International "Socialist" Organization collapsing

BASED

MADE BY BIDEN GANG

I can confirm this

I have a theory that the only reason people are having less sex today is because, in the past, there was more rape. There was a sudden cultural shift that boomers and older x-ers were unprepared for when the most common forms of rape suddenly weren't okay anymore. But they didn't realize times had changed, and kept raping, and then oopsie they get caught. And then once they get caught and one person comes forward, well, turns out they have a long history of rape going back for years and all those other people want to come forward too in the new cultural environment.

The Wooswoos has a different story (wsws.org/en/articles/2019/04/02/inte-a02.html). A choice quote:

We don't know the particulars of the case in question, but I'd have to agree with the WSWS assessment to some extent; sex panics stink of the US middle class in the extreme. Surprised to see rape accusations simply taken at face value here, but I suppose, or hope, it's mainly because ☭TANKIE☭s want to shit on trots at all opportunities, rather than because a lot of us now believe mere accusations.

Did we get a radlib infestation over the last two weeks or what? I don't remember it being this bad when I left.

This. WSWS has been been nothing but principled. Comparing them to the reformist liberal groups pretending to be trots is really unfair.

I’m a Trot, but the state not only American trot parties but the US left in general is extremely fragmented and incoherent. Some of the last major hard left Trots have really fallen into just full failing of the Dems, SAlt and ISO have been leaning hard into the Bernie crowd which is really pathetic as a supposedly principled revolutionary org, but also they’ve had increasingly muddled politics for decades. And as the adage goes, unclear and wrong politics can often stem from and lead to organizational fun and corruption. I have friends in the ISO, and it’s been a shot show from the outside. I hope many of the comrades go back into the struggle somehow, but especially the women, people of color, lgbt, and young members in general are feeling rightfully very disillusioned and hopeless right now. ISO wasn’t a healthy org, it was dominated by the same old farts for far far too long, and you can see the fruits of that ossification here, they were sheltering rapists. It’s more than understandable that as the leadership was finally unseated after much unrest, and all this rape cover up bullshit came to light in addition to abuse of power in party democracy already felt, I understand fully why comrades were disgusted and wanted to burn the whole thing. ISO hasn’t been healthy in a while, so I’m not sad to see the org go, but I am worried about a large amount of comrades being dissuaded from staying in the struggle.

Tbh I doubt Haymarket will dissolve: it's too large for it now (ironically, like most trot projects: the project outgrows the party itself). If ISO does go under I can see people stepping in to save Haymarket books.

youtu.be/Az9O-eD-lhk
Also here's a really good lecture from the CPB on the history of British Trotskyism.

Why are you trots so sanctimonious and sectarian about every other party and group, except when it comes to rape allegations? It's almost like you have something to hide.

Dude, I'm not a trot and frankly I think WSWS is obnoxious af. I just respect them for being principled to the insane even sectarian degree they are.

sweet, fuck them

as someone who recently joined a trotskyist org, i have no sympathy for sexual abuse. my position is that the org is not capable of handling such accusations and the police should be involved.

i do not see the same potential in my own organization, as there is no "elite" of the organization, who stand over and above the party, and direct it. this even as we are democratic centralist! but it shows the importance of member education as a factor against bureaucracy.

Dude join the SEP.

Most “Trots" are just liberals. However the SEP is firmly anti-liberal. As such their the best Trot org, at least in Burgerland.

Wtf is wrong with you. Letting the police decide weather or not to lock up leftists is a horrible idea.

A lot of the “victims” are just women trying to advance their position in society and are opportunists. Rarely are they telling the truth. The only way to know if they are telling the truth is to do an investigation. But because radical groups can’t trust the police the investigation must be done internally by the party. Also winking at and completing a girl/twink isn’t rape, it isn’t sexual assault, it’s normal behavior.

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how is a political organization capable of handling sexual abuse allegations? we see exactly what happens when an organization tries to do this.

that's why making it a police matter avoids all of this shit. it's not up to the party politics.

also nice incel shit.

