/leftybritpol/ - OP is a retard editon

Honestly right now we know fuck-all about what the country actually thinks: british politics has been in this weird stasis since 2017 where nobody knows what's fucking happening and nobody knows who they actually support. Honestly the next election is going to be a fucking shit-show: I have no idea who will win or how.

wait… isn't the marxist position that the EU is gay and we should leave it?

I'm a Marxist and I'm not even sure I'm pro-Brexit (I voted remain anyway). Most of the Labour membership are not Marxists but liberals and leftwingers, and even the ones who are are more Eurocommies like me than ardently independent like perhaps Corbyn's generation.

I see Europe as a lesser evil to US control which is the only alternative.

I have a feeling it was pretty decentralised and just done by random wanks. It's the most british shitposting I've ever seen and honestly brings a tear to my eye. Makes you proud to be a bong.

so you would like the EU to reform instead?
anyways the first week after brexit will be epic and I can't wait

Yeah I guess, I don't see what the alternative is. Clearly Brexit is unworkable as has been demonstrated now a million times over. I mean what, we're going to let the Troubles start back up again?

Eh the thing is I do think the EU can be reformed but such reform is impossible with the UK as a part of it.

Yes

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I listened to a debate the other day about lexit/reform which made a convincing case that the UK was the only real opponent to German liberal hegemony within the EU. Its just that we didn't actually do anything to oppose them because no one really gave much of a shit about eu politics until now.
Without the UK in it it may just get even more shitty and aggressive with neoliberal policy to its members until it collapses from French style anger.
Additionally, its not as if we actually have to follow EU law while in the bloc. The UK was actually one of the member nations that followed each EU law the most even though we probably had the least to lose from it.
Whereas we could just fuck the laws off, especially as we are not in the euro so they can't fuck us in the economy like Greece.
It convinced me that a labout government in the EU with some belligerence could possibly get away with some stuff and make some change too.

B A S E D
A
S
E
D

The best part is that Charlie Kirk thinks this is positive press…
The absolute dolt. Tbh I doubt the fake accounts will ever be properly dealt with, especially considering there is already a British org called Turning Point.

haha good bantz my friend ~_^

but seriously that would be a humanitarian tragedy and the IRA was barely socialist to begin with, it certainly wouldn't be nowadays.

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To add to that image, invalid votes only made up 0.99% of the total vote.

Wasn't this a period with massive issues about Norn Catholics not being on electoral rolls though?

It's going by the total voting population at the time but I suppose you could have a point, if they were really not on the rolls they wouldn't be counted there either - HOWEVER a vote boycott is always the cowards/scoundrels option just like in VZ when 'i declare myself interim president' guy did it. When you know you can't win the election just declare it has no legitimacy and hope nobody noticed that it was mathematically impossible for you to win anyway.

The US establishment is very pro-EU and anti-Brexit though. I don't know where you get this idea that the EU and US are in opposition.

The EU is designed the way it is for a reason. It is not going to allow itself to be reformed.

And you claim to be a Marxist?

Oh yes, clearly any sort of actual change that might risk conflict is unworkable.

Not really, loads of US orgs funded the leave campaign. And US liberals don't really give a shit about the EU.

this has got to be one the most fucking British thing on twitter.

Yeah let's instead critically support actual fucking reactionaries and nationalists because that will somehow lead to socialism.

The polite US establishment is only mildly pro-EU because it's a secondary defence against Russia, people like Trump and his hard rightist fans fucking hate the idea of internationalism. it's hardly so black and white.

Oh well let's just throw it away then, because being totally isolated in the world is better. And how many times have leftists tried to throw away existing institutions and work from the ground up and it turns out great? Not to mention the party in power is THE FUCKING TORIES. Yeah true heroes of the working class there. It's either Brussels or Westminster? I pick Brussels right now.

You claim to be a Marxist when you'll jump on any populist fad because it feels edgy? Restarting the Northern Ireland conflict wouldn't be good for anyone, I'm not opposed to conflict when it might actually mean something but not petty nationalist squabbles.

Really which is it? Do you want to be the US far right's bitch instead of part of the EU? Or maybe we'll take the third option and hop on the belt road in a reverse Hong Kong kind of situation?

