What's the proper socialist praxis in regards to language nowadays...

If Panjeet learned some consistent grammar it could be pretty revolutionary imo.

Why push back against something that is almost complete?

English is well on the way to becoming the global second language of

Heh… 'second' language.

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paul mcharmly

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Ideally everyone should know at least two languages. The problem with monolingual cultures like the US is they can end up highly insular and uninformed about the world. If all you know is English, chances are the only cultural influences you are exposed to are American and British. This creates an ignorant and likely closed-minded person.

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Cartoons that only got popular in the west because of bilingual fansubbers and later localized funimation dubs.

anime represents japanese culture as much as my little pony represents american culture

Show bobs and vegana

unsage. Most people in this board literally can't wrap their heads around someone who isn't ultra rich and doesn't have parents from two different countries being able to learn languages other than the ones used where they live, because they can only see it from their perspective of native English speakers, where the vast majority of people have no reason to learn a second language.

Many working class people in countries where English isn't one of the main languages learn it because it gets them better job opportunities, or because they really wanted to know what the storyline of Metal Gear Solid was. Nowadays, they have many ways to learn English for free over the internet.

When did we say it was impossible? You just proved our point about why it's unnecessary - I don't have to learn a second language because I already had the good fortune to be born speaking the global language of culture, finance, science, et cetera. It's not like Anglos are incapable of watching subbed movies or reading books translated, et cetera.

I was thinking of posts in this board saying that English speakers from, say, Argentina must all be white upper-middle class (or higher) people. I used to see them often before, not so much now.

That view bleeds into Esperanto too, some people (not here) think that all Esperanto speakers are "rich 30-something communists with MacBook Pros who go to Starbucks every day" when in reality there are people with all kinds of political views and class. Most speakers have an Indo-European language as their native one, though, and are older than 13.

Colombia would be a better example than Argentina.

Using a language that a large group of people speak natively creates cultural dominance of that group and also disadvantages anyone who is not a native speaker of said language.

Also english is retarded.

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English is a stupid language, fight me anglocuck.

The only reason for English as the international lingua franca is due to the domination by Anglophone countries in the last two centuries. If that dominance ever faltered, so would English's status as lingua franca. People learn English primarily to collaborate in various ways with Brits and Americans.

There's languages out there that have gendered nouns for everything lol.

What a good point, it's exactly like how railway lines have been used for centuries by armies to transport their lethal cargo, therefore we must as socialists go and tear them all up after the revolution. Same with the roads and ports in fact.

in spanish we have a lot more gendered nouns, yeah

What I'm getting at is that the dominance of English is temporary and based on a very specific world order. No Anglo-American dominated world, no English as the lingua franca. In a world where the US and the UK are declining and even minor powers, the status of English will fall.

Russian will be the only accepted language taught and used post-revolution. All other languages will be exterminated for being reactionary.

i can barely speak english as my second language could you fucking not force me to learn the language of mighty soviet leaders.

нет

Yeah, it totally doesn't represent Japanese culture in any way

Theres languages out there that have phonetic spelling rules and regular conjugations and plural forms of words, imagine that.

This, prepare to learn chinese, probably.
Fuck me I hate that language.

Except that its going to take a momentum of its own at this point, simply bu vitrie of getting there first. The only plausible competition is spanish or mandarin at this point. But english is the global labguage of the west and enough peopple are learning it that even another empire wont waste the resources to impose another one

I'm not convinced of this at all. Previously it was only a certain educated class that learned the dominant international language. Now everyone is involved in it. It won't turn around as quickly anymore.

Unfortunately nobody knows them, so oh fucking well.

If it makes you feel better in 1000 years what they call English (or maybe just 'Common') will probably be barely comprehensible to people now and vice versa anyway.

I think a global language and shared Internet would be really important to an international class consciousness.

I think that it would be good to begin learning the language that will be the next dominant power but who will it be? What language is most likely to become the world language?

