How the fuck do we deal with shit like pic related? How do we purge this? these types of elements in marxist thought are strictly apart of the second contradiciton. Stupid radlib redditor faggots didn’t even know that the original BPP were extremely anti idpol, and in reddit servers i always get called ‘white’ (I am Syrian)
Idpol
Lucas Adams
Benjamin Lee
I only have personal experience, i wasn't never really an idpoler, at some point i might have hanged out with that part of the left but i never really subscribed to the idea of using my non-white identity to, well, identify, and didn't see the reason anyone would do it. My first step to getting into the class part of leftism was hanging out in subreddits where the line between class and identity politics crosses such as chapotraphouse (if you are smart enough you can criticize all sorts of shit in that place, just don't say "fuck your language policing", start with things like "yeah sure, more female CEOs benefit feminism, totally", they are also aware of imperialism. They still engage in idpol tho, i eventually left and came here somehow.
Btw my first step to hanging out in those communities was to start in breadtube, most of them just engage in idpol shit too but sometimes Contrapoints would bring up capitalism and all i could think was "hey, that's true, capitalism is kind of shit" and eventually became too radical for places like chapo.
So take from that story what you will, i guess my point is start in small steps, introduce them to breadtube channels with some idpol but also some class, take them to chapotraphouse or some shit.
Camden Smith
Jesus christ….look I understand it's an issue but can we please not have the same thread over and over and over again ffs? Either way, I hope this answer is something almost everyone here can agree with and something people will remember so we can at least tone down the rate these threads pop up.
Workers don't give a fuck about this shit. The very least we should do is if they're massively reactionary is try to change their opinion on their fellow gay/trans workers and basic LGBT shit like that (I know some of you want to kill them all but oh well).
But this shit? No normal person gives half a fuck. We just dissasociate ourselves from this insane radlibs and present ourselves to workers as actual rational and normal individuals.
Brayden Scott
I don't represent the consensus here, but the nice part about this board is that almost no one does.
I'd suggest really thinking about what elements of identity politics you see as limiting to the power of the working class. It's good to understand how different people suffer, and then prescibe them some good ol' socialism. A lot of these people seem to misattribute the cause of their suffering, like they say racism but don't see it as a symptom of capitalism. They can be made to see the light when you patiently draw the connecting lines.
Some of these people are genuinely working class , while some of them are not. If you truly want socialism, you must organize with the working class parts. They might have a silly pronoun, but shut up and use it. You both share suffering under capitalism and that shared struggle is where you should start. Using their pronoun is the beginning of mutual respect that allows real organization.
The elements of identity politics that divide the organization rather than critique and improve it, should be purged. A lot of this stuff is just bickering, maybe think of it like a friend telling you that their day was shitty. Choose where you want to draw the line with respect to your own sanity and the integrity of the organization.
Adam Ward
Lastly, socialism doesn't magically get rid of all oppression (which is what I used to think) but certainly makes the path to equality smoother.
Easton Martinez
look at this nigga who lived to see the ussr and socialist china
Blake Adams
Nice landscape, here's my ideal one
Parker Taylor
Mmh, I agree with most of what you say except a tiny little thing: I doubt (I'm not ruling it out, just doubt) that there a many working class people that are all about those endless genders, pronouns, and that type of shit. And I'm not even using the term working class as viewed by americans (you know, as in rural rednecks and that shit). I simply believe the conditions they were born in and live in don't allow them to think or be bothered by that shit. I once read how someone said they doubted tribal and early human beings suffered from stress. Why? Because they already have so much shit and reality to deal with. Same with proles, their material reality is their "stress". Not all the bullshit problems well off people like myself have. I very well could be talking out of my ass. I have no clue how dysphoria happens so fuck I'm in no way denying there are proles with dysphoria but fuck idk man.
Jason Thompson
I think Americans are the problem. You need to make it crystal clear that Americans are not welcomed in Marxist circles
Levi Williams
...
Daniel Ward
Well, I can say the way not to do is to complain about it all the time. I'm not saying "shut your trap!" but to be frank there's this floating group of leftists that just talk about why they don't like idpol – and I mean in contexts when no one brought it up in the first place. Just interjection. It gets tiresome like Maupin here. It has a curious effect of being like the mirror image of the "ahem, but excuse me…!" attitude characteristic of (counter-productive or destructive) forms of idpol. Because that's the problem, isn't it? It's not the content of idpol itself but the way it serves as a way of strangling the ability of people in Marxist organizations to think and act *politically* as Marxists.
