Proletarian democracy and state repression

What should the secret police/internal security service look like in a proletarian democracy?

I'll start off by saying that I'm mainly addressing this question to those with similar views on socialism and democracy. Namely those of us who are Marxists and hold broadly typical Marxist ideas of the state/DotP, but who consider the Soviet style states to have been overly oppresive and despotic (Personally, I lean towards something like Cockshott's proposal of a sortition-based democracy). That's not to devalue the opinions of Anarchists or "Stalinists," it's just that everyone already knows where they stand on this. The latter oppose any kind of state repression, while the latter believe that NKVD style organizations were not so bad and/or were justified in their conduct, and could simply be replicated as such. In other words, both would reject the premise of this discussion and so would turn it into a completely different one.

With that out of they way, here's the topic I want to discuss. Any socialist revolution, however popular, will surely be threatened by espionage from foreign powers and domestic counterrevolutionary elements; this is all the more true for small, encircled countries. Additionally, it will have to deal with threats faced by even non-socialist states, like religious terrorists, organized crime, etc. It will be necessary to fight these with state power. However, secret police agencies in "really-existing-socialist" regimes were often counterproductive to communist and humane ideals in that they tore apart social bonds, abused their power, were unaccountable to the people, terrorized honest citizens, eliminated privacy, and So how do we protect the workers' state while avoiding these evils? Note that I'm talking about long-term institutions that would exist for decades, in "ordinary" times. An extreme situation like a civil war may require (or at least, render forgiveable) more extreme or spontaneous forms of terror that would be undesirable in normal circumstances.

Below, I'll present and explore some historical methods of domestic intelligence from both the socialist and capitalist worlds. Which of these do you think would be appropriate to a really democratic workers' state, and how should they be used? What checks should be put on the system to keep it under control?

-The "classic" Soviet model: a centralized, top-down, and ruthless secret police that is not constrained by the rule of law. It spreads fear through the population, and builds a network of informants through material incentives and other means. Its autonomous nature allows it to stay secretive, and it's more or less succesful at destroying actual enemies, but with collateral damage I've already discussed. I've already made views on this system clear, so I won't repeat them.

-Mass collective surveillance; the Cuban model: exemplified by Cuba's Committees for the Defense of the Revolution. Organizes a large share of the population to inform on fellow citizens. Participatory and perhaps even decentralized, but local bodies mainly execute priorities defined by the top. Committees can punish reputed counterrevolutionaries by derailing their careers, denying higher education, etc. Actually, you could compare it to that (troll?) thread in the catalog about the "proletarian panopticon." This model (as we know it) is basically incompatible with privacy, and creates a chilling effect in the public sphere. It's been criticized for attracting and enabling petty, power-hungry individuals to unfairly interfere in people's lives; kind of like if HOAs had the power to get you fired.

-COINTELPRO tactics/Zersetzung: Most famously used by the FBI and the later Stasi. It involves infiltrating putatively subversive organizations and tearing them apart from the inside before they can take off; heavy use of psychological manipulation. Basically what the feds did to the BPP, the third Klan, etc. By all indications this is a very effective, if ruthless, way to destroy political organizations.

(cont.)

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-The "West German Model": I have in mind here the BRD's "Office for Constitutional Protection," specifically wrt to its politically repressive activities. It infiltrates both leftist and far right groups and gathers information on them. The details of infiltration are of course secret, but not the fact that a given organization is being monitored. It publically publishes much of this information, listing "anti-constitutional" organizations and describing their numbers, activities. No doubt it also sabotages activies that it considers to be a real "threat," but it is often content to let groups operate so long as they are monitored. It's a matter of public record, for example, that Germany's largest Neo-Nazi party (NPD) was spared a ban because it serves as a valuable honeypot for the authorities.

-Mass electronic surveilance: basically, the NSA. Uses algorithms to monitor every person's electronic activity and make a basic profile on them.

Why the fuck don't countries have training for cops to NOT be brutes, every single fucking country has instances of fucked up cops.