I think you have to consider technology as a primary factor. Are there native CPUs programmed in a chinese based digital language? How does Chinese or Hindi deal with scientific and chemical names? Do they have separate systems? Could these be imposed and replace English. Would it be worth it? Do drilling and mining computers work without alphanumerics? Will the latin alphabet be relegated to the code of technical workers as it becomes a new underclass below service? Will they be phonetically represented or will the globe have to learn Chinese pictographic characters? Will our new overlords adopt a system like Korean to teach to their subjects? What meaning will be lost if we move away from pictographs? Can this meaning be preserved digitally? Will changing language in this way affect the way we view reality?

It seems by 2050 there will be more Spanish speakers in the US and the Americas in general than English.

There will be more French speakers than anything because of the growth an Africa.

And Hindi will overtake Chinese.

Theres really just Latin, Chinese, and Hindi

Spanish, French, English and German and probably Russian will become one because they are all alphabets.

Hindi and Bengali will be huge and they are both Abugidas so will probably be coded similarly.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_writing_systems

BUt Chinese
汉字
漢字 Logographic 1340[note 3] Chinese (Chinese characters), Japanese (Kanji), Korean (Hanja),[note 4] Vietnamese (Chu Nom), Zhuang (Sawndip), Okinawan (Okinawan), Mulam China, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia (Chinese Malaysians), Japan, South Korea, Indonesia (Chinese Indonesians), Hong Kong
how u get this into the internet and export it globally?

Why do you say Latin? Sure, it's still taught in schools today, but most people don't become fluent. It's never spoken casually either, so what place can it have?

sounds cool

Fair enough

as in the latin alphabet

apparently Chinese and Japanese use latin alphabet input to write characters digitally

Hindi too

so theres no reason they couldn't take over and latin alphabet just becomes international phonetic symbols like Arabic for numerals

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If you want to argue you have to actually make some points dude, what specifically do you not like about the language? And don't give me that pleb-teir "it doesn't have any grammar" nonsense.

As are all dominant languages.
I wouldn't be so sure, there's millions of scientific documents that only exist in English, lots of populations like Australia and Canada aren't suddenly going to switch overnight, and countries like India have taken a major liking to it as a neutral language of government due to the insane amount of recognized languages in the country. Hundreds of years after the remnants of the HRE Latin was still being used as communication, even today it's still used in the medical world cross culturally. English won't just disappear the second America collapses.

This is very simplified, unless the population is small most speakers will still diverge in pronunciation. Go to rural Switzerland and tell me that Hochdeutsch spelling represents what they speak in any way, hell some countries like Norway even have multiple valid spelling systems because of the insane dialect divergence. English can never have truly phonetic spelling because no one would ever agree on it, your asking the impossible for any language spoken by more than a few million people and strict government oversight.
English barely has any conjugation at all, it's probably the least difficult of the European languages (sans Swedish and Norwegian) in terms of verbs.
Literally 99% of all English plurals in in -s/es, and many of the ones that don't are loans from other languages. Every language on the planet has irregularities, learning the dozen or so irregular plurals like man/men and mouse/mice isn't going to stop someone from learning English fluently.

No, literally the entire computer world programs in English with higher-level languages or straight up Machine Code or Binary with low-level applications.
Interesting article about Chinese and chemistry here:
languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=18877
Chinese characters are a hell of a lot more complicated than simple pictographs.
Taiwan has an interesting system called Bopomofo used for teaching little kids.

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I too can win any discussion by calling valid arguments "nonsense".

The spelling reflects the standard language. Hochdeutsch is a literary language. Many languages have a standard form and their spelling reflects it, mostly because the standard form which is used by most urbanites is derived from the writing, but english doesnt have any form that reflects the writing or vice versa.

uh-huh

The fact that this retarded language cannot be bothered to conjugate loanwords in their native manner speaks mountains of its retardation. The fact that english grammar nazis even insist on using greek or latin plural forms is insane.

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Oh btw, explaining to an anglophone why english is stupid is like trying to explain to a fish the concept of not having water.