The group the WSWS was born from was head by a guy, Healy, who’s party disintegrated because of a Weinstein-level rape scandal involving nearly 30 women. Healy infamously accepted money from Saddam to write articles condoning Iraq’s campaign to brutally murder local Communists and rejecting feminism from the right saying that the “working class hates faggots and so do we”. The organization is a cult centered around dear leader North who operates it like a fucking capitalist enterprise. Their “principled” stances (such as their disgusting rejection of unaffalliated unions) are at best ultra-left nonsense and at worst exist to justify rabid opportunism (such as their rejection of “identity politics” masking a fundamentally conservative positions that doesn’t actually address idpol as such).

...

It is perfectly in line with the petit-bourgeois idpol mentality that infects Americans, temporarily embarassed millionaires oppressed (cannot become big porky) because of [outgroup].

They brought this on themselves. Politics should not be a social club.

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using police for anything other than SWATting reactionaries is terrible.

The way all orgs should: expulsion and public condemnation. A goddamn scandal involving the personal failures of individuals shouldnt liquidate the organization unless the organization had nothing real to base itself on in the first place. Think about it for a moment. If a political party was truly worth its name, an actual party that adressed real political concerns, then a scandal would just be a bump on the road, a temporary setback, that tomorrow people who are comitted to the project return to. But no, the reason why these activist sects end up collapsing is because their actual politics is all in paper and the actual organization is either comprised of an ossified leadership grounded in the conservatism of simply being there for years or the revolving door of brainless activism.

Can you twitter ☭TANKIE☭s stop. Their is nothing wrong with the ultraleft, and their is nothing wrong with being anti-idpol. Also North is only a capitalist in the sence Eagles was a capitalist. Pics related are you.

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it's easy to think of the police solely in their roles as defenders of the bourgeois state, but their role is a bit more comprehensive than that, as they've adapted to serving petty interests in their spare time (criminal justice in general, not merely repressing the working class). the police can be used effectively, to draw lines in the sand is childishness.

i totally agree - but we're talking about different stages of the event. at the point of accusation, should the organization expulse and condemn? i think that it's safe to put everyone involved on hiatus and let the police handle the case and when all is said and done, remove any offenders from the organization. it should never even be a scandal is my point.

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Yeah, uh, this is on right
Ahem,
Fuck Trots!
Toast, boys

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Nothing pisses me off more than "ML" trannies. They can all fuck off and go join fascist trannies, to keep them is no benefit.

Shut the fuck up cuck. Im not defending identity politics, I’m criticizing the SEP’s attacks on idpol from the right. Identity politics is a bane on the Left, allowing for the leadership for the struggle of the oppressed to be assumed by bourgeois elements who’s real interest conflict with the mass of people they supposedly represent. Intersectionality is at best formalist liberalism that allows for the law as it currently exists to recognize the convergence of different systems of oppression without actually clarifying the dynamics of such systems, giving only formal symbolic categories that in truth obscure their underlying content. Which in turn, allows for the oppression olympics bullshit and bourgeois class leadership. The problem however, is with idpols approach at clarifying oppression and using that clarification to practically translate it into a collective politics under the auspices of radical labor - not that the “oppression” doesnt exist.

The truth about the SEP is that it doesnt actually attempt to overcome in theory and in practice these problems, but instead engorges itself in ultra-left attitudes that mask their fundamenrally rightward conservative stance on the issues at hand. They are not merely incapable of adressing real problems, they refuse to. (Like how they dismissed anti-racism in the aftermath of the Trayvon Martin shooting) The fact that racism emerged from class society does not mean that the struggle against racism isnt a centerpiece for the struggle for an independent working class politics. In fact, if the working class is to assert itself as the vanguard of the whole of society, its party must take up the task of uniting the whole of the oppressed under its banner.

I dont need to give any examples about the WSWS condoning rapists, given their website is splattered with articles complaining about “witch hunts”. It is one thing to criticize MeToo for its excesses and anti-social inplications, its another to rush to the defense of Weinstein and his ilk. No, for the SEP, the Left must take the sides of literal rapists (and pedophiles at that!) in the name of “sexual freedom”.

We shouldn’t allow the police any room to interfere in any way with the internal workings of our organizations. The whole purpose of the police force in this regard is for the destruction of our organizations. Once the offender has been expelled and denounced, they will no longer be part of the party.