Because brutes are inherently attracted to the position and the fact that cops spend almost all their time around other cops means their ideology becomes more and more extreme and inculcated until they see the general public as the enemy and themselves and victims.

It's why the armed forces are generally a lot less forceful than the police in riot control roles and similar, they have a similar process of brainwashing but it's directed against foreigners instead of their fellow citizens so they're a lot more reluctant to overuse force on them.

I think the West German system could actually be instructive here, if not adequate in itself. This is somewhat ironic, since that agency is mainly targeted against the left, but I'm referring to the system itself, not the way the BRD uses it. But imo a socialist domestic police should be as transparent as possible, given the very dangerous nature of this tool and its tendency towards corruption. The public will be able to know for a fact that it's only being used against counter-revolutionaries, fascists, the klan, etc. and not against legitimate organizations or democratic rights. Precisely which groups could be targeted would need to be outlined explicitly by the constitution and approved by the people. Hell, this approach even lets the Nazis keep their free speech so long as they're kept on a leash and constrained from doing any real harm.

We can't rule out the use of COINTELPRO tactics to defeat truly dangerous enemies, because our enemies will show us no such mercy. Again, I'm not talking about grandma's church group, I mean seriously evil people like Luis Posada Carriles. What really matters is who these tactics are being used against. Here's one idea: to use such methods, the agency would need to get a revocable warrant of sorts from a sortitioned jury, which would also have full clearance and supervisory powers over the operation. This helps ensure that repression is being used to defend democracy rather than undermine it, because the agency could never do anything that most workers would disapprove of, while still allowing for secrecy.

what's the deal with secret police

they're not a secret and they're not a police

bump

I played it up a bit for provocative purposes but I do think that extensive mass-surveillance is quickly coming part of the modern state. It is necessary for the maintenance of bourgeois states. Likewise it will be necessary, if not more so, for the construction and consolidation of socialism. The DoTP needs to have all means at its disposable to locate potential counterrevolutionaries, wreckers and foreign agents. If you're doing nothing wrong there is no need to be afraid. More on the topic of internal policing, obviously there needs to be some sort of vigorous internal political police for these kinds of operations, though I'm also not adverse to (and actually like) the Cuban CDRs. Burkina Faso had similar bodies for the carrying on of the revolution at the local level. The people are the masters of the revolution and the molding and stimulating of ideological socialist consciousness will be a key step in the construction of socialism. The military in general should be an obligation for all citizens, male and female, when they come of age. In the modern age Songun politics will be relevant until the last imperialist state is destroyed. The entire people should be trained and armed, with the active duty soldiers forming the driving force of the revolution. Kim Il Sung gave importance to arms and military affairs and we see the success of that today.

I believe that the NKVD are heroes of the revolution all. There wasn't anything inherently wrong about their methods and organization especially considering the conditions during their conception. You mention the NKVD's excesses, but there will ALWAYS be collateral as a result of a revolution, during a war. The question that us communists must focus on is whether this terror implemented will be reigned to coincide with the ideals of revolution. In that way, the NKVD did its job, without them there would've mobs, rapes, anarchy, on a unprecdented level not only on the side of the Whites, but those fighting for proletarian class interest. Why is it that Bukharin describes how members of state security commonly suffered disorders, shell-shock, amongst many other maladies? It's because the imperative that characterized many members of the NKVD is a dedication to the cause that conflicted the empathy they felt in the face of such death. You don't see same pangs of guilt over the potential death of innocents amongst the fascists, who sadistically enjoyed their reactionary terror without question. Debate all you want about the correct implementation of such a force in the future, but the legacy of the men and women who defended the revolution should not be besmirched.

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The individual members are secret; the existence of the institution is open.
What?

The term you are looking for to extend this notion is sousveillance

Good thread.