But I'm not saying you're wrong here about the bigger picture. But that's one thing I noticed. I think the more fundamental problem is that capitalist alienation is intensifying, so there's this mass population that is even-more desperately searching around for some kind of identity (because as workers, they have none; as a worker in capitalism you are individually disposable, like a battery). They scrabble together whatever is available. So what you're seeing is more of a symptom of a problem than the actual problem, I think. Feels very much like opiate-of-the-masses territory.
To twist Marx:
Also, the fact is that people who are drawn to the left are usually going to be kind of fucked up in some way. This is actually to be expected because if you were not fucked up by the world you're living in then why would you become a communist? As a result the people who are going to be front and center of the communist movements are going to be people already embedded in communism as a subcultural mileau – they tend to be nerds, and although nice, they are also highly atomized and can be pretty naive and way too online; and focused on surface-level aesthetics and so on.
Alexander Johnson
America doesn’t have any revolutionary potential, it’s not gonna hurt Marxist cause anyway
Charles Gonzalez
idk, seems like a good option
Evan James
Yeah, you can't actually believe that. Look I'll make fun of americans as much as the next guy and say shit like "fuck them, nuke them" and they ruined my country with their coup and shit like that but you can't exclude every single one. What about people like Parenti? He's is hella based and american.
Brody Clark
America is literally the only Superpower left. If you take control of it you can conquer everyone. Literally the only way for us to have victory over Capitalism is to take over the USA and then go on a rampage.
Nolan Bailey
Problem is that purging USA of reactionaries will result in 100+ million deaths.
Julian Green
Sounds good to me.
Nathan Butler
Yes, but it's not a colonial empire, where you can install comrades in the colonies and reverse the damage of deindustrializing, it's a corporate empire, and by the time you properly reshape it into something revolutionary, it will be a hollow shell of itself.
Dylan Anderson
(me)
I'm going to play this train of thought out some more…
Think about New Atheism here. Remember how a bunch of these guys went on to become anti-idpol warriors? Sam Harris being the big one. I'd say Jordan Peterson – who is not a New Atheist at all – appeals to the same crowd, because I was a neocon New Atheist dipshit in my early twenties (even met Christopher Hitchens, briefly, at one point), and I would reckon I'd be all about Peterson today if I hadn't started reading Karl Marx in the meantime.
But the New Atheist thing is a crock. Okay, religion is an illusion. But you can see how this atheistic crusade was wrapped up in an essentially liberal, imperialist project. They had no materialist analysis of religion. So what the hell is my point here?
I get that you're frustrated and you just want to purge people but you need to think about the conditions that give rise to the problem. However, fundamentally it shouldn't be a problem if someone is building an identity in part around the Pride flag; whatever you think of it, at least it gives some hope, meaning and identity to people in a meaningless and hopeless world in which you have no identity – or whatever, anymore than being Catholic gives some hope to people. A Catholic faith and Catholic identity is at least asking the right questions even if Catholicism has the wrong answers, ultimately. It's not enough to simply go "this is all an illusion" – you have to actually build class consciousness. And people do not come to be class conscious without a struggle with capitalism that makes them aware of it – because capitalism is an ideological thought-control system.
Jason Davis
Your idea that because working class lives are so stressful they have no time to investigate gender and sexuality is interesting. One thing I know for sure is that kids in poor, food insecure homes test poorly, meaning I think it's possible that they wouldn't pick up that kind of info well. But I don't know, that information is pervasive on the internet.
I don't have stats on working class queer people, but I do know that some of the most dedicated socialists I worked with were working class and queer. The most we talked about it was what pronoun, then back to work.
Oliver Price
That's reassuring to know. Are you american by any chance?
Landon Ortiz
Yes and I'm in a area that voted for trump
Colton Johnson
But dedication to socialism in the US looks a lot different than other countries, by that I mean significantly weaker.
Grayson Taylor
Compared to which countries? The U.S. has all sorts of problems but I think there might be more energy than some other Western countries at least. Don't really know what to compare it to, but geeze have you looked at Canada lately?
Jose Miller
you are literally finding any excuse to say the US has no revolutionary potential.
Cooper Hill
Some became the exact opposite, though. New Atheism divided around Elevatorgate into a more left-liberal identitarian camp and a right libertarian camp (with a few non-rightist civil libertarians).
So does religion, as you compare identitarianism to, but I don't think Marx's point was that we should refrain from criticism of religion because for example "a Catholic faith and Catholic identity is at least asking the right questions even if Catholicism has the wrong answers." Despite the hopes it gives, the hopes are false and in the end impede class consciousness the more one clings to them.
