Why does trigger some leftists so much?

If we're stuck living under capitalism having the option to opt out is nice. I support that. But it shouldn't be the end goal.

The rage against UBI is because it would kill revolutionary potential
UBI is an attempt by capitalist to pay off the proletariat not to revolt, preserve capitalism

Have other historical social policies like the 40-hour workweek prevented any revolution from happening?

I'd be okay with it if it were ACTUALLY universal.
Yang isn't offering UBI. It's not available for people on assistance. It's retarded.

It's another one of these "Let's raise people's wage without requiring companies to pay a dime" liberal bs that in the long run won't benefit workers but puts extra stress on the state.
On the other hand, I guess one could afford housing in the countryside without having to work for a while (until inflation catches up).

Yup, we should all embrace reactionary policies instead, because screwing over the working class pushes them toward class consciousness

Well you're asking to prove a negative
However, we can see that as life gets easier people become less revolutionary.

UBI is a reactionary policy in an attempt to save capitalism

Believing that capitalism can be saved is, itself, reactionary. Capitalism can't be saved, so what is the harm of letting porky try and save it?

Marx said the capitalism could just fall by contradiccions, UBI and another social reforms in reactionay parties are just a step closser to socialism, but they aren''t conscient of that, They keep thinking are saving a dying system.

Is a contradiction of capitalist try hard to save capitalism with socialist agenda… But porkies are just stupids monsters.

I disagree, at least from my personal experience. I've spent most of my life living off of government assistance. Reading lots of books, soaking up this shit online, etc… Do you think I had time for that when I was working all day long? People who live hand to mouth are absolutely petrified of losing their jobs. Their employers have been eroding their rights for decades. When I come home from a long day at work I don't think thoughts like "let's overthrow the government" I think "I want to watch a hockey game and go the fuck to sleep." I've experienced both ways of living and I can tell you I put a whole lot more thought into it all while I wasn't neck deep in the shit. Just because the government subsidizes my life doesn't mean I see them as some benevolent thing. But to actually take the time out to read about it and find the correct language to explain my experiences? That doesn't happen so much when I'm working.

There is no socialist agenda
UBI is not socialism

Yes, youd have 8 hours to do that during the week and atill have time to get a full night sleep plus weekends.

Also anecdotes don't hold up in a debate and you're sample size is extremely small and irrelevant to the entire population(1person, you)

Cause if you don't work you don't eat :^) Look at Finland and how UBI is working for them. I know Yang's 1k isn't that much in the grand scheme of things but we don't need NEET's getting money.

Other than that… ye the obvious succdem comment xdd

like crumbs of a great big pie.

But It is, at least in premise, and that's important, because, regardess they don't fulfish their promise and the UBI shall turned in capitalist demagogy like Obama Care, etc, those social reforms are evidencing the wish of the people and the prole. But I agree this via is so slow, and dangerous because capitalism could detroy the prole and planet instead destroy itself.

That's totally what I want to do when I'm sore, tired, and mentally drained. You're completely disconnected from the actual life of the proletariat.

How do you even figure that? UBI is welfare capitalism.

Its capitalist regardless, same with Obama care.

And the wish of porky to not be overthrown
.

Sounds like you're jest making shit up
Working has become less draining than it has ever been in human history and you're whining that ypu can't read a book after an hour of sitting in traffic.

The proletariat did revolution over 100 years ago in much worse conditions and you're bitching about not wanting to read after a day at the office

You're licking the boot that's on my people's neck. Because it's better than before we shouldn't bitch about the shitty things we deal with now? That's counter-revolutionary. I'm done talking to you.

You're making excuses THAT is counter revolutionary.

Also you strawmanned the fuck out of my last post

Also "a day at the office" is pretty funny too. You think everyone works some white collar job like you? Bitch please.

