How do we Marxpill the "Yang Gang"?

!

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not even the same planet anymore

Unironically this is good fucking practical policy right here.

What i'm not understanding is /why/ UBI neccitates privatisation. Everything else in the post i replied to is built on this presupposition without explaining why it must be the case. I dont personally see most parties that would implement UBI around the world would hand it off to the private sector. I don't see how this would be supported by the potential recipients either.

jehu is really retarded

What is your question? Isn't it explained in my post?

It "necessitates" it because UBI advocates can't tolerate paying for BOTH UBI and loads of free shit and social services. Hence why Yang's plan requires people to choose between a bunch of already existing welfare and support programs and the UBI. His is a "moderate" plan. Many UBI people say the existing programs should be totally scrapped, including healthcare and so on, and the funding moved to UBI. This necessarily means shutting down and privatizing them.

It doesn't. However certain think tanks hired by porky have worked out that UBI can be sold to voters as a supposedly nice social democratic welfare policy, while scamming them out of the actual remaining scraps of the welfare state that porky has been itching to pilfer for decades.

Sauce? I don't see this as the case in much of europe at least. Privatization seems to be practically a poison word for anyone left of Nixon currently.

Do…do you actually know what "privatizing" means, and how it's different from "centralizing"?

UBI plans always involve moving funds from currently existing social services to the ubi fund. Most just say to do away with them completely, Yangs is more moderate but would essentially do the same thing as less people using these services and less funding going towards them would make them less effective and cause more people to leave. It sets them up to failure, his website even says funding would come in part from current social services. The other big part which is even worse imo is he wabts a VAT to fund this whole thing which is horribly regressive. All this would do is funnel money meant to go to poor people into the hands of middle class and rich peoples hands, all while adding a new regressive tax that would disproportionately hurt the poor.

Can confirm it is good. I can go down to my local corner shop, get some stamps, put £500 into my bank account and buy a pack of biccies all in one trip.
Also really handy for local businesses and tradesmen, as they can deposit cash quickly on their lunchbreak and so on because all the big banks are closing their non-city branches to go online.
Not to mention oldies.

sup porky

yangbol party?

Jehu knows the way. We should get on board with Yang Gang and make him the official Nazbol candidate for 2020. Mostly because it would be funny.

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(can't be arsed to quote all relevant posts)

UBI can and will be used to privatize public services. The model currently adopted for privatization is dropping in-kind provisions of healthcare and such from government agencies to subsidized private entities. It's no longer direct in-kind provision, the private entity receives 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧market-rate🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧 payment from the government for every person they treat instead of at cost and in-kind direct provision. Dropping this public-private rent seeking in favor of just giving people the money that at best can cover only rent or only healthcare has the same effect.

If you want to make social democratic demands, demand national health services that do not operate on public-private partnerships but is instead a closed circuit so to speak and doesn't just funnel money into rent seeking private providers.

guys please

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I don’t understand how UBI passes the Zig Forums and reactionary antibodies so well. It makes me think that the huge propaganda efforts of the wealth networks behind right wing discourse are REALLY fucking effective, since of course we know that they’ve been favorable to UBI before to lower wages and possibly their tax burden.

Though I don’t see companies dumping wages immediately in response to UBI, or rent going up immediately. For companies, especially low wage work, you’d see total stagnation at whatever the level is now and a total lack of will to raise the minimum wage a penny in Congress. They’d wait for inflation to eat away at the value of wages, and maybe hire on new people at a lower level than their peers (likely just minimum wage). Meanwhile, rent would be steadily rising at a faster rate. All of this, and for Yang at least the goal seems to be to have the tax burden not increase on the wealthy. It’s mostly coming out of current mandatory spending with the whole swapping benefits for UBI thing, everything else is the VAT that disproportionately hits working people.

So win-win. Tax burden doesn’t move much if at all but your payroll drops, so you can squeeze the proletariat more because what you really tried to do here was shift the tax burden of the state more onto them as a class while tying it to something that looked appealing to them.

Only if state-subsidized weed is legal in all states.

No shit. UBI is no social democratic reform. The justification for supporting it is purely left-accelerationist.

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UBI is coming for the same reason the EU accepts non working immigrants. it's a quick way to get tax money in to corporate hands without people getting mad. it alrady happens with obama care but it's exclusive to the health industry, UBI is the rest of the economy wanting a piece of that cake.

They don't need really our intervention. Encourage discussions on automation if you really want to. It's a topic which gets people to reconsider long-term stability of capitalism. Personally just discussions of long-term effects of automation on the job market were enough to shake me out of my libertarian-capitalist ideology more effectively than anything else I'd been faced with before.

