Haiti Protests

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www-m.cnn.com/2019/02/15/americas/haiti-protests-against-jovenel-moise/index.html?r=https://t.co/kk6SqdZ59z

I give him a month before he gets hanged

I hope so. The more troubling part of the article is that there are 20 US Marines there officially.

Haiti is a shithole because of capitalism

This, the world couldn't handle Haiti when she was alternating between kings and emperors, they haven't stopped punishing the country since 1803

Dessalines implemented juche and he got killed pretty quickly

Haiti is a shithole because of haitians

It's not just Capitalism. It's a victim of Imperialism; in fact its probably the biggest victim in the world. It's been going on for as long as anyone has been alive. Descriptions of Imperial action towards Haiti are described using verbs that are not usually used. Punitive, and deliberately harmful and cruel.

Yeah because chewing sugarcane and playing soccer ruins your economy, not the whole imperialist world literally being against you for idpol reasons

Mild take: neither imperialism, nor muh epic race realism explains the poverty of Haiti adequately. There are other countries who have probably been fucked as hard or harder than Haiti that have done a better job of developing than Haiti.

Ofc, imperialism has played a negative role but imo the biggest problem is that Haiti is the only majority peasant society in the Western Hemisphere. Its development profile is similar to other countries with a strong residual element of feudalism/petty-commodity production, ex. India, Bangladesh, large swathes of subsaharan Africa etc.

Haiti has medieval-tier poverty because the majority of people live in medieval conditions. Like most countries with a large peasantry it has shitty wages because employers assume a workers family will help subsidize them; the population at large is used to low standard of living associated with peasant agriculture, so social expectations are lower and you can always employ some new migrant from the countryside if your workers raise too much of a fuss.

The rest of Latin America is actually better off because the peasantry was transformed into a proletariat at an earlier date. In fact, most of Latin America got their independence later and the peasants/slaves had less freedom and were emancipated later than was the case in Haiti. Also they've also largely been fucked by imperialism post-independence though arguably not as badly. Haiti also is comparatively poor in resources and living space in comparison to other Latin countries.

Right except for the massive fact that that is only because of imperialism. Haiti had enormous wealth and the means to develop and sell it as any other bourgeois country at the time of its initial independence, it was imperial European countries and the US terrified of the precedent of a formerly colonized non-Euro country doing the same thing they were since what they were doing would be unsustainable without labor at those ends of the empire. It may be a bit right to say that Haiti's poverty and failure isnt because of capitalism, but it's absolutely because of imperialism, it's initial failure was an imperialist crushing of its enormous potential for capital development.

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So Albania after WWII?

Could Cuba intervene militarily?

In theory, I can't imagine the US wouldn't try something really stupid in response, back in the 70s and 80s Cuba was the devil for sending troops to help the MPLA and the Sandanistas, and now I'm not sure either Russia or China are the deterrents against outright invasion that the USSR was

Don’t forget them being terrified at the idea of a successful slave revolt and a country run by blacks.

People's Republic of Haiti when? I'm sure Cuba would help them

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Of course they would, all of Latin America owes its independence to Haiti and her revolutionary legacy

Eh, in a way that's true. Its main exports around the time of the Revolution were sugar and cotton. Like many other slave-societies (Roman Empire, American South, Brazil etc.) it produced fabulous wealth for a time but once slavery was overthrown/collapsed the nation fell into poverty. It did not discover methods of production that could allow it to build on its previous successes in cotton/sugar and successfully compete with other nations/colonies that still used slave-labor. Even this doesn't really explain it since successful cotton and sugar producers in the colonial world and elsewhere did arise that used free-labor and many of these nations/regions are more successful than Haiti.

It was potentially the case that even if Haiti couldn't compete in sugar/cotton then it could specialize in some other lucrative field of agriculture/industry. But, most of the capital of the island was either destroyed or fled the island, however, it wouldn't be true to say this meant they had no means of doing it–there still remained a narrow class of mulattos and some surviving whites that had capital resources at hand although hardly vast.

Haitians viewed wage-labor as synonymous with slavery and part of this stemmed from an overly-brutalized but accurate view of things and another part of it can be said to stem from a classical intellectual disdain for labor that was part of their 18th century revolutionary heritage. Unlike the case in many other post-abolitionist countries, the slaves of Haiti transformed themselves into peasants rather than wage-workers. Although most other examples of abolition provided less liberty (ex.British abolition) it must be admitted that in terms of long-run economic outcome it was more successful.

I have my doubts that Haiti being as small as it is, just had an enormous potential waiting to be unlocked. It's very true that it could have done a lot better than it has but I think perhaps the best case would be that it transformed itself into a black Caribbean Taiwan. It never had the resources or population size to compete with the established capitalist powers. Britain, for instance, probably had more people working in the textile industry than the entire population of Haiti at that time.

The French "reparations" payments definitely bled Haiti of capital resources but having a large punitive foreign debt isn't necessarily a death penalty for development. Likewise, the US invasion of Haiti wasn't done to prevent Haiti from developing but rather to expand the domain of (foreign)capitalism on the island. Foreign capitalist-imperialism is exploitative but it can't be said that it holds back capitalist development, in fact, objectively it encourages it. Even if all the profit destined for capitalist consumption is consumed abroad, doesn't it follow that the capitalist won't still be interested in expanding his foreign holdings as long as its profitable. That leads to the expansion of capital accumulation, to the growth of the proletariat, to wage-growth at a certain point and numerous knock-on effects.