If youre job is too taxing get an office job call centers are always hiring

There are no call centers where I'm from. I worked at one before when I lived somewhere else. It was commission based. I've never been more miserable than when I worked that job. Office jobs tend to want to hire qualified people and I don't really fit the bill. I didn't go to college. I'm a broke ass rural white dude who dwells in a trailer park. I mostly worked retail jobs. I really don't mind it but if you think it's not hard or that it won't make you want to die sometimes you're out of touch with the realities of life in the US. The pay is just okay and the benefits are mostly non existent. It pays more than living off government assistance but the fucked up thing is if I don't work and keep collecting assistance I get singer payer health care. So it's a choice between working, actually risking my health and being encouraged to go into work sick/injured by a sliding pay scale, or sitting on my ass and being a lot more broke but having food/health care taken care of. Both options really suck and honestly I'm ready for revolution either way.

just make ubi recipients do the shittiest, most degrading labor possible for like a day every month if you really want to build class consciousness

As long as it doesn't act as a form of corporate welfare.

some states already make you work for welfare and they typically make you do civil engineering type crap like digging ditches

My worry is that things like this will happen: bbc.com/news/uk-17163394

But honestly it already was a thing in the US before.

You're just making things up now

I'm really not. I could offer up evidence to support most of what I said if you wanted. Some of it I couldn't do without doxxing myself.

Your take is symptomatic of the current state of the left: highly individualized. We used to bring the idea of revolution to the workplace, you know.

So you want people to suffer? interesting take.

To me it sounds like because UBI didn't specifically come from socialist milieu, people are knee jerk reacting against it.

Why don't we just remove all health care, public schools, welfare too?

UBI could end homelessness tommorow and all the suffering that goes with that.

A lot of proposals for UBI is to eliminate welfare altogether and just give everyone a check for $X, and the problem is that not everyone has equal expenses. If I have Type I diabetes then I might be losing money because UBI is less than what I got through my healthcare.

kys retard, did you even work in your life to spout such bullshit

not true at all, feudal peasants literally hadmore leasure

I'm gonna make a significant remark here:
Life got easier in a lot of capitalist countries when they went to making comfort dependant on imperialism and then went and did a lot of imperialism.
It's a lot easier to remain revolutionary when your way of life doesn't literally depend on the enslavement of about half of all humanity

I know I benefit personally from US imperialism in many ways. But I am also very aware that I don't benefit from all of it. I'd like to see it all done away with but I think the easiest parts of it to argue against in the short term is shit like dropping bombs on yemeni school buses. My tax dollars paid for that and it didn't benefit me in any way. It really pisses me off that I have the choice of either being paid by the state, living hand to mouth with free health care, or working my ass off and having a pittance remaining once the bills are paid yet my tax dollars do very little for my own personal well being. If you work you should have something to show for it. I think many working people in the US feel the same as me yet have stockholm syndrome. Loyalty to their employer, their boss, whatever it is due to fear of losing their job and being fucking destitute. Because it's so easy to find yourself there if you don't fall in line.

...

the amount isn't even that high. It is Bismark's welfare reforms all over again.

I don't care for anecdotes

You wanting to preserve capitalism is wanting people to suffer.

If you read west i previously wrote you'd see my very specific arguments against it

Removing public schools is unironically a good idea. Teachers are full of bourgeois idealism fetishizing college and higher learner VIA INSTITUTIONS as something divine. plus they are just capitalist propaganda factories.

No it can't. However even if it could our goal as communists is to achieve communism not simple pleasures like yank bucks that's for liberals

...

My experiences aren't that uncommon as far as life in the US goes. You can tell me you don't believe me and reject everything I have to say but it's not like I'm making some shit up to try to ingrain myself to you. Everyone I know lives similar to this. The boot pressed down on our collective necks has more pressure applied to it each year. We have less than our parents and they had less than their parents. Capitalism is fucking the majority of my generation and the next one is even more fucked. I'd even say I have it pretty good compared to most of them.

Well we can argue thr objective reality of the working class in America today however I am not going to engage in a debate in which the parameters are YOUR life experiences.

I'm not really looking for a debate as much as I'm trying to open your eyes to the fact there are a lot of people like me. We're not happy under capitalism. Telling us we have no revolutionary potential or that because we live in a first world country where all the boomers have nice cars and own houses means we could never attain class consciousness ignores the very harsh reality we face. That and the fact you come off as sounding like a complete cunt.

You do understand that you are an extreme minority in comparison to the US proletariat? It doesn't matter how woke you think you are or how many people you know who " don't like capitalism" even then your sample size is extremely small.
There is a lack of revolutionary potential as a result of succdem policies. In the US this goes without saying you can hardly find any Marxists here.

it may not be real socialism but its a good start

either boomers realize that this isnt as bad as they think

or the capitalist system falls from inflation

it literally a win win

How?

