open socialist morality.

s e l f c r i t

You fucking dumbass crossdressing was rarely used ridicule women in contrast to the blackface.

They aren't

yeah you're totally right, all transwomen are misogynists, so woke.

there are biological differences between trans and non trans people that explain their behaviour tho, even if you believed there are differences between the races there aren't any people actually pretending to be a race they aren't(at least not in a movement as widely accepted as transgenderism)and a basis for identifying as another race wouln't exist either

I think everybody here can agree with you. Anybody opposing trans issues on moral grounds is just being deluded by bourgeois morality, like taking a hard stance on keeping bathrooms gender segregated as if there is some universal rule that men and women can't shit and piss in the same room, these things are remnants of antiquated bourgeois Judaeo-Christian doctrine that have no place in a socialist society.

You can be bigoted without realizing it. Most racists don't believe that they are racist. Most homophobes don't believe they are homophobic. Don't know why internalized misogyny is such a hard concept to grasp. And yes, it is misogynistic to act like men, who have benefited from male privilege, and have experienced male socialization, can claim to know what it means to be a woman, to experience sexism, and that "feeling like a woman" MAKES you a woman.

transgender brain science:

youtu.be/os7bOBlre5E

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Such as?

No, they are dead right about socialization. A trans woman will never have the lived experience of a biological woman. Trans women grew up as boys. They will never have the same gendered experience as biological women.

Stupid

It depends on context. Crossdressing certainly CAN be used to challenge gender norms, but people doing it "as a joke" or whatever? Going to drag shows with friends and dressing up as feminine as they possibly can? Yeah, that's sexist.

Okay, so what "makes you a woman" then?

I read a story of a transman who was socialised as a female and they relayed a story completely different from a woman socialised as a female, our internal sense of identity is still a powerful thing which can transcend how we're taught how to behave. You don't think it would be easier for me to be able to just follow society's and my family's expectations and live as a man? It is a bery hard thing to do, I have been trying to repress for years but it is impossible to deny.

How can someone be so misogynistic that they would risk losing all of their personal relationships and reputation to become a "non-passable" weirdo? Just for shits and giggles? Do you think people also choose to be gay too?

Socialism only works if you get rid of the fags and kikes first

yes, i know. That's why we make a distinction between cis women and trans women, to account for our experiences, not just to identify our respective genitals.

There issues are socialist issues because they experience misogyny and oppression from capitalism. Think of it, the only way they've really been accepted into the mainstream is to enter into misogyny for the sake of profits by making themselves attractive to men and being useful to the porn industry.

so much for the tolerant left

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How society treats you. Your socialization. The shared experience of being biologically female. Women are a class. Men are a class. You cannot identify out of the proletariat into the bourgeoisie.

They are starting to ruin leftypol, and so must be purged.
They are starting to post their ecelebs. They are straight from Twitter or Discord.
They must be opposed or else we won’t survive.

See this is interesting because it runs counter completely to my understanding of how Intersectionality arose, so it calls into question who is being Revisionist. It's a pretty well accepted narrative in Communist circles that "Intersectionality" as coined by Kimberly Crenshaw has always more or less been understood as a Liberal Framework and how it is practiced certainly reinforces that (Partially due to the "Lost in Translation" phenomenon we've spoken of). Crenshaw initially came up with the term after her work in Critical Legal Theory, in particular with a case whereby a Black Woman had a dispute with an Employer whereby she claimed that she was being discriminated against, but since the Employer in question hired both Women & Black Men there was no legal precedent for it.

It's certainly true that Critical Theory itself has Marxist roots but it seems to me that something created by a Liberal working within a Bourgeois Legal system on the grounds of "Discrimination" (Which isn't a category Marxists are all that interested it, it's thoroughly Liberal) to be claimed as Socialist to be a misnomer. In fact I would say that the body of work preceeding Intersectionality by Social Reproduction Theorists and the like is a more compatible framework for Marxists seeing as it was taken directly from Marx himself and expanded upon.

I wasn't aware that it was mostly "Non-Binary" people who talked about the deconstruction narrative, forgive my ignorance. From the people that I know most of them claim to be "Non-Binary" and Trans at the same time and they all read Butler and other people, and they very much seem to champion Trans points of discussion such as Misgendering. Personally my problem with Butler from what little I know of her is that she seems to be wholly complicit in American Imperialism calling for the Overthrow of Assad and the like but that's neither here nor there.