This seems absurd to me. Yes, the revolution needed to be defended and there is often no bloodless or ideal way to go about that, but to say there were or would be no excesses seems delusional to me. Do you really think that ALL of those original Bolsheviks and non-Bolshevik socialists monitored and jailed by the NKVD were counter-revolutionaries? It seems like OP understands the pragmatism of enforcement and some degree of surveillance perfectly well, only wants to avoid the obliteration of any internal (within the left) dissent. The apologism for secret police full stop always strikes me as strange, as if their official commitment to the revolution is so much less fallible than the commitment to peace and democracy of western intelligence and secret police instead of an organ of a state that, though having an overall class character, has various competing opportunistic and politically contradictory elements operating within it. Look at the vicious ideological disagreement all portions of leftist revolutionary movements are in until they gain power – so many sincere and committed revolutionaries disagreeing about everything. This can't be allowed to cripple or hinder a real movement, of course, and discipline is certainly necessary to hammer down certain standards about where actors' loyalties broadly lie – I'm not saying let the Mensheviks vote out the Bolsheviks, I'm saying don't force the Bolsheviks to cannibalize themselves. The vitality and integrity of the revolution is lost when people who can properly toe the (equal parts strict and arbitrary) ideological lines are prioritized over people who have original, dynamic political convictions and energies. A variation and healthy democratic disagreement among the vanguard will also better represent the tendencies of a population who isn't given a strange ultimatum. Think of how strange a period "de-Stalinization" must have been for the average Soviet citizen.


Delusion, you absolutely do see this. Colonial literature is full of accounts of how scarred and confused even patriotic imperial soldiers were. US military propaganda leans extremely heavily on sympathy for people who have been psychically castrated by the horrors they have committed under the excuse of duty to ideals. Do you REALLY think that, had Nazi Germany won, most of the camp guards at Auschwitz wouldn't have been wracked with PTSD for the rest of their lives? Contextual sociopathy and genocide do not preclude humanity and trauma.

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Regarding this issue, does anyone have a book to recommend on the KGB and NKVD? I know there are some extensive works based on defectors tales and leaked documents etc. but anything half-credible?

I'll try to write a more detailed response to your post later but this is actually not true. The Einsatzgruppen were the most hardened of all Nazis and volunteered to murder Jews in cold blood, but there was a very consistent pattern where even seemingly unrepentant members who have shown no regrets would simply commit break down or commit suicide with warning. That's one of the reasons they started using camps instead.

What are the ustaches? i've heard they were a fucked up group that allied with the nazis, they skinned children and that kind of shit but i don't understand the relation they had with the nazis themselves

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Did you even read his post?

I hate to bring the cliché anarchist/ultra-left perspective on this but I really find modern surveillance states absolutely irredeemable and something that really should be done away with. After the Cuban revolution they closed down literal panopticons used by the previous government.

but didn't you get the memo, survelliance is all fine when it's voluntary. there's no god but javascript, and cookie is one of his prophets.

How should we deal with internal threats? I don't doubt that there will be a day in which such things are no longer necessary, but in the immediate revolutionary and post-revolutionary eras, do you think that is realistic?

They're going to be absolutely necessary in the revolutionary era. After that, though, I agree.

Nice moralistic / subjective critique. No substance

Proletarian democracy isn't really proletarian democracy until it can be defended bottom-up by it's citizens. This means protection from internal anti-social behavior by community-managed police forces, and protection from larger organized threats by spontaneous militias.

Nevertheless a minimally authoritarian socialist state may be necessary in the establishment and early protection of such a worker democracy. We shouldn't conflate this with the goal itself though.

The safest way is to jail or execute anyone who has a University Degree and all of your military officers.

Yes, did you read mine? He clearly sees collateral (mistakes resulting in death and imprisonment of innocents) as inevitable to some extent (which I agree with) but does not acknowledge that that extent can go beyond what is necessary and become excess.

Having a state model that mirrors the west but on a red, marxist run socialist frame to me gives the least amount of ammunition to the agents of capitalism, thus i favor both the west german and COINTELPRO approach