Fascism has always been a result of high inflation not socialism
No its a lose lose

UBI, like most policies, will be molded heavily by who has a say in writing the bill. We can find pretty darn good ideas for implementing UBI, ones that don't further destroy the regular welfare state. We can also find pretty darn bad ones, which basically privatize the concept of welfare.
Now, looking at the world right now, which one do you think will be implemented?

Privatizing welfare most likely

There aren't any good reasons to have ubi

...

it was not suggested by socialists. if by leftists you mean neolibs and succdems then yes it was suggested by 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧leftists🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧. btw UBI is a right wing concept from the 70s championed by milton friedman and friends

So you're saying the enacting of UBI is the harbinger of the revolution? It come fast enough!

Privatization? What that was already public is being privatized under UBI?

Vs. Being dependant on porky? It's funny how all the people are against it argue completely different things. Guy above was saying it's privatization you're saying it's nationalization or whatever.

Again, what's that already public is being privatized or marketized or whatever word you want to use. Yang said his UBI would only not be able to be combined with food stamps, SSI, and section 8 I don't know. SSI is 900 a month and food stamps is only $134 for a one person household. So if you're getting SSI(gotta have some kind of diagnosed disability) and food stamps then I guess you'd decide to turn down the $1000 for your extra $34. It's pretty much impossible to get section 8 as a single person even with a disability to my knowledge. So basically nobody is going to switch from more benefits to less benefits, I don't know why Yang is talking about that shit. Dumb advertising. The only people getting more than a $1000 dollars of shit a month are the people who are already receiving cash assistance in the form of SSI or other programs.

Obviously you want for nothing in life. Homeless people don't turn down a dollar because the person giving it is doing it to feel better about themselves.

No one's knocking your permanent solution. Go revolution comrade.

And I would've revolutioned too! If it wasn't for that meddling Yang and his pesky UBI!

I agree with this one. Yang is a retard for talking about the cost savings of having people (VOLUNTARILY no less) give up their other more expensive form of entitlements in exchange for UBI. I've already detailed above how (excluding free universal healthcare which Yang said he's for and doesn't effect the UBI) that nobody is receiving more than $1000 dollars a month worth of entitlements unless they're already receiving cash, so why would anyone voluntarily switch. Just pure retardation on his part. I guess he can't help but let his inner MBA porky come out sometimes.

Are you actually pulling a "What about the budget! Won't someone think of the budget?!" Who gives a fuck if the state is distressed? Once again completely contradictory bullshit from then aysayers.

YANG GANG SHOULD GET RAPE GANGED

Triggared

Are all of you ferners or Champaign socialists? There is no such thing as public welfare in america. All welfare is privatized in the exact same way as the ubi proposal.

Oh, sure. I don't disagree with that at all. I'm just saying that it's clear that imperialism has been tied with improvements in quality of life and that it makes it very easy to propagandize for.

Wouldn't having neetbux yanked out of their hands as soon as they got it if they accepted it and having their meager incomes dug into further if they didn't choose the neetbux make a very easy way to propagandize against capitalism?

Most people on Zig Forums who rail against UBI have yet to realize that every single cent of welfare ends up in the hands of private companies one way or another.

Yeah foodstamps totally don't end up putting money into Walmart. Medicare totally doesn't go into paying for privately owned medical care facilities. Disability income totally avoids being spent on necessities in the free market. None of this welfare money that comes from taxes on the lower and middle classes ever ends up being filtered through the market into the hands of bourgs who avoided paying taxes.

Christ people on this board are retarded.

That's just incorrect sorry

At least one user gets it.

What world are these people living in. I'd like them to take a moment to explain where all these non privatised government services are so I can have a good laugh.

Worse than the retardation is the obvious bougouise bias. These people have never interacted with someone on welfare let alone be related to someone struggling.

I'm sorry you're mentally retarded and cant bring a single fact to prove you're not.

Im sorry you're retarded thinking you can prove a negative

I've proven all of my statements with facts. If you're going to try and say I'm wrong, bring some facts. Are you Zig Forums trolling?

