An user in another thread inspired me to make this post.
So, where to start? The USA were founded by (mostly) descendants of religious fanatics that were also early modern capitalists, especially slave owners. So the rich slave owning elite decided to found a republic by the rich for the rich, but talking about liberty etc. as universal freedoms for all. In the Declaration of Independence the 3 main goals even were: the right to life, freedom and the pursuit of happiness. In the Bill of Rights (which is the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution) all of this is put to the background and protecting private property becomes the most important point. It is also worth mentioning that the word democracy doesn't appear anywhere in the U.S. constitution, neither does it appear in any of the states' constitutions. James Madison himself famously said that the main function of government is the protection of the rich minority from the "pleb" or poor majority which would want a more equal distribution of wealth. The system that the "founding fathers" (slave owners, war profiteers etc.) put up worked great and still kind of does. The USA was able to build so much wealth and power that they can afford to spend as much on military as the next 20 countries combined and it only represents like 3 or something % of the U.S. GDP. Small cracks happened when the labor movement was strong in the 10's 20's and 30's, but they were all dealt with. Some cracks started to show again after 2001 and especially 2008, but no one really can say what the future will bring. The only major development that is different this time around is the resurgence of China - China was the leading world empire and richest country for around 2000 years, but even the divided Chinese empires were far richer than most states around the globe at the time. China started to lose it in the middle of the 19th century when they lost the Opium wars and when the Boxer rebellion failed. But now they are back, ready to take the leading role after a century of humiliations. The only problem is that U.S. porky won't go into the night without a big bang in the form of nuclear detonations. And back to the point of the topic - how can anyone prevent this? Is cutting up the U.S.A. into several countries a feasible idea and how could it be achieved? But the nuclear arsenal would still be there and someone would still hold on to the trigger. At least in case of civil war they would drop them on each other …. Maybe another solution is that China incorporates US porky into their empire and keeps them nice and fat. They would become complacent and wouldn't put up a fight if the retained their powers and then CPC could move in for the slaughter.
How do you feel about regional separatist movements? Good idea or not?
Juan Jackson
"Balkanisation" is a great way to weaken a country. The "Western" powers already know this. This is why the UK supports separatist movements around the world, like Kosovo, but then denies that same right to the Scottish people. Yugoslavia was a strong country that broke up into six weak ones. Yes, breaking up a country does make it weaker. That is why regional separatist movements and secession movements will never be allowed to succeed in the United States, save during or in the aftermath of a civil war.
Ryder Cox
If you dismantle the military-industrial complex you dismantle USA
Brandon Wood
It's a huge meme. Despite fairly significant cultural differences between different regions of the country, the vast majority of Americans have no interest in separating, even those in states like Texas and Vermont which have actual histories of being independent countries. Even as reactionary as Americans are you'd still probably have an easier time convincing us to overthrow the government and create a USSA.
Jeremiah Diaz
Sure. But what can be done to achieve this goal? Civil war? And how could a civil war even be provoked in the USA? Maybe if Republicans go full on retard and grant dictatorial powers to their next president?
Sebastian Martin
Is this US-EU trade war a good thing?
Jonathan Russell
Rolled 6, 6, 5, 2, 5, 4, 3 + 7 = 38 (7d7) Sectionalization: A customized form of Balkanization with extras. After The Former USA is revamped and rebuilt…we can continue with the plan to create The New Confederate States of America. Only "True Nation-States" that have had all of their inner territories conform, barter, bank, and overhaul themselves into a collective of powerful and efficient City-States will be allowed to join The New CSA. America will be restored to its former glory and beyond…even allowing overseas Nation-States into the fold.
The Kingdom of Serbia will rise again in tandem. Sorry yugoslut, but you'll have to get really good unless you want to be treated like another kebab. All are welcome…even you.
Juan Peterson
Until the 16th century, the Low Countries – corresponding roughly to the present-day Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg – consisted of a number of duchies, counties, and prince-bishoprics, almost all of which were under the supremacy of the Holy Roman Empire.
Today Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg are some of the wealthiest, most productive, highest standard of living, most socially liberal, most educated, etc countries in the world. They are also some of the smallest geographically.
They didn't need to be one single Low Country, nor a part of an empire to be successful.