Except it probably wont, even if accounting for pronunciationdrift over a thousand years, which doesnt have to be too dramatic or large if you look at conservative languages in the world which still resemble their versions 1000 years ago. If a language has a wide base if literature and reference to older vocabulary, spelling and pronunciation, it is unlikely to drift so much from their version 1000 years ago that it is incomprehensible.
But alas, because english doesnt have sensible spelling it will probably be fucking retarded in 200 years anyway, even more than now.

Life isnt dungeons and dragons, idiot.

CPU's are programmed in binary of which assembly isnt even a full fledged language, its just a glorified alias list for numerical codes
The same way every language does, they have their own names.
Yes. Computers dont use the alphabet, they just use binary numbers.
Nope. Chinese has homophones (even with tone) and their characters are used to differentiate them
See above. Also the characters themselves often contain component meanings in their writing, being made up of different more comment elements or character, allowing you to guess their rough meaning even if you have no clue what it means, something you cannot do if you ran into some kind of greek word in english.
If you write phonetically you lose that information since you save less about the specific of the word.
Yes. There are a lot of researchers who think that the language we have learned shapes how we view the world as it structures your brain to treat concepts with certain associations etc.

English has grammar, if it wasn't it wouldn't be a language.
You just chicken and egged yourself.
Which is what makes it so great because the vast differences in dialects are all equally not represented in writing. I don't have to worry about not being able to read a British person's post because it differs to much from my own accent. You're not addressing the core part of my argument: English is simply too diverse for a "standard" spelling. Millions somewhere will either have to develop their own spelling, which would ruin intelligibility between dialects in writing, or be forced to learn a spelling system which matches their speech even less than the current one does.
Wow 6 whole pages out of irregular verbs out of millions of regular ones. Also every language on the planet has irregularities, this isn't unique to English. If you want to look for a perfectly consistent language, you won't find one (not even Esperanto). For someone who claims to speak multiple languages you sure aren't very good at learning them.
You don't conjugate nouns, you decline them. :^)

imagine going into japan thinking it's just like your animus

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who tf even wears that in anime though.

I feel that the more gritty and reality-based anime somewhat fairly represent Japan's terrible work til you die culture.

Welsh should be the global language

Gintama probably.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_publishing_in_China

Today in China, there are more than 8,000 academic journals, of which more than 4,600 can be considered scientific.[1] About 1,400 cover health science (medicine and public health).[2]

Most articles published in English-language scientific journals in China are indexed by Science Citation Index and Engineering Index.[5]

Most scientific journals in China are not published in English, which has meant that much of current scientific development in China is not readily available to non–Chinese-speaking scientists. A large portion of these journals however, also have an abstract in English. In 1999, only 661 Chinese journals were indexed in the international index systems:[6]

Hwyl!

I've been doing some research and thinking on this and Chinese actually seems to be superior and could potentially contain English within it. Chinese characters seem to represent concepts rather than words and are more information dense than alphabet based writing systems and have the ability to code in multiple languages and dialects.

Apparently Japanese Korean and Chinese can all read chinese characters and understand street signs from them even if the spoken languages are different because the symbols represent concepts. Also it seems like latin alphabetical input is already adopted as the digital input globally and no language really has a problem with it. It really makes it feel like alphabets are a "lower level" of communication.

quora.com/Should-China-Korea-and-Japan-switch-to-the-Latin-Roman-alphabet

Emojis have all the advantages you attribute to moon runes and are more legible

for u

and yes and emoji input is very similar to other languages

you type :thinking: or :thi. + tab, or you type th + down down down, and it gives a cross language picture representation.

A global common written language with loanwords from everywhere would be very good and neat. Chinese just happens to be the most widespread with the longest contiguous history.