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Naw. UBI will be state run. For example you think John McDonnell in the UK shills UBI as a plot to privatize welfare through the backdoor? Why would he do this?

ofcourse UBI can be applied in proper succdem ways. But that's not the kind of UBI neolibs like yang are shilling, nor the one burgers will get.

I have no clue who the fuck this guy is, can anybody give me a brief rundown?

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asian who loves technology and promises to give you 1000 a month

An online astroturf campaign aimed at imageboards for a literally who

A) America already has privatized healthcare
B) Yang suports nationalizing healthcare

Say that since blacks and hispanics are genetically more impulsive and reckless and prone to excess and poor decision making entreneurial whites will end up through market mechanisms be redistributed to the white race and white prosperity will lead to higher white birth rates and natural eugebics as higher costs lf living wrought by higher standing of living will cause mass ethnic homelessness which will die off. I mean this all tongue in cheek of course.

Also show how Yang is using coded language for gun control to disarm blacks and his coded language about a strong border and higher educate immigrants is anti immigrant.

arm all workers fuck white niggers

Alright, I'm going to make an actual case for UBI that isn't social democratic.

UBI allows us to fight the deeply culturally impressed concept that if people aren't forced into slavery for every cent they make, that society will collapse.

Even if you manage to convince people of all the necessity of socialism, manage to get them to believe every single bit of anti-capitalist rationale, people will still fall back to this meme and say "It sounds good on paper but it doesn't work in reality", and this is one of the two biggest grounding bulwarks against it. The absolute certain belief that people have to be whipped into labor in order to keep society running. That people need constant coercion against literal starvation in order to keep people coming back. That attempts to create any kind of social guarantee to life are going to result in certain doom. Because obviously people are greedy and lazy and if you just let them live without forcing them into work, everyone will just accept that level of subsistence and refuse to work. I can not explain just how important this conditioning is to getting people to accept the basis of capitalism. This ends up being a common thread of thought even on most progressives, that people still need to be made to work in order for things to run.

The other reason for UBI is that it lets us start cutting away at "jobs" that exist purely because the economy would be totally defunct otherwise.

It doesn't need to really be said that a significant portion of labor in the US provides no real purpose other than to maintain employment because there really is no other option. Do we really need the thousands of store greeters, do we actually need so many fast food cashiers? Couldn't most modern factories be run lights-off? Are the majority of logistics jobs going to survive the impending drone replacements? No, even the most cursory glance at modern capitalism tells us that these jobs exist because we really don't have any other answers, and even still, they're vanishing. UBI is a way to push for elimination of these jobs by enhancing and promoting automation by creating a socially ethical fallback that people filling these jobs can take.

At this point it's a matter of pushing automation so hard that there is nothing but socialism left.

I refuse to believe that Yang-gang actually exists and Yang is just young enough to understand how meme-culture works and is trying to make a name for himself.

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Just going to say this. You need to actually decommodify shit (particularly housing and healthcare).

UBI is the first step towards the elimination of the "excess" population

prove it

As automation increases people will lose jobs and be replaced. When this happens there will obviously be public resistance and outcry against this. To placate the proles the more progressive elements of the capitalist class will help to institute UBI schemes, placating the proles and creating a passive consumer base. From there it is only a matter of time before reactionaries come out of the woodwork calling for population control policies and getting rid of excess non-working people

It's harder to call people out for using UBI than it is for conditional welfare. Surely you've heard the racist dogwhistle term "welfare queen".

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I wouldn't call this fellow much of a "Marxian econ" if he doesn't even point out the most blatant fact. The fact that the economy is dominated by finance capital and any scheme to implement social services would just lead markets to collectively shit themselves.

As a note, I don't absolutely support this. However there's good reason to talk positively about Yang's platform as a means of pushing the Overton window further left. His platform is more important than he is.

TBH whether reactionaries succeeded in exterminating people or not, UBI is going to tend towards reproducing an impoverished underclass. So it could be a much more banal outcome, but still not great.

I don't think people would get exterminated because of UBI or automation. More likely that climate change will create external pressures to kill people through neglect or directly.

why would you feed their idpol tendencies?

Which makes it even funnier tbh.

YANG GANG 2020

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This will happen regardless of if their is UBI. UBI isn’t enough to live on. And if it was it’d cause inflation. Automation will kill capitalism, UBI is just a cushion so that the transition from capitalism to socialism is less brutal than without it.

No, that's an effect of capitalism.