Samuel Wright
I've never said that, maybe you're thinking of someone else.
Maybe countries with a strong labour movement, from what I've read. UK and france look interesting, and in general Venezuela, NK, India, China (not deng) among others. I'm about to go to sleep, I might be not as comprehensible.
Ryan Hernandez
I think the US does have potential and passion, but from my experience it's got to learn more from old labour and protest movements. People are just learning to organize and are falling to the same old tricks.
Dylan Thomas
But it's not enough to merely be anti-religion. I'd also check out what Engels wrote about Eugen Dühring's attacks on religion (Dühring was, incidentally, an anti-Semite):
marxists.org
Engels:
Elijah Perry
Judith Butler, as far as feminsts go, is sort of totally in line with what most socialist projects would go for; indeed, Butler denounces the concept of womanhood as contingent upon patriarchy and therefore as something that must be abolished before gender equity can be achieved.
Asher Rivera
Idpol is a result of a comfy lifestyle. Revolution in the third world would bring the standard of living of the first world down. It is hard sit at home and contemplate whether your are an otherkid or a tranny girl
Caleb James
Fuck off Unrhue.
Not having to dread Malaria doesn't make you unable to communism, ok?
Alexander Lopez
You don't have to be a Maoist to see that there is no chance of revolution in the first world
Justin Stewart
What the fuck are you on, Dawkins wrote several books about it and books like Sagan's Daemon Haunted World were also influential in the movement. New Athiests weren't just about "hurr religion dumb me no like", it was a movement to make society more secular and not letting zealots getting away with codifying religions into law.
Every group has its power hungry, drama fueled leeches that attach themselves to social movements to feed. The New Atheists and left movements being progressive and anti-statusquo have the unfortunate nature of giving them what they want in an attempt to be inclusive and grow the movement, but not realizing that they are sucking it dry it til its too late.
Brody Morgan
Good post. I'd add that we should try and get rid of this knee-jerk reaction we have to idpol, and understand it has its uses for minorities. Black Panther party was probably the more based Marxist org than anything Burgers have been able to come up with, and they started as "idpol", reacting to the material conditions their communities suffered from. The Sakai-defending fag is completely right here.
The more serious issue is with white comrades and the more radlib (and predominantly upper-middle class) LGBTABC retards, to whome it's exactly a religious matter, and matter of self-accualisation. You know, the sort of people who say "white" when they mean bourgeoise, a sure sing of a petty-bourg shitstain who can't imagine white people who's experiences don't match his own exist. Them we should re-educate, and in the cases where that's impossible, purge.
With blacks, arabs and what have you, we should be more respectful and make an effort to understand even if we can't always agree.
Nathan Morales
(me)
*since
Mason Rivera
*chuckles in yellow vest*
Bentley Green
revolution does not = revolt
Jonathan Russell
Revolt turns into revolution silly billy.
Gabriel Martin
not in the first world
Zachary Taylor
it will soon
William Fisher
No it won't. Communism isn't popular. If anything it will turn into a far right take over against migrants
Elijah Price
Bitch no one in the Oath in the tennis court would lead to the Revolution yet here we all are.
John Thompson
they have kicked out the fascists in all revolts so far, they don't take shit neither from them or idpolers
Cooper Campbell
Oath in the tennis court thought that would lead to the Revolution
Isaiah White
there is no central organization there haven't kicked out fascists.
There probably isn't any real fascists there just rightwing populists
Jackson Davis
Henry Cruz
Idpol distracts from revolution and alienates the working class from leftwing politics
Lincoln Brown
Gabriel Nelson
yeah they have, literally kicked them out in the streets
Mason Hall
...
Bentley Cruz
"they"
there is no organized structure that has "kicked out" any far right elements in the French riots.
Petty street fights do not count. sorry.
Thomas Jackson
you give yourself away when you post the Zig Forums edit of the original picture
Jace Nelson
...
Oliver Bennett
the fact that you post that picture shows that you relate the entirety of queer identity with bourgeois individualism, which isn't uncommon on this board. I saw some people say that homosexuality is produced from bourgeois decadence on here once. Obviously this whole anti-idpol movement is supposed to align queer people with the enemies of the working class, that's why some user above associates detachment from material exploitation with being "otherkin" or being "a tranny girl", and wishes for our standard of living to drop, so we're not concerned with any sense of individuality, which is another way of saying that he doesn't want queer people to exist. Makes me wonder if some of you even want communism or just thrive off the identity of being a suppressed proletariat.