Hudson Morris
No, they just needed a bunch of colonies from which to extract free resources and labour. The Netherlands had the East India company and islands in the West Indies, Belgium had the Congo. Don't be dishonest.
Wyatt Harris
Bad idea. Despite popular belief on this board, socialism is not when you replace American capital with Chinese capital and divide the world into a million squabbling nationalities. I gotta hand it to the BO though, it was no small achievement to take a board who once believed socialism was solidarity and warp into into one that now thinks it is revanchism and tribalist warfare.
Gabriel Kelly
LARP THREAD
Hunter Lewis
But who will be king?
wtf I love American imperialism now
Grayson Ross
wtf I love Chinese imperialism now. Jesus this board is dead
Jacob Edwards
You faggots just prove those autistic anti-a-mericans right with how much you shill for your shithole country
Josiah Hughes
Schizo post
Michael Ward
You clearly are one of those autistic anti-capitalists dude, don't pretend otherwise. No one here is shilling for American imperial dominance. If we were, that would make us no better than you, a bourgeois-nationalist shill who wants to see his favorite countries rule at the expense of the rest of the world.
Quit pretending that you're a socialist and take your autistic border-drawing and LARP threads off to Zig Forums.
Cameron Reyes
Better yet, tell him to fuck off Zig Forums, that’s where his kind truly belongs
Parker Thompson
Russia knows that the best way to do this and it is to support fascist groups and increase racial tensions in the USA. A full blown civil war would absolutely cripple them unlike in Europe where refugees are not armed to the teeth.
Gavin Young
support white nationalists if you wish the balkanize the usa and overthrow ZOG Occupied Government
Robert Harris
Tbh, the founding of the US was genuinely idealistic to enough extent that there was room for things to get worse in some respects - corporations in the early US were extremely restricted, for instance. The American revolution was a genuinely positive event.
But whatever. Wrt splitting the US, Dugin was probably right - Idpol is the way to go. Obviously it hasn't destroyed the country yet, but sure - if you want cheap division, push racial supremacy.
Luke Russell
There was a Fascist in Scotland (One of those DEFEND SCOTLAND) who said he wants the place to be like after WW1 where Communists and Fascists battled each other on the streets.
James Morgan
But yeah. I think this is why Russia started supporting Fascists, because Fascists *always* lose.
Nicholas Wright
Keep motivating Americans to vote radical republicans, and make them implement every libertarian policy in existence. America will crumble. voting socdem in America is like putting it on life support
Do a socialist coup, make sure to take over the nuclear missiles first, and if the coup fails, at lest you have them, and than let them start flying.
Asher Morgan
Here’s what people need to understand, America won’t balkanize like Yugoslavia or the USSR because America doesn’t have regional languages. When the USSR and Yugoslavia broke up, they broke up among linguistic lines. Because all Americans speak English, America won’t balkanize. Weather America goes fascist, communist, or whatever, America will remain united. In fact it’s more likely for the Western hemisphere to unight than for America to break up. Instead of larping why don’t you guys start agitating for a communist movement, and those that livening America convince those you know to be communist instead of larping about self destruction.
Carter Barnes
Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian are basically the same language. Those people broke up along religious lines. But I agree with your general point that this thread is just wishful thinking.
Jaxon Miller
Kill Hollywood.
Not literally, but bankrupt it. Pirate any of that garbage you MUST see.
Starve the capitalists of capital and it collapses.
Lincoln Carter
NAZBOL GANG IN THE HOUSE TONIGHT
Jaxon Moore
The real data we need is median income in PPP but I can't find it. Closest I've found is average income in PPP. Looking at the top 30 countries. 19 of them our countries with less than ~10m people.
And in addition, I think everyone already knows, that the most populous countries in the world are mostly some of the poorest countries in the world. More to the point, that being a giant ass conglomeration of various groups of people is doing nothing to improve their livelihood's and "balkanizing" could likely help many of them.
To get more on topic: I think the best way to divide the USA would be to convince people that a dissolution would benefit them personally, which think is absolutely true for the non-dead weight states(which is where we've already seen secessionist movements: California, Texas, and Washington)
How would it be? There's too many Americans that would never go along with it, if a communist government were somehow able to take power it would send the country into a never ending state of civil war.