Regardless of whether or not Yang is any good, I have to say that so far the maymay culture surrounding him is way less cringe than Trump. MAGAshit is just pure cancer and I'm glad it's finally starting to diminish somewhat on imageboards.

UBI is a feature of capitalism dumbass.

I'd add though that minimum wage is actually pretty far below what most workers make right now. If you check BLS statistics (I'm too lazy right now), the work force at or below minimum wage has been shrinking for years. Minimum wage didn't keep up with the labor market itself. So in this case, most people would probably see a slow wage reduction to minimum wage, and minimum wage would have further political pressure from market interests to not increase.

Given the regressive VAT tax, this would effectively be a redistribution from the upper income brackets of working people to the capitalists who employ very low skill workers. They'd be able to, over time, lower their low skill wages to something at least closer to minimum wage if not at minimum wage. Wages for the low wage workers may not budge much, but the point is these employers would just be subsidized through tax redistribution schemes ideally effecting high income workers, rather than capital owners.

Except it's not the UBI that's causing that effect.

so are labor regulations, doesn’t make them bad

How is the elimination of both the "middle class" and the meme of "lol just work till ur successful" not a good thing?

I disagree, I think the threat of automation is more being used to push through UBI even though automation is too destabilizing for capitalists to be able to achieve it. UBI just becomes a way to stabilize markets and keep a cheap labor force.

The ruling class is preparing for WW3, class consciouness is rising and the world is going through a record wave of strikes. ANY Politician trying to provide an "alternative" capitalism MUST be opposed. Its either socialism or barbarism.

Andrew Yang is a capitalist shill like AOC, Sanders, Warren, and the entire lot. As the US heads towards catastrophic war, their role is to channel working class opposition to reformist positions. They must ALL be opposed and socialists need to follow the lead of the SEP who is working very hard to form rank and file committees of workers with an internationalist perspective.

Obviously, but it was exacerbate the problem and lead to an even wider disparity in wealth inequality.

Also lmao @ the Trot shilling for UBI itt

Same. halfchan Zig Forums is even somewhat bearable now. I've seen about a dozen regularly posted threads daily regarding automation and wage slavery. At least it gets them thinking about this stuff and not just "duh joos".

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Literally 2/5 of the images you posted are anti-semitic

Like it or not, yang is the most memable "alternative" candidate. My only hope is that he's a good accelerationist option. Maybe the $1k/month scenario will crash the economy with no survivors? One can only hope.

I really don't see why people think this is different from a combine harvester. The working class will just be increasingly reduced to literal servitude as the illusion of white-collar 'work' becomes less tenable. What stops a capitalist from employing 1000 peons as his personal property instead of as assembly-line workers?

I see them as more anti-Israel. Not necessarily "dah joos". Likewise, I didn't say that Zig Forums has completely rid themselves of the retarded "joo meme", but its somewhat bearable now. Not 99% of of the threads in that place being about it.

Because there's a maximum capacity on the number of bullshit jobs that can be maintained, labour is still the source of all value, and the more people are 'employed' without actually being productive isn't profitable.

it isn’t profitable

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This is true.

This is not a problem.

What's amusing is the sheer number of absolutely liberal posts talking about how this is going to take money away from the working class through inflation.

Your prioirity is not to maintain the monetary status of the proletariat. Your priority as a socialist is to develop a system of socialized material distribution. UBI is definitionally a form of socialized material distribution operating on a small scale under capitalism whilst the parasitical class of bourgeoisie continue to suck value out of the working class.

If you can not see how much this situation works to our advantage by showing off how literally parasitical the bourgeoisie are off the working class then I don't know how to help you

Reformism reduces the profitability of capitalism by reducing the amount of surplus labor extracted.

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Finally someone understands that social democracy is the real accelerationism.
Reminder that porky doesn't need help playing his side of the class war

This is pointless

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Accelerationism i gueee. heighten the ideological contradictions of idpol to paralyze their consciousness and cause schizophrenia

I'm sorry but please take off that damn flag. Trotsky would roll over in his fucking grave. I suggest you read Lenin's Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism.

If you've been following recent events you'd understand that that the US economy is dominated and dictated by finance capital. ALL major decisions about war, economic "reform", militarization is ultimately at the whims of finance capital. And finance capital can't even accept a .25% rate increase from the Fed, how the FUCK do you think it would ever accept Yang's reforms or reforms of any kind?

The role of Yang, Sanders, AOC, etc are to FOOL the working class in to believing that they have any semblance of hope in the capitalist system. The MOMENT Yang gets into office, he will backtrack on every single one of his promises and even if he tries to pass these reforms, the markets will respond by sharply declining. On top of that theres no way in hell these reforms will ever get passed.