Learning another language won't benefit me mainly due to geography.I can go nearly a thousand miles in any direction and the primary language will still be English.I already know the government lies constantly, knowing how it does from a foreign perspective doesn't really give me an advantage either.
And since I'm basically living paycheck to paycheck, the odds of me getting to go anywhere a foreign language would actually benefit me are slim to none.

concepts which are not broken down and analyzed become dogma. they're not "superior" in essence. they only can be as long as they come with the education or insight to decompose them.
and words can be concepts too, like "life", "evolution", hell anything.

like in English where words don't contain history or etymology in their characters?

Well you need to do a lot more based on your post.

Except that English has different grammar and word order than the Chinese languages, so a Chinese person who doesn't speak english would not understand what is being written.

They most certainly represent words, as concepts are described with words. Each character also does not represent a single concept, just as how "nail" can refer to a fingernail or a metal nail, many characters are re-used for homophones, not to mention grammatical words that have no meaning outside of linguistic context.

Depends if you're talking about character limit, then yes, but in terms of learnablility, they are much more difficult. I don't the the trade off is worth it.

This wrong, as most Asian languages that use characters have alphabet stand-ins to teach younger kids so they can learn how to pronounce the characters (hiragana, bopomofo, pinyin, etc.) in the first place, so obviously alphabets are an easier system. Also Korean and Vietnamese used to use characters and both switched to alphabet systems quite successfully. Saying that trying to convince everyone in the west to learn thousands of characters is easier than having Asians learn a system with only 26 letters that many already know anyways is fucking ridiculous.

Or you could just use a cigarette with a cross through it, which is already more universal and can be figured out on the fly, rather than a bunch of squiggles that would be indecipherable to anyone who wasn't taught what they meant before hand. lets play a game, without looking it up, would you be able to heed this warning if you spontaneously saw it?: 落石

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Not really. They're a good option for communicating without a common language, but you can see a lot of old people mistake the crying while laughing emoji with a regular crying emoji.

Conjugation, plurals and other things that aren't really accounted for in Chinese would be a bitch too. Just imagine people trying to figure out the pronunciation of irregular verbs in Spanish with Chinese characters.

Not that user, but you can't get around the fact that English pronunciation is wildly inconsitent, even inside of a single dialect. For a non-native speaker, there's generally no way to guess a word's pronunciation from the spelling. That's not a good feature for a global language to have.

Esperanto had a chance in the early 1920s to really become the world language.
It didn't succeed because Stalinist purges and then the lolcaust.

Esperanto is too eurocentric, sort of like the metric system or Christianity. They can't ever really become worldwide phenomenon.

Even if you wanted to recreate a language that was neutral, in terms of not having too much influence from one global region, you would end up with a weird mixture of English, Chinese, Swahili, Arabic, etc. Equally difficult for everyone.

English is the superior language and it spread due to its internal cultural and prosaic merits. A literal Zionist language like Esperanto will never spread in the Arab world. And forcing Africans to learn a eurocentric language would be considered racist by the radlibs.

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???
How the fuck is the metric system culturally burdened? Its not based of any cultural background other than base 10, which is used by almost every major civilisation in the world, as well as arabic/hindu numerals, which are also used worldwide.

pic related

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Except for all of the languages in the worlds that arent analytic languages which includes:

Meanwhile, chinese can be fully written in latin using pinyin, with an almost insignificant loss in precision in the case of homonyms, which are inferable from context like in pretty much any language anyway, because chinese can be spoken with homonyms without any issues hence they arent strictly necessary in writing

Youre retarded and so is that quora question. Chinese characters are very good at encoding chinese langauges, not any other, which is why countries in the sinosphere switched to using a (supplementary) phonetic script instead, like vietname, korea and japan did. Any language can be written in a large enough phonetic script, because all languages are base in speaking, not writing. But you cannot encode all languages in autistically specific scripts like chinese, which only work well because chinese is a fully analytical language, with no form of conjugation of anything.

It pains me

Esperanto is dead your better off promoting English as the worlds lingua franca.
That's the way it's going anyhow what with the large number of Chinese students learning English.