UBI threads already existing:
8ch.net/leftypol/res/2836715.html
8ch.net/leftypol/res/2810663.html
8ch.net/leftypol/res/2838030.html
8ch.net/leftypol/res/2834961.html ⚓️ (Yang Gang)
8ch.net/leftypol/res/2835306.html ⚓️ (Yang Gang)
8ch.net/leftypol/res/2833838.html ⚓️ (Yang Gang)

paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2017/01/25/what-is-wrong-with-the-idea-of-basic-income/

Jesus Christopher, this nigga ever heard of a tldr or a thesis statement. Had to get through paragraphs to even get to the part related to the title of the article. When he finally gets into ubi its defacto irrelevant to Yang freedom box, because he first starts 9ff with extra taxes paid on the ubi while yang said his ubi is tax free.

You want to break down the rest off that long ass tome and summarize his arguments against ubi that are actually relevant?

haha kys dumbo

Ebin!

Whether short term concessions are desirable for the left is very much debatable, not a matter of common sense.

For well to do Champaign socialists who could care less about receiving what to them is a pittance it is debatable. For those currently oppressed and exploited it is a life changer and possibly the difference between life and death.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ypcs5Sa8oiM&feature=youtu.be

thank you, yes.

Currently employers need to pay their workers at least 1.5x of what they could receive as welfare benefits, whereas UBI, which will very likely come at the expense of welfare (though it would be the same regardless) reduces the costs of reproducing labour-power, therefore leading to lower wages. A lower cost of labour also means there's less of an incentive to automate, and the rate of automation has been steadily dropping for the past decades as it is due to falling wages. There's a reason why billionaires are advocating it. They're buying themselves more time.

Let me get this straight. You're saying ubi will reduce welfare payments(ubi is welfare wtf?) And therefore employers will pay less because people are receiving less welfare. I cant grasp eve. The first part of your post on basic levels. Most individuals are infallible for all welfare benefits in USA besides the 134 a month in foodstamps. If they're receiving SSI because they're disabled or 64+ than they're already receiving ubi at a lower rate than the freedom box (900). If they're on SSI and food stamps the money a month would be almost the same or slightly more in which case they could stick with the slightly higher monthly total they're receiving through SSI and food stamps. So on the first point ubi wont lower anyone's welfare I think that's just a dumb sales pitch yang is making since he said it was going to be voluntary. No one will voluntarily leave more welfare for less welfare. Wages aren't based off of available welfare in america even if that was true. They're determined by supply and demand and minimum wage.

But just once again on the face of it:
EVERY CITIZEN RECEIVING 1000 DOLLARS A MONTH WOULD NOT BE A DECREASE IN WELFARE PAYMENTS!

Why the fuck does this even need to be said. What fucking alternate universe are y'all from?

because it's coming from my money. i don't work hard so you can sit on your ass and take what's left of my money after the jew gov gets their cut to keep the lights on

Anti yang gang confirmed for nazis? Also wtf does this post mean? I only like giving my tax dollars to jews?

this post means the jews in DC get more of your money, congrats
and it's going straight to the niggers, NEETs, and lazy bums who are too useless to make their own

Is anti jew poster the mod who anchored the thread?

You have brought no facts

champagne socialists

I've brought you all the specific dollar amounts of all welfare benefits an individual may be eligible for. This poster already detailed how all usa welfare benefits are simply cash given to people to be given to private businesses just as is ubi. Please bring a counterargument if you have any proof to support it.

Just because private companies benefit from welfare doesn't mean welfare is privatized

Finally a coherent statement. Alright, then how would ubi be any different?

Why don't people understand that to gain wealth one must produce a tangible good or service. If we all just get money for nothing who will provide the goods and services we need. Think farmers, auto workers, bus drivers, you name it….Civilization itself is based on production, just think about it for a bit.

Maybe we should just give every penny to the government and let those in power doll out what they think we need. Are you serious! You want more? Get off your ass and go get it!

retard

And what happens when that wealth is stuck rotting in the fields and laying idle because people can't afford it?

prices drop

And yet that is not how the market largely works because we see it happening in huge amounts.

example?

Like how there's homeless people on the streets who have to beg for food whilst supermarkets throw away huge amounts of overstocked foodstuffs for exceedingly minor package damaging and then pour bleach on it to keep people from digging it out of the trash.

Have you ever read Marx or capital?
Marx answered your question already. Labor theory of value.
If prices dropped below the cost to create the product the business would not last.

So I guess that means you have no response but still wanted to reply(again).

you haven't provided any evidence for why welfare is privatized