Europe is the only power which MIGHT actually be able to be turned genuinely left wing. If Europe is divided it will be consumed by the US/Russia/China power blocs and all will be lost.

Tbh the best part about all of this is that their entire attempts at social media strategy have no just shat the bed: orgs like these rely on getting the word out through edgy videos popping-up on their TL. With a load of fake ones that can't really work. It is praxis to the T.

Lol so much for Corbyn. So much for the 10d chess. That’s what happens when you discount the working class as a revolutionary force and try to work within the parliamentary system. Only when workers revolt like with the yellow vests can change happen.

did something happen, or..?

apologies, I'm a retard. (can the title be changed back pls)

Would the working class revolutionise themselves out of the EU, or attempt to revolutionise the EU to change it from within.

Oh right only when workers pull a yellow vest can anything happen: so in the meantime we masturbate waiting for the revolt?

Yeah how's that yellow vests thing working out? Jupiter Ascending still in power and refusing to go, people running out of money and having to go back to work soon?… It's been months and nothing achieved. I sympathize with them by god but is that really your example of success?

This shit is hopeless anyway, might as well eat a bullet before having to experience Boris Johnson winning the next GE.pugib

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The working class revolting without any leadership had more of an impact than the 10d chess that Corbyn was pretending to play. The yellow vests is a monumental step in the right direction. What is is now needed is a revolutionary vanguard.

there's a legitimate question to be asked as to whether the vote matters tbf.
i mean territorial legitimacy is always ultimately a bit arbitrary. you can say "oh, it's down to the people who live there", but would that make it legitimate for Britain to reintegrate Ireland as a whole by shipping 5 million Britons into the Irish Republic and having them swing a vote on reunification with the UK? What if we waited a generation first? Two? Three? It's a stupid example, but the principle is pretty sound. If you're going to say "No, Ireland is fundamentally ireland" then a referendum that includes the British people who happen to be occupying it isn't of particular relevance.
don't know why i'm doing this i don't really want to have an argument about the Irish border it's just that the wider question of legitimacy is interesting

Brussels is dominated by the European People's Party (i.e. the European tories.) though. The President of the European Council, President of the European Commission and the President of the European Parliament are all from the EPP and the EPP is pretty substantially represented at all levels.

this is why Britain should leave tbh. Britain is and always has been a right-wing influence on the development of the EU. Even under Corbyn it is inherently in our character that we'll fuck the project up.
basically for me it's a centre-left, left-third-wayish or dirigiste European Superstate with Britain as a left-wing satellite, rather than the status quo of Britain as a satellite of the right-wing USA and a backdoor entryist for US influence in the EU.

This page should be fucking flamed imo.

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There should be a Prager U UK tbh

LOOOOOL
What should I do?

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are you pretending to be a TP UK'er?

yes

Wait did you set-up a fake TP-Edinburgh account?
Also tbh, I would just try to milk information from them.

(me)
Actually don't do that, instead try to appear legit and build interest, while slowly showing them things they've done. Crescendo with the fact that the org was founded because Charlie Kirk didn't get into uni and he blamed black people for it.

get them to say something endorsing/supportive of TPUSA (given it's a running joke) then share it in a few days or whatever once they're onto you
doesn't have to be massive you can probably do it with an easy leading question like "are you familiar with the work of our US branch?" or something like that.

twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1091774831899697152

Looks like Corbyn's Labour is dying out and the Tories are getting ahead.

I'm less pessimistic about the UK, but more about the EU (the Far-Right bloc in the EU parliament's going to overtake the third way/social democratic bloc after the next elections).

Honestly though, I'm deeply suspect of any left-wingers who voted Leave in 2016, but more so of anyone who claims to be on the left now but wants to re-enter the EU after March.

One poll that's a major outlier and everyone shits the bed.

I didn't sense aggression like you get in bigger chav towns. They just see outsiders as like aliens. I just wanted to go to the pub and drink but people just stare at you and it makes me uncomfortable. Even people barging me, crazy people nibbling my ear or absolute units challenging me to arm wrestles in bigger town pubs isn't as unnerving as the unison staring from the bumpkins.

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Care to elaborate as to why? How long have you been involved in Left Politics in the UK? I didn't vote in the Referendum and I wasn't as informed Politically then as I am now (Still a Communist, just a babby one) and I was well aware that there was a serious case for "Lexit" from people much further Left than anyone who would have towed Benn's line.