Also learn Latin it will make the romance languages way easier to learn later on.

...

I mean I kind of agree and it would be easier. Vietnam went alphabetical but they lost a lot of cultural history. I also think learning chinese is fun but it does sort of feel like im learning some autistic ocd kings secret code that he made so only the cool kids could read.

but theres always the fact that chinese has over a billion native readers writers far more than any other language and they are set to take over the world with one belt one road. I wouldn't be surprised if french speaking africans start to learn chinese and a lot of eastern russia, mongolia, *stans already uses chinese characters

I didnt say chinese has to be written in a phonetic script, just that it can be written and that using a phonetic script is better for all languages as opposed to chinese characters.

Also sheer numbers doesnt mean people will start learning it, there has to be a lot of outside preassure or good reason for a general population to start learning a language. French and english became widespread because it was already the language of burocracy due to colonialism, most french speaking africans speak french as a second language, not their first. I honestly doubt we will see an uptake in chinese learners if things stay as they are, and it wont be because of the number of chinese people, but it might change if china becomes a larger global power. Though I doubt most african nations will change their official lingua franca to chinese after decades of hammering out french or english into a commonly understood language.

africanarguments.org/2018/06/25/started-hype-chinese-spreads-fast-africa-language-success/

scmp.com/lifestyle/article/2146368/how-mandarin-conquering-africa-confucius-institutes-and-giving-china-soft

huffingtonpost.com/entry/mandarin-chinese-african-schools_us_57cf3838e4b0a48094a66515

huffingtonpost.com/the-conversation-africa/the-latest-linguistic-col_b_8588306.html

news24.com/Columnists/GuestColumn/africans-are-for-sale-again-as-mandarin-takes-over-20180907

qz.com/africa/1538828/south-africa-schools-now-taking-mandarin-chinese-language-lessons/

qz.com/africa/1505985/uganda-schools-to-teach-chinese-lessons/

theeastafrican.co.ke/news/ea/East-africa-youth-chinese-language-in-pursuit-of-better-future/4552908-4978736-5n558g/index.html

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Is duolingo good?

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Nope. It forces you to do meaningless memorization excercises that do not help you learn to read.
Try finding a podcast going over usable, real basic conversation and once you get the hang of it, start looking at listning/watching comprehension exercises on youtube. Then after that you have basic listning comprehension down and you should watch childrens movies (disney, pixar) in your target language with subtitles in the same language, and dont be ashamed to look up words.

As the capitalist imperialists force Western culture, language, politics, and economics on the rest of the world, the world will see that we are all the same, and that which divides us is class.

India, Japan, and Australia still uses English in high level, so the block of African nations they influence will use English too. The EU uses it, and it’s also the language os science. Add to this the fact that Chinese is much harder to learn than English. We’re heading for a tripolar world order. The EU block, the Japan-Indian-Australian block, and the Chinese block. Two of the three use English, and English is still the lingua franca of Diplomacy and Science. Also English uses an Alphabet of 26 letters where Chinese uses thousands of characters. English is going nowhere.

I really don't see India as a big deal. They're population will be relatively stable. If China allies with Russia and finishes the belt road India will absolutely fall in line. Japan is an isolated Island that is entirely reliant on the US and China already controls SEA is likely to control the whole pacific. China already has majority influence over Australia.

The EU is completely controlled by the USA but the US is dependent on Chinese manufacturing and shipping. If the belt-road is completed China will have the option of cutting the US out of their supply chain. This is why in the Obama era the US made a "pivot to asia" instead of the middle east, but this is a reaction and too late.

India, Japan, and Australia have deep ties with each other. Also the infrastructure of US Imperialism is already in place for joint-cooperation. In addition all these nations are Imperialist or have Imperial ambitions. They won’t fall in line, because without China they can do better. China doesn’t control the pacific, they control the South China Sea, but that’s it. China doesn’t even control Taiwan. Also India won’t “fall in line with China” because China has chosen Pakistan over India as an ally. Also India and China have territiorial disputes.
The EU is a strong Geopolitical bock, they are building up their own army, and have a combined GDP bigger than the US.They obviously have Imperial ambitions.