At least ML trannies don't rape people. Their dicks don't work.
Bad Trots who rape people should be reeducated and turned into girls.

I'm the author of the other post, and I'm not a trot either, if the whole "tankies want to shit on trots" thing didn't give it away.

You had actual radlibs like posting their idiot takes, though, and no one seemed to be giving a shit.

Maybe you're not from the US, but "anti-racism" in the US is Democratic Party-led liberalism. It looks like they took the side of Trayvon Martin during the case regardless.
>wsws.org/en/articles/2013/07/15/zimm-j15.html

lol "and pedophiles at that!" Overwrought moral indignation isn't a replacement for analysis.

Go back to Twitter.

Ok Hillary, this isn’t your board.

Noting wrong with ultraleftism though.

But conservatives are right on social issues though. Luckily for us their is a political party that is able to recognize this while also criticizing capitalism, the SEP.

Again the SEP is correct again. The shooter was a hispanic.

Racism is as important issue, but it’s nowhere as important as class politics. Class struggle comes before all else.

Yes, but this must be done is a way that doesn’t alienate white workers. This is another task where the SEP succeeds again, where they have lead multiracial, international class based worker committees to protest the closing of Auto factories. ☭TANKIE☭ Uni Cults haven’t. This is because the SEP is the true vanguard of proletarian politics.
wsws.org/en/articles/2019/02/12/ints-f12.html

The SEP is defending the right to a trial by jury,, something that should be universal and is more important than listen and believe.

Rejecting anti-racism means leaving the field of leadership to liberalism and the Democratic Party. The fact that the political form that many in the Left take today merely tails behind the Democrats is used to buttress a refusal to engage. Rather than offering a practical solution, the SEP’s ultra-left stance merely abandons the struggle for leadership and condemns at a glance the black masses to the black bourgeoisie, while paying lip service to “class struggle”. The SEP are at this point Anarchists in “Marxist” garb.

All fucking lies. Every leftist org in the US, MINUS THE SEP hates white people and promotes white guilt.

Look at my flag user, then tell me blasting folk music and incorporating NABPP isn't kino for all niggers

Anti-racism is a left-liberal project to create a more inclusive capitalism for a thin layer of non-white professional-managerials and is entirely unmoored from material analysis. There can be Marxist "anti-racism," but it isn't liberal anti-racism that treats "race" in the sloppy, idealist way.

Anti-racism as a movement is generally comprised of organizations staffed by the non-white middle class and bourgeoisie who supplicate the Democratic Party for help. The black masses have almost nothing to do with these organizations, nor are the organizations even leading any such masses of black or non-white workers.

Uh huh, great way of addressing my argument. Fact of the matter is that the SEP take up shitty ultra-left tactics and only offer abstractions as alternatives. Like shit, you’re going to argue for the need for a multiracial labor coalition while rejecting the existing unions? So the only practical means of struggle will just be… nothing because the SEP’s “unions” are paper organizations. The party of the vanguard, if it is worthy of the name, must assert itself as vanguard, leader, over the whole of the oppressed, participating at every expression of oppression and guiding forward even the most backwards elements. Fucking shit, the Bolsheviks entered into the goddamn Zubatov unions organized by the fucking Black Hundreds, literal fascist organizations. But no! The Left cannot even engage with orgs with lib leaders, we have to wait for some mythical “working class” to come save us, a working class that does not only have any independent - mass - organizations precisely because of the Democrats and their rightist and ultra-left *cough* SEP *cough* allies!

If they don't let you say the n-word, that's anti-racist. If they don't let you speak because you're a white person, that's deeply triggering and problematic. Know the difference!

What universe do you live in? This has been done again and again by left-wing organizations, only to be met with failure, debasement of goals ("opportunism"), or integration into those liberal organizations.

You’re right. What I’m arguing for isn’t to collapse into the existing organizations, which only exist to affirm the power of the black bourgeoisie, but to participate specifically to assert the working class’s political independence. Refusing to even engage means allowing for the “spontaneous” (it is difficult to call the elemental organization “spontaneous” given the long history of the black bourgeoisie at this point) leadership to be assumed by bourgeois elements.