Adam Johnson
Or maybe he didn't realize it said cultural marxism, what did the original pic said anyway?
Ian Phillips
Sure Mr. CIA
Benjamin Richardson
The original pic has the same picture but with Marx also throwing away a stormnigger, and then a workers of the world unite banner underneath. I wonder why someone would post the image that explicitly calls out right-idpol as just as bad as Intersectional type idpol, if not worse.
Zachary Gray
*Wouldn't
Alexander White
...
Kevin Jones
Cultural Marxism is also an edit IIRC, it said something else. You can probably find it in a thread in the catalogue right now, it's a very old Zig Forums pic, gets posted a lot
Luis Murphy
uh, i've always thought the original pic was both the stormnigger and idpol being kicked out by Marx, i mean we can agree we do kick out the wrecking, too far off twitter radlibs right?
Asher Richardson
It is, that's what I'm saying, it's both images side by side, see pic related
Luis Gonzalez
how is modern homosexuality not precisely bourgeois individualism.
how do you rationalize a disdain for enemies of the proletariat = to not wanting communism
Asher Reed
Lol yeah people who post lesser known edits of famous Zig Forums pics that explicitly replace "Identity Politics" with "Cultural Marxism" are definitely Communist and not some bastardized deviationist Asserite tier retards.
Kayden Lewis
This.
Fuck people who think being annoying and gay is personality
Jason Jackson
it is
Samuel Gutierrez
i mean you are a homophobe, how do you expect to cultivate revolution when you isolate queer members of the working class? That's my point.
but you can overlook this by pretending like there aren't any queer proletarians to make it easier for yourself.
Colton Hall
No one probably blames queer people, just pointing out that they sure as shit aren't part of the solution now
Andrew Cooper
...
Ethan Campbell
queers will satisfy comrades with their boipussy when we run out of women in the revolution AND for free
Caleb Hernandez
reported for shitposting
Bentley Ward
no wait don't do that i don't want to die man
James Morgan
queers are part of the working class, that's why it's important to be accommodating. You're literally saying that gays are class traitors and you call it "criticism", you don't see how you're being ridiculous?
because queers are part of the proletariat
Easton Rivera
Personalities need depth, that's just a way of acting
Evan Anderson
Discussing how a group of people are harmful to leftist politics is criticism no matter how much that hurts your feelings.
this is not true. Some proletariat are queen but also bourgeois.
Keep in mind the police and the lumpen proletariat are also proletariat yet they are a net negative to Leftwing causes as much as homosexuality is.
Alexander Fisher
wow, real edgy.
I'm done talking to you. You are a homophobe and an idiot. End of story.
Jayden Hall
Good to know you can't defend your argument
#rekt
Ethan Evans
Connor Martinez
Nolan Hernandez
This is straight up identity politics. What you are saying here about homosexuals is no different from the typical American radlib who moans on about the problematic nature of cis-gendered heterosexual white men: you are ascribing political positions to whole groups of people. If you feel like a homosexual has bad politics, why not call out the individual instead of the whole group? Would you do the same on the basis of sex or ethnicity?
Charles Gomez
yes, i literally think all queers are part of the proletariat, your deduction skills are brilliant.
Adrian Barnes
wew
David Ramirez
If you read what I was saying you'd see that I am talking about homosexuality and its supports (homosexual and non homo alike)
Luis Smith
this is not marxism
Carson Ramirez
Fuck off cryptofash, you're not welcome.
Colton Flores
fuckoff crypto lib
Benjamin Smith
bourgeoisie
proletariat
many proletariat also pertain to the queer social identity. That's as simple as my point is.
Sebastian Gomez
...
Charles Stewart
and you took a picture of my response to the queer proletarian question here
some proletariat are queer but also bourgeois.
Keep in mind the police and the lumpen proletariat are also proletariat yet they are a net negative to Leftwing causes as much as homosexuality is
Brody Adams
Was Stalin a horrible fascist for outlawing homosex?
en.wikipedia.org
Jose Richardson
...
Sebastian Foster
lenin decriminalized homosexuality
Lucas Powell
yes???
Carter Scott
He was wrong on that you twerp
you just fell for his bait man
Christian Parker
Explain how homosexuality is bad without doing what I described here
Jacob Bennett
idpol is anti leftist
yes
Nolan Thomas
stalin corrected that
Adam Murphy
do you know what homosexuality is?
Leo Parker
IDpol distracts from Revolution