Nathaniel Edwards
As opposed to all the Americans who would cheerfully go along with balkanization? Seriously, I get that Americans are overwhelmingly anticommunist but there is no actual separatist movement in this country.
Angel Perez
There's no communist movement either. The irreconcilable differences are more likely to lead to some kind of split than to a rewrite of the holy words of the constitution written by our founding daddies.
Cameron Ross
Which are what?
Aaron Foster
Just type "America+divided" into google and you'll find more words written on this subject than you can possibly read.
First off:
This is a big ass bomb waiting to go off. The disproportionate representation that should never have existed in the first place will only grow more and more disproportionate as the population increases.
Same situation as the senate. A citizen of Wyoming has 68.46 more voting power in a state ratifying convention.
Eventually the productive and populous states will say enough is enough and a secessionist movement will succeed.
You can read about the rest on google like I said.
Dylan Ward
I gave you my case. Now give me your case for communism with the constitution being as it is.
Elijah Smith
The USA might never seperate "Officially" but it could be severly weakened by playing on "States Rights". The movement of power from the central government to the states could achieve the exact same purpose and is significantly more possible
Jack Lee
Presumably if we had a communist revolution we'd draft an entirely different constitution. I don't see how the fact that the US is reactionary is relevant to a hypothetical future socialist country.
Adam Mitchell
So you're telling me a communist insurrection or coup is more believable than one state deciding to leave and the rest of the states letting them? Like I said before even if a communist government came to power the country would enter a civil war that the communist powers could not win. I find it highly more likely the other states would let California leave in some form seeing how they already hate California and would only hate it more for leaving. They honestly think they'd be better off without them and I think when California realized they'd be better off without the federal government things will start to happen.
James Butler
* for seriously asking to leave.
Also this:
Some form of separation. Maybe a new class of "territory" or completely new term. One which they aren't at the whim of a small population of people in the welfare states.
Christian Gutierrez
I think both are extremely unlikely at this time but it's possible we'll see an economic crash on par with the Great Depression and it will significantly raise class consciousness. California is by far the richest state in the country, there's no way they'd be allowed to secede barring an outright civil war. But seriously, how often do countries just let parts secede? Look at Quebec in the 70s or Catalonia recently.
William Ramirez
The welfare states are really that retarded. On wikipedia:
All they would need is a constitutional amendment could be passed allowing it. The retarded welfare states with their increased voting power would rather see California gone (Especially after the 2020 census comes out and California becomes officially minority white and plurality latino) and such an amendment could get to a 3/4 ratification.
For the time being Puerto Rico and DC becoming states is more likely than California seceding but give it another decade or two as this shit only get's progressively more crazy and the liberals and conservatives lose all hope in imposing their views on one another.
Owen Nelson
Every time there is a bit of social unrest in the US, all they do is manufacture a foreign enemy to blame everything on or start another war to distract their citizens. The US has to somehow become economically blockaded from the rest of the world or rendered irrelevant for their power to be quickly diminished. The thing is, they're already slowly eating themselves alive by dumbing down their education system and culture, shipping jobs overseas, allowing their real estate markets to continue to be unregulated so none of their younger generations could own a home let alone ever pay off a mortgage, and not have a healthcare system that cares for even their most productive workers for them to remain alive and healthy. We're seeing the last gasps of a dying empire.
This is why you don't add word filters retards. Z.ogby* It's a fucking company.
Zachary Murphy
As an American, should I be agitating for regional seperatism?
John Ortiz
Am doing it, just not in America, as I live thousands of kilometers away. Also, "agitating for a communist movement" in America is like trying to make the ocean bigger by spitting in it.
Blake Gonzalez
Yes, by pointing out the disproportionate voting power people in Wyoming (or another shit one) have, in comparison to NY, Cali, Pennsylvania etc. Or on the other hand you could point out to people that "muh founding fathers" were a bunch of slave owning criminals.
Brayden Wood
This is good and spreading awareness about this would help push for a movement to abolish the Senate. Unfortunately, you naively propose to waste energy that could be used for this excellent cause on a useless one of promoting petty regional tribalism.