Also the solution to idpol isnt a labor party but a communist party. Reed’s social-democratism is just reproducing the old labor-liberal politics “alliance” of Rustin and Randolph that helped build the foundation for the problem of the lack of an independent working class politics.

Should also add that the recent WSWS article on the fall of ISO even points to how well-placed trade union bureaucrats were in the organization, only for these elements to help end ISO. It isn't that left-wing organizations in general refuse to engage; they do engage, and this engagement itself often proves a source of problems, if it's successful at all.

Trade unions politically are not even as radical as they were thirty years ago, and the union bureaucrats have a basic low-level antagonism with the direction of any legitimate socialist organization. I'm not absolutely convinced of the SEP's position on trade unions, but their position is based on experience.

Pic related are what the majority of non-SEP left orgs in the US are like.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_People's_Socialist_Party

They aren’t they do shit all the time. And they aren’t unions, their workplace comities.
wsws.org/en/articles/2019/03/20/conf-m20.html

Times have changes. Unions have been integrated into the bourgeois bureaucratic state.

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How does that make the SEP better than the IWW, you silly Trot?

I’m not arguing that the problem in general with the Left today is that of refusal to engage, I’m arguing that the SEP cannot offer the alternative. The problem with those that are engaging is that they arent attempting to cause a split. Their aim is to pressure the Democrats, not to defeat the Democrats. Their “criticism” is just to justify their complete support for the liberal leadership. Refusing to engage, however, means stifling the potential of realizing that split. The problem is the tactic isnt used properly.

There isnt anything wrong with the SEP’s criticism of the collapse of the ISO. If there is anything I can praise of the WSWS, it is a modern online newspaper with a popular audience - something most “parties” dont have.

You can't change it from inside out by slipping subtle hints in or out right being revolutionary somehow?

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Trots that are having consensual relations en masse with young college girls are the opposite of incels. It is a shame to see Lenin's hat be worn by a radlib.

clockwork. i even like Trotsky but Trots are a scourge

That pic looks like a pretty decent org tho. Also we now have Marxist Center, For the People, and a newly energized IWW, with budding New Afrikan Black Panther Party. You 20th century LARPers, every longstanding yet somehow tiny sect of Trots, MLs and anarchists, are thankfully being phased out.

This is my favorite sentence about the ISO from that article from the Weird Sex Web Site:

David North, if you're reading this: get a fucking grip!

My impression is that the ISO was one of these obsolete "press" parties. I don't literally mean the newspaper (Trot joke) but the whole way of doing things is wrapped up in a print mentality in which there's a party line and a publisher that I don't think translates into the 21st century very well as way of organizing the "core" of the party.

Like, if you're a college student, your first encounter with socialism in the U.S. would be the ISO in many places, and resources to learn about this stuff is hard to come by, but the ISO provided that and it was all ready for you. I have been to a few ISO meetings (was never a member) and they'd have Haymarket books for sale, etc. – this was at a college campus, naturally enough. There was the paper, there was Haymarket, and you'd be expected to read Tony Cliff and follow the line. But most people getting involved in the left today are doing it online and they can follow a variety of different people with different views, because it's happening on Twitter.

Joe Biden and the ISO brought down by #MeToo in the same week. 1970s-era neoliberalism and socialist microsects are both dying… a new era begins…

They were just radlibs, it's a good thing ISO collapses

fuck off

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ment to post

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youtube.com/watch?v=c9i9ZQ0231E

That's a different group

ISO should filter to "Imperial Support Organization"

Understandable mistake but that's a wildly different group.

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i am so fucking mad goddamn

This is a very good point, but Trot cultist perversions don't really reflect the way that Iskra/Pravda/etc actually worked.

If you can't see that #MeToo is being used as an authoritarian maneuver then you're truly a fucking retard like this guy

The Bourgeoisie is simply using unverified claims of sexual assualt to push forward a reactionary agenda that no doubt will be used to discredit actual socialists in the future.

Org members shouldn't be fucking each other period. Even Lenin had issues due to fraternization. "Romance" or whatever you want to call it has no place in a movement's bureaucracy.

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