Bourgeois elections are a sham, all Marxists know this. Stop shilling for this retard and help out the working class. Its time to independently mobilize workers by leading them to break away form the political parties and labor unions and form rank and file committes. In essence Soviets.

If that happens that this will radicalize workers. People don’t go from normies to Commies overnight.

Bourgeois elections ARE a sham, but only if you want to elect a candidate who promises to make all your Socialist dreams come true.
If you vote for someone based on how bad they'll be for your country, you'll always get what you want.
Stupid armchair.

american political theater is pointless and the executive office is incapable of fulfilling campaign promises

No it will disorient workers and throw them in the hands of fascism. The reason the Russian Revolution succeeded was because there was a vanguard party that "PATIENTLY EXPLAINED" to the workers who their enemies were. That way when the Mensheviks and liberals inevitably betrayed the Russian peasantry and proletariat, the people understood that it was the Bolsheviks who were right all along, and that is what gave them the support necessary for revolution to succeed.

I urge everybody here to READ.

Start with Marxism by Lenin, then read What is to be Done, Permanent Revolution by Trotsky and the Revolution Betrayed to actually have a decent grasp of what needs to be done now.

Exactly, the workers need to see these things fail before they resort to militancy you retard.
Bourgeois elections are a sham, all Marxists know this. Stop shilling for this retard and help out the working class. Its time to independently mobilize workers by leading them to break away form the political parties and labor unions and form rank and file committes. In essence Soviets.
Do you believe that you can just be persuasive enough that workers will start forming soviets and seizing the means of production just right now in the current climate?
Its a fantasy. We need the workers to mobilise around bourgeois elections and social democracy so they can see it fail and get angry about it, get angry at the bourgeois politicians and the market to react negatively. These are all good things which will heighten the contradictions and lead to overt class warfare. That's how you get to soviets, unlike you, Lenin and Trotsky understood this.

just some simple 4D chess!

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Fucking idiots, the lot of you

yh, that kind of almost goes without saying

Not trolling. I probably sound like a brainlet, but what about material conditions? i.e. the burgerland working class (and west) doesn't have it bad enough to warrant armed revolution as it did during the industrial revolution/Great Depression. Which gave rise to genuine labor movements.

I mean you have to understand how they see things through an extremely ideological lens. To them Jews are just a symbol for greed.

Christ you historical and political illiterate, yes the role of communists is to organise the vanguard and show the way past the social democrats, but you must realise that for the Bolsheviks to have been able to do this the SRs, Mensheviks and Kadets first had to take power themselves. There was no room for Bolshevik agitation nor were the workers receptive to it compared to their receptiveness to the more moderate parties. It was precisely through their experience of the provisional government and its betrayal of the working class that the Bolsheviks were able to take off in popularity among the workers. You CANNOT have your october soviets without first having your february provisional government, you are trying to put the cart before the horse.
Please read the books you're recommending

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I don’t fully agree with the other user in the sense that the replacement of jobs doesn’t have to be proportional to the ones lost, but it doesn’t have to be profitable, they’re buying a service. When the profit rate drops to a level that reinvestment isn’t lucrative, capitalists spend more on consumption. Hiring servants isn’t to profit, it is just luxury spending. I don’t know if it is possible that the economy would adjust and translate to this state of affairs smoothly, but automation in this case is just the increasing productivity of a small set of industrial and agricultural workers (who, in most conceptions are now just maintenance of the machines) who now support a greater mass of unproductive service workers providing luxury goods and services to the rich.

What you're missing is that this unprofitability will cause the gears of capitalism to grind to a halt.

That's still a problem though because if they did ever become class consciousness, they'd just turn into Asserites.

Maybe failing to pass reforms will, but succeeding and creating stagnation or decline will just make workers believe that interference with “natural market forces” or whatever is bad.

Strasserites*

I find that once one of their central beliefs if reconsidered and changes it affects the others, as if all their individual beliefs are a self-reinforcing web, that comes down like a Jenga tower if you remove a few pieces at the fundamentals. Work with what you have where you can, imo.

It doesn’t matter tho, it’s just stagnation. Japan has been mostly stagnant for over a decade because of its withering labor force, but there are no signs of its collapse. Just a slow shambling into the night of never ending bourgie privilege and a meager consumer existence in little urban boxes.

Its not just stagnation. The falling rate of profit is something else entirely, as is the complete lack of profit that automation causes.

is this why Zig Forums likes him? he's good with autistic kids?