You're simply not thinking like a socialist. A movement to abolish the Senate would bring people together and foment pro-democratic sentiment in the USA. Your proposals are entirely counter-productive and reactionary to this end. It is hard to overstate how naive you are. Literally every child learns this in school. Personality cults of dead Presidents lay largely within the domain of historians, nobody else cares. You're very out-of-touch to think this boring statement would have any impact at all on anyone in the USA.
Never talked about socialism. It is about disrupting the everyday workings in the USA to create conditions that may actually lead to a socialist movement. Currently, this is impossible. Also, the second point. O.K. I get that, but then it is strange that a lot of Americans support the current system as it is (muh perfect founding fathers and the brilliant system they put up), when said system was actually built by rich guys for protecting fellow rich guys.
Andrew Peterson
Regionalism is the most reactionary shit on Earth, especially here where in some states it may be associated with the late CSA. Using it to shake up the system is like giving free arms and ammunition to fascists. What you're effectively saying with this strategy of yours is that regional nationalism is some kind of entry point to socialist internationalism. I don't buy that for a second. Every second spent turning workers against each other is a second that could have been spent organizing a union. Socialism has only been dead for a few decades. The states rights movement has been dead since 1865. You sound like you're just looking for an excuse to tell workers not to organize.
Jeremiah King
I started this thread to spark a debate, not to offer my definitive views on what I think should happen, just talking about different scenarios. Yes, cutting up a big country is always risky, but I don't see how it should 100 % lead to fascism. Sure, in the bible belt it probably would, but in Cali, Oregon, Washington, even Vermont (that has a very interesting political system). And I am thinking in this direction purely because I don't see a possibility that any real leftist could gain power on the federal level. No nation-wide leftist party could emerge to beat the Dems and the Reps imo. But it could on a more local level. No, I do not see it as an entry point to socialist internationalism. I only see it as a means to destroy the current status quo because only this will level the playing field and offer the possibility of different things to emerge. And yes, they could be bad. And this is what the liberals are always yelling about - we cannot change or destroy capitalism because anything else could be even worse. And when/if a big change was to happen, civil war would be inevitable imo. And those left standing would then be able to build something different from what exists today. Socialism never really existed in the USA. The labor movement had its peak in the 30s, but everyone was quickly dealt with after the war.
Robert Rivera
Ron Paul could've saved us…
Brody Hernandez
There’s less communist than separatists in the general population and in the military. Also when you look at the trends Communist ideology has room for growth as America looses it’s position as the leading imperial power. I doubt loosing the position as the leading Imperial power will make American separatist, if anything it’ll make them even more nationalist than they already are.
no because most of the natural resources, labor, food, and in some cases water comes from the less populated states.
right now both are super unlikely, but the chases for a communist revolution/coup can grow as America loses it’s position as the dominate Imperial power. While succession won’t. The reality is that all states are hyper economical dependent on trade with each other. California might have a good economy and succession might look good on paper, but when you realize that they get all their water from other states their chances of succession aren’t good. What American Communists need to focus on is when America loses it’s position as the dominate Imperial power, start agitating and spreading class consensus now, and wait for then.
Jayden Garcia
Advocating for states rights would be a good shout, get Texas and California to break off, divide the east against the west and the two of them against the south etc
Cameron Garcia
And you think any of those resources end up un California through any other means than private capital exchanging money for them? We dont live in a communist country comrade. There would be no reason they would stop selling because California is a separate country.
Nathan Price
Als.o California is th ed biggest food producer and has the largest labor force.
Alexander Baker
America won’t balkanize because their is no such thing as a “Californian” or “Southern” nation, just regions. When the USSR balkanized it did so into different countries which before the USSR had conceded themselves different nations with a different history. This isn’t true in America. Balkanization is less likely than communism, both now and in the future. And if you were to succeeded in getting a state to leave all you’d get is tanks pouring into said state until it rejoined. The only people who believe otherwise are those who think Americans are incapable of communism.
California is dependent of the rest of the country for water. And Texas is full of immigrants from the rest of the country to leave.
They’d boycott them until they rejoined. And if that didn’t work, invade. Of fruits sure, but not of cereals. most of it is a) from either another part of the country or b) from outside America
This is my view as well. If anything such secessionism would promote "all-American" patriotic sentiments, since it'd become obvious that most US states would be unable to survive as independent countries, and their existence would serve as invitations for foreign countries to send troops to "protect" said "independence."