The belt and road won’t be a complete success, as it’s already failing in Sir Lanka. It won’t be enough to make China a global hegemony, so all the former US allies will use the already existing Imperial infrastructure to create a counter block, this is how Imperialism works. The Belt and Road will just link China to Central Asia, Pakistan, Iran and part of Africa. This is a huge chunk of Earth, perhaps enough to make China the most powerful hegemony, but not enough to make China the only hegemony.
One does not “cut out” the biggest oil producer of the supply chain, just reduce their status and power in it. This is probably worse for America than being cut off though.

Anybody learn Hindi?
Indian communism by 2020 when

English is a language of commerce, most of its words have at least on meaning that is someway connected to capitalism. This is why it is so particularly to discuss communism in English. Its "global" status is very harmful, it is transforming every other language into languages of commerce. Not only they take words over but it has been found by linguists that most literature these days, even when not written originally in English, is written with an English translation in mind, it uses phrases and structures to make the translation easier, since it is the biggest market.

Isn’t this a good thing. A single universal language is a good thing because it makes internationalist projects easier. It doesn’t matter what the language is as long as it is A) has a very large vocabulary, and B) is easy to learn. English ticks both boxes. And already a lot of people know it. Which makes it a good pick.

I’m not saying that national or regional languages should be erased, but a universal, global language that everyone knows is a good thing.

You use the noose which the capitalists sold to you to hang them. It doesn't matter which color it has.

...

English is not easy to learn. Maybe people in Western Europe find it easy since it resembles their native languages but for the rest of the world it is nearly impossible to master it and they have to live their life unable to clearly communicate using it, in perpetual embarrassment and self-doubt, as second class citizens in international communication. I recommend watching this: youtube.com/watch?v=Jb1txDSvmZ8

Esperanto is 50% English, 50% romance jumble, how is it any less western?
There is absolutely nothing special about English, it is no harder or easier than if any other random language were to be global. Finnish? Have fun with cases. Japanese? Have fun with counter words and learning 4 different writing systems mushed into one. Swahili? Have fun with noun classes. French? Have fun with gender and non-phonetic spelling. Etc. Esperanto? Have fun with obligate transitivity marking and few people to actually talk to [about anything other than the language]. Every language has difficult parts and easy parts, you guys just want to shit on English because it's popular and it's spoken in the US. There is no perfect language, there is no language that will be equally easy for everyone, and no language is restraining your thoughts or caging your mind because it doesn't have an incredibly specific word for an obscure cultural concept. You guys need to learn to enjoy linguistics and the diversity of languages for their own sake, it's like trying to force everyone to adapt to a universal dress code or diet, it's an exercise in futility for no reason.

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Nigga I just said that English was harmful for slowly dumbing other languages down so they can be more easily translated into English. If you want to enjoy diverse language then you should oppose English as a global language. Esperanto does not have this problem as it is flexible enough. It was also never meant to be a global native language, but an international auxiliary language. The problem with English is not that it is western but that it is hard, while Esperanto is easy. It's the easiest living language and that's a fact.

Esperanto failed because it's obsolete. Communication is digital now.

English is an easy language to use because unlike most languages it’s very easy to understand what someone is saying, even if they mess up a lot of grammar. You don’t need to be able to know English well to be able to use it when compared to other languages. English also has an extremely long vocabulary, making it suited for intellectual ideas. Esperanto has no where near the amount of vocabulary as English.

Esperanto is a complete mess just like any other made up language.
Just speak your native language and learn languages of people you want to communicate with

English is incomprehensible, you go to a different neighbourhood of London and it's like they are speaking a totally different language.

If you want a global linga franca that favours nobody then why reinvent the wheel? Pick an extinct language that has well-documented grammar and an extensive dictionary like Latin and teach that to everyone as a global second language.