With the case of Haiti we actually have the remarkable example of another country located on the same island. The Dominican Republic is more successful than Haiti in developmental terms.

*it doesn't follow that the capitalist…

Good post. I always cringe at this glib and sentimental argument posted here and elsewhere that Imperialism is this transhistorical (or maybe ahistorical) force capable of steadily crushing a country for centuries. It is not. Haiti had ups and downs and to treat the French reparations and debt as some kind of original sin that extends to the present is a ridiculous and lazy deus ex machina for those too intellectually lazy to study haitian history on between now 1818 and the present. I cant say that ive studied haitian history either but I do know that its economy in the nineteenth century actually didn’t diverge so much from typical latin american countries

Good post, I appreciate it, but

That is much, much better than its current position. And yeah the emphasis on an agricultural peasantry was definitely a main hindrance I dont mean to imply that was irrelevant, but at least it could have been a somewhat stable feudal state which it never got the chance to be. And 19th and 20th century capitalist intervention WAS contrary to capitalist development, because that intervention was meant to ensure an extractive hegemony that served to develop productive forces in the imperialist countries, not in Haiti. At best they get infrastructure for more efficient extraction (some decently maintained roads, a port, a railroad, etc) like we see in African countries, but no real industrial development. I'm not at all saying that Haiti could have become competitive with Britian or France or the US and that there was infinite untapped potential stopped only by evil whitey, I'm saying that Haiti had serious potential to be a historically liberatory bourgeois republic that could look more like Calcutta than Congo.

How the fuck is it not? Yeah clearly it's just glib liberal sentimentalism that the Ashanti and Quecha nations are crushed and sidelined by imperialism.

I am not saying Haiti would have been Wakanda, I'm saying that with a great power of the time giving it some degree of protection or just actually trading with it it could have been a relatively prosperous trade republic and laid similar infrastructure to former colonial nations like the US and Canada (albeit obviously on a much smaller scale with more minor potential)

And Im saying that DID happen to an extent. France was Haitis patron much as it is post independence africa. All its elite remained francophone and francophile despite the independence struggle, which tends to obscure this because of the expulsion and killing of white frenchmen. Haiti was much like a Latin American banana republic and experienced roughly similar growth to other central and south American countries that didnt diverge from the norm in the 19th century. I propose that this divergence only came about in the late 20th century or a little earlier.
The plantation economy could and did coexist with the subsistence oeasant economy but this was no different from other countries in the region too. Mass expulsion of peasants if im not mistaken only came later in Haiti and other countries as labdlords consolidated bigger estates. The method of extraction was imperialist but it was not a uniform pattern or can all be qualified under some abstract title of imperialism. We cant underestimate the complicity of elites to invite collaborate and perhaps instrumentalize foreign capital to their own economic or nationalist ends. Other times they served as merely as no more than a comprador which was aides by immigration of foreigners into the caribbean basin (Germans for example formed a huge proportion of labdowbing families in Central America)

Also this raises greater questions of development, uneven development and the so called development of underdevelopment, as infrastructure and port projects were indeed constructed all over the 19th century caribbean and south american countries such as peru, and mexico with british foreign capital among others (notably panama canal was attempted by a French firm by the same guy who built Suez but whose corruption caused a huge political crisis in France)

Anyway the end result is not Haiti or the ither Caribvean and centeal american nations have become prosperous trade republics by any notion and the only succesfful ones are those that have oil, natural resources (jamaicanhad bauxite till that ran out) or financial tax haven shit (panama, which also has its canal)

Haiti it practically a fiefdom of the Clintons'. It's massively fucked.

rt.com/news/451673-haiti-putin-burning-us-flag/
The Nazbol gang is en marche

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Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. The USA is gonna have to deal with Russia sooner or later.

FUCKING WEIRD SHIT BROS

Americans, reportedly heavily armed, detained amid Haiti unrest
cbsnews.com/news/haiti-americans-weapons-detained-us-confirms-protests-president-jovenel-moise/
State Department reacts to reported arrests of Americans in Haiti
foxnews.com/world/state-department-responds-to-reports-5-americans-arrested-haiti

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Honestly the US population will have to go through some serious reeducation.

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No, being populated entirely by niggers ruins your economy. There's a reason that niggers were still chasing wildebeests with pointy sticks when whites discovered them. Niggers don't have the cranial capacity to operate a modern society. They don't even have the brains not to genocide their French masters so that they can participate in modern society.

Surely you can be a leftist but still acknowledge the reality of Haiti?

Fascinating theory shit for brains. The revolution still makes faggot honkeys like you ass hurt forever. All slavers deserve death, Dessalines did nothing wrong.

youtu.be/i9ypPCM_wTA
It's in spanish, 10 gringos desestabilizadores in cop custody. I don't know if someone can put it in english.

Well…didn't read that.
Al menos lo publique en español.

Gringo is a name Mexicans call white people.

Go back to Zig Forums jackass

eek

Hello there gulaged person my comrade here misspoke. What he meant to say was you're quite welcome over on >>>Zig Forums where you can freely post things like that to your hearts content

Americans arrested in Haiti with arsenal of guns won’t face U.S. charges
miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article226572869.html

bumping this

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