About 6 years at this point I think, most of that time spent in the CP or Labour.

In short, because Lexit wasn't on the cards in 2016, which is why I dispiritedly voted Remain. The only political groups that were strong enough to influence what was going to happen in terms of the direction of the UK's politics were in the Conservative party, while Labour was a mess (and is still probably not in a state to bring in any sort of Bennite siege economy plan that we'd need if we face the sort of capital flight that are likely to occur).

To put it another way, the arguments for Lexit in abstract are correct, but the timing and strategy is all wrong. The ideal would have been to stay in the EU and wreck it from the inside (ignoring EU laws on state aid, spending, etc.) while building up Britian's economic capacity to leave the single market without causing a small-medium recession, because the EU, as yet, doesn't have a mechanism to expel a member state that doesn't want to go.

As a former member of this tradition, I will say that a lot of of the UK extra-parliamentary Left's thinking on Brexit was woefully lacking at the time, as you can see now with the SWP attempting to make a plausible case for why they supported Leave then, but don't now. Whether that's down to intellectual laziness, apathy or because they didn't actually think Leave would win I'm not sure.

Well since the Brexit thing died down, what is up with Johnathan Pie? His RL actor Tom Walker said on a Channel 4 interview since he wanted to have good conversation yet his twitter feed and videos is just straight up downplaying and shutting down any and every liberal wokeness without any conversation. And his videos regarding that gets RT/shared most often than his Trump/Tories bashing so I am suspecting that right wingers are only using him as a rhetoric piece against woke liberalism. Also his co-writer works for the motherfucking Spectator of all places.

Really?

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Fuck me, you're so fucking stupid it's unbelievable.

If you don't support leaving the EU you're not left wing its simple. The state of areas of the left,

Tbh I'm in the leave camp but I quite like the take in this thread about staying, but just for the purpose of completely shitting the place up and disobeying all the rules because there's no way to kick us out.

If you're in a country pub you need to chat to the barman/maid, ask about the area, show an interest. If you are speaking with the landlord, then jackpot. Then someone will likely buy-in if they hear you talk about so nothing you know and you go from there.
t. Bloke from semi-rural Hertfordshire's.

The ChrisChan Brexit strategy.

Sir Humphrey approves.

Some wankstain smashed-up Marx's grave.

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Kek

No matter. We're stronger than our symbols.
You break a fascist by breaking his icons.

Who cares lol I doubt the man himself would give a shit.

is this the right being the new counter culture

Ok, yeah, I suspected it would be this and I actually agree, most of those who did advocate for such either weren't interested in attempting to bring a coherent plan to the table at the time or they were too fringe to have the ability to, not to mention that I don't think there was a large enough contingent in the Labour Party that would have supported it, I just wanted to know whether your opposition to it was ideological or strategic. Ironically I think that Labour is much better oriented to attempt such a thing now but I don't see it on the cards given the recent actions. My problem with this entire thing on either side is that fundamanentally no matter what happens the impact of Brexit in comparison to that of the next Recession is going to be several orders of magnitude smaller and that this is going to happen much quicker than any Left party or organization is going to be able to insulate against, because the mechanisms for such need to be much larger than they would for dealing with Brexit in either way that's proposed. Honestly I think anyone who is overly concerned with Brexit outside of within a tactical framework for Parliamentary rhetoric is sort of missing the forest for the trees and more work should be being done to ensure that Brexit plays second fiddle to the next Crisis and that they're not intertwined in culpability for each other.

The most likely outcome (assuming Labour was in power) is Single Market and Customs Union membership, no? In which case I don't see what the point of the entire endeavour was from a left perspective.

Agreed.

mobile.twitter.com/dsquareddigest/status/1092808365548466178
The BBC actively shilling for TP now…

youtube.com/watch?v=3DeSyMhl2d8

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freedomnews.org.uk/manchester-union-picket-attacked-by-fascists/
Fucking Tommythugs attack an RMT picket…

Which is why Irish nationalism is fucking spooky reactionism. Northern Ireland includes the Brits, it doesn't matter whether you like it or not. Disqualifying people from a vote because of what happened 400 years ago is bunker on head retarded.