If you'd like to know more of what I'm talking about I'd suggest looking into Frederick Jameson's "Postmodernism: Or the Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism", both the book itself but also there are various video essays and interviews with Jameson talking about a lot of it.

If we're exchanging content on the matter I'd also like to give some background to my understanding of said things, I don't have much in the way of literature to recommend (otherwise I wouldn't be so confused about all this), but there are a few podcast that I think are pertinent.

revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/gender-abolition-michel-foucault-marxism-leninism
sectarianreviewpodcast.com/episodes-and-show-notes/episode-83-keywords-a-vocabulary-of-barbarism-and-stupidity-pt-1
sectarianreviewpodcast.com/episodes-and-show-notes/episode-84-keywords-part-ii
sectarianreviewpodcast.com/episodes-and-show-notes/episode-85-cultural-marxism-keywords-part-3

And, in reference to my earlier posts, I also have one where Varn talks about the structure of employment in Academia
sectarianreviewpodcast.com/episodes-and-show-notes/episode-92-the-grievance-studies-hoax

There are some other things I recall (Like the psychoanalysis study I mentioned earlier) but I'd have to attempt to actively look them up, if I do I'll reply to you again.

Tell that to all the "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" in the US.

Straight up cringy video and image

Ideally, there would be no such thing as "living like a man" and "living like a woman." I am truly sorry if you have suffered under the prison of gender, and if you do not conform to societies image of a man. However, better identifying with the role society forces upon woman does not make you a woman.

Is your post ironic?

transwomen can also experience similar experiences to cis women after transitioning. Many transwomen are harassed and raped by men, I would call that a feminist issue, not a masculinist one. You seem to be coming from a point of affirming the gender binary and perfectly designating humanity into these groups. I believe it is more complicated than that.

This, i don't mind transgender people but honestly both OP and everyone that decided to engage can go fuck themselves. Fuck everything that isn't class.

user didn’t say identify from the bourgeoisie into the proletariat

There are many different roles women undertake, some which intersect with male roles, like women who becomes CEOs or mechanics. It is not so cut-and-dry as you imagine.

Also, they would do this because they genuinely believe that they are a man or a woman. Obviously people don't choose to be gay. You cannot force yourself to be attracted to a sex that you are not. The narrative that "you are trans if you question your gender identity" and that all trans people are 100% correct in believing that they are the other gender, does imply that you can choose to be trans.

So fuck your mom?
I can’t believe it how many assholes are on Zig Forums fucking bigoted scum.
Trans issues are a class issue.
Everybody who doesn’t agree should shot themselves and go back to >>>pol.

Wow, nice left unity. "If you disagree with me on one issue, you're a nazi."

Ever heard of the term ‘expection of a rule’?

You can't choose how you react to things. You can conceptualise ideas and your own identity and whatnot but you can't just "decide" to feel dysphoric about your assigned gender, or by the shape of your body and it's features. It is not a singular claim, to be transgender, it arises from an existential discomfort. A transgender woman is a state of being exclusive to certain individuals, like being gay is to others, and also being straight. Subjectivity does not simply imply self-creation.

Retarded post

yes, and many transwomen fall in line with many feminine expectations, they become mothers and housewives and feminists and fans of Harry Potter. The trends between cis women and trans women are not arbitrary or performed. Trans women are women. I don't know why it would hurt you to admit that.

Trans women being harassed and raped is not equivalent to the experiences of cis women.

They aren't.

Trans women are not mothers.

People with no class consciousness gravitate towards IDpol because they've been sheltered at university.

Notice these "leftists" are students, professors or work some middle management or something

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being raped and harassed by men who fetishise the principle of your femininity is a common problem with trans and cis women.

adoptive mothers are still mothers

Literally every quote they used, from both Mao and Sarkessian, are 100% true lmao

They don't have wombs. They cannot create ova. A man can't become a mother, especially once he's had himself sterilized.

>>>/liberalpol/

That is a loose connection at best and a singular one. Trans women who are out and attempt to publicly present as women do face a much harsher social reality than biological women. I'm skeptical of a lot of trans issues and I acknowledge that obvious reality. Their experiences are not similar in the slightest.

ebin