Lol if I was gonna go deface Maggie's grave or something I would make sure to bring something powerful enough to break it in two.

I know the original footage from the first is soviet and tbh that doesn't fit the aesthetic I would think of, needs something more like this:
youtu.be/u4n_kfmF2jk?t=171
"Roy Jenkins, Autonomist" made me kek though.
What was missing was the classic Themes theme though.

Tbh they had to put Grantham's Maggie statue on a 10ft plinth.
thesun.co.uk/news/8320950/new-300k-maggie-thatcher-statue-to-be-on-a-10ft-platform-to-keep-out-of-reach-of-vandals/

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That's what I mean, if I was going to do it I would use a bulldozer instead. Where would I get a bulldozer, I dunno, but if I don't have one I wouldn't even try.

I can just picture the skinnyfat faggot getting more and more disheartened, swinging until his head is dizzy and painful and his arms are aching then staggering off defeated. Haha. Twat. Something like the 'plastic sign' guy but even more pathetic.

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what about just getting a ladder?

Nothing less awkward than putting up a 10ft ladder in the middle of a public park to vandalise something.

in the age of the drone this seems weirdly pointless
i mean i guess it stops people smashing it but covering it in paint must be easier and less risky than taking a selfie with a statue of someone people actually like.

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but who would stop you though?

...

if all the cops are watching the statue nobody's watching her grave
just saying

...

Well yeah as much as I'm ideologically opposed to EU membership because it's an institution borne of Capitalist power consolidation, Competition and Imperialist interests that can never be reformed, it was essentially thrust upon the public at a moment whereby the Parliamentary Left wasn't prepared for it and that this is essentially the only outcome that could feasibly happen.

The issue is just as it has been for the entire time walking the tightrope of Bourgeois politics to ensure that you're not the one holding the bomb when it goes off, and this is just something you have to accept when it comes to using any kind of Electoral Strategy. Fence sitting with the implication that you'd "do it better" is about as much as Labour can muster right about now; they could pivot towards full ideological support for the party but all of the votes from the apolitical sectors of the working class who wish for brexit that would be gained would be lost from the Metropolitan Labour areas support remain. It may turn out with more votes overall but it's difficult to predict because it would hinge on the believability of such a move. It would be viciously attacked as an opportunist move in the media both on ideological & partisan grounds as simply rhetoric and you would be required to essentially cut off your nose to spite your face by taking a harder Brexit than is being threatened right now. If you win an Election off the back of that you're left with an immense task to rebuild the country whilst resisting what would amount to regime change from the international bourgeoisie. And then if you're in power whilst the next Crisis hits it will be perceived as Labour's mismanagement of Brexit, essentially killing them as a party and saving the Tories from their own incompetence whilst dooming the British Working class to becoming a Client state of the US whilst all of the public institutions are dismantled, wages & working conditions are devastated etc. etc.

It does seem that the only way to salvage such a situation would be to pivot away from Brexit, keeping a distance until the Tories resolve a shitty deal and then eventually sweeping into power and essentially sabotaging the institution of the EU from the inside whilst demostrating how hostile the EU is to the interests of the Working Class as a whole. It will then depend on how the Global Crisis impacts the EU itself as to further recourse.

Naturally this is a vague and incoherent outline but it's pretty much what I see as the only course for the Parliamentary Left in the UK given the timeline of events over the past few years. As to the role of the Communists & Anarchists existing outside of Parliamentary Politics I believe they need to act as a foil to the Parliamentary Left at this given moment in time, adapting to their failures and successes with rapid flexibility, but that's a whole other conversation as to the measure of collaboration between them.

WOW WHAT A SURPRISE IT TURNS OUT THE REAL TARGETS OF FASCISTS ARE ORGANIZED SECTIONS OF THE WORKING CLASS WHO COULD HAVE EVER PREDICTED THIS IT'S NOT LIKE THE BNP & EDL DIDN'T SPEND MOST OF THEIR TIME ATTACKING COMMUNISTS & TRADE UNIONS OR ANYTHING IS IT???

Its only natural that a good deal of people who joined to vote in the leadership election or in the whirlwind of the GE just don't bother or care to pay their membership fee and tune out and we can except several thousand more to do so over the coming months, its small change however and the retention is rather good given the party membership was less than half what it is now before Corbyn, and we may well get another, probably not quite so great, boost in membership when the next election campaign starts.
Opportunistic tabloid and beeb hacks just jumping on literally anything to convince the world that ackshually corbyn is deeply unpopular with labour members, a something they hope will become true if they say it enough times.
Wish someone would run the figures on the tories' non-existent party membership and how it dwindles at an accelerated pace every winter.

This is great news. Workers are realizing that the bourgeois political parties are not viable vehicles for advancing their interests. I fully expect there to be strikes outside the grip of the labor unions and in this struggle it will be clearly revealed that Corbyn does not stand for the interests of the working class and is rather a sheepdog.

I don't neccessarily disagree with you but you sound exactly like a Salty Trot right now and I think you should put your flag back on.

tbh sounds more like a cpgbml-tard about to call corbyn a social fascist imperialist

Workers are being presented by no decent option by both the Tories and Corbyn's party and this is what matters?

Inb4 they're from the Neo-SDP.

me when the labour membership number goes up: it's just arrogant students, the real workers know better than to join a party of self-interested bourgeois and malicious social fascists
me when the labour membership goes down: the workers have realised that they can achieve nothing within a party of self-interested bourgeois and malicious social fascists

t. me, JIM SILLARS.
[spoiler]*taps glass* ahem[spoiler]
FUCK ALEX SALMOND and FUCK THE EU
VOTE RISE

Lmao shut the fuck up with your concern trolling about someone virtue signalling on an imageboard. If you want to converse about that we can but one liners straight out of the playbook of irrelevant microparties isn't quality analysis or discourse so let us not pretend it is.

wait wtf jim sillars was a firefighter
i'm half sure i'd heard that before but it's not exactly the first occupation to come to mind for a politician, particularly not a politician with a track record of burning things down.

What is a decent option, what is indecent about Labour's 'option' and what do the workers right now want in your view?

Yeah I just joined to vote Corbyn and didn't bother with keeping up my subscription.

Hacks should go kill themselves, they contribute nothing to society

If 48% voted remain and a sizeable number of people now regret being pro-Brexit because of the shambles it is, surely a 'decent option' or 'what the workers want' is to remain in the EU, perhaps for it to be reformed, but it's certainly not an ill-defined 'left Brexit' that Corbyn hasn't even spoken out in favour of.

What is your profession and background lad, just curious, esp considering your flag

Who let this EU apologist onto this board?

The EU is controlled by neoliberals and the Euro itself is a tool of German imperialism. Every sane leftist who has analyzed the situation rationally wants to break free from it, from Corbyn to Melenchon to Popular Unity in Greece. It cannot be reformed. It is literally inscribed into the EU founding treaties that you cannot carry out deficit spending above a certain level, and the whole point of free movement of labor is to drive down wages. Austerity and the shrinking of socdem protections is the only purpose the EU serves.

I guess the libdems were the revolutionary vanguard all along, we should've never doubted

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leftism isn't about what the workers want, it's about what the workers ought to have. well for marxist analysis it's more "what they will deliver" but you quickly proxy that into what they ought to have.

nah that's only true for the eurozone. britain could double spending tomorrow with no tax increases and the EU couldn't do much more than send us a document suggesting that a 100% budget deficit lacks good precedent.

Then why is the UK still signed onto the Maastricht Treaty according to the BBC? It is still enforceable according to EU law.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/europe/euro-glossary/1216944.stm

I think the user is referring to the Euro compact over deficit spending.

because the Maastricht Treaty, like all European treaties, is a big long confusing tome of a thing.
but basically the Maastricht criteria are the Euro convergence criteria, they only define the conditions and requirements of becoming and being a Eurozone member. If, like Britain, you have an opt out and make use of it, or like Sweden are notionally supposed to join the Euro at some point but can just intentionally fail the criteria by never joining ERM2, you can basically ignore it.

I can't think of a comical analogy so here's a wikipedia article for people who want something to click:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty#The_Maastricht_criteria

Nah the European Fiscal Compact/Stability compact/etc is a different thing that also has nothing to do with us and means bad times for Eurozone members. (but then that's the only kind of time available for Eurozone members.)

Oh I thought you were talking about deficit limitations, which for eurozone states comes from that.