I agree with marxist leninist economics, I think Marx is right about class, colonialism, imperialism, and about revolutionary struggle. I'm an Irish Catholic, so I understand revolutionary struggle. What I can't get past is the hatred for my mother church. I can't understand the persecution of innocent Catholics from almost every communist regime/movement in history. This is what repulses me from your cause. I genuinely want an open discussion here, why must Catholicism be persecuted under a Communist state?
Catholic Marxism
Lucas Russell
Luke Martin
catholic church supported the nazis
Ryder Roberts
In republican Spain the church sided with Franco so they unironically deserved what they got. Many of the IRA were catholic, have you read anything by James Connolly? There’s a catholic Marxist
Dylan Baker
Whether you like it or not Christianity, like any other religion, has diminishing returns as far as positive qualities goes. For the most part religion distracts people from legitimate and real solutions to problems so they instead pray or whatever which does nothing to get people out of their predicaments. Religion is inherently illogical, unscientific, and holds humanity back to an age of barbarism instead of pushing us forward.
I can tell you at least from the perspective of an American that if religion continues to reign in my country we will never see a socialist revolution. And if we ever did see a mix of Socialism and religion like the Irish did in the past that relationship would quickly turn sour after the revolution was successful as these two types of belief systems are water and oil to one another.
Jason Green
I have read James Connolly, however my message is to marxist leninists in particular, and James Connolly doesn't advocate the poor treatment of Catholics like they do. Thank you for adding to the discussion. I understand you see me and my church as a nuisance, this is why I want to dialogue with you.
Kayden Evans
The institution is rotten and reactionary to the core, it has reactionary interests at heart. It wants to preserve its wealth and the higher clergy is tied at the waist to the bourgeois and aristocratic classes and shares their interests. Their doctrine goes so far as to enshrine private property and make every precaution so that no diligent catholic can in good faith be on the left.
When the Church acts as a haven for reactionary terrorists, wreckers, saboteurs and uses the protective mantle of innocent faith as a cover for undermining socialism, socialism will mercilessly shut it down.
If you denounce the pope, the authority of the clergy, the institution of the church and its doctrines and still want to identify as a catholic then you're welcome to come along with us be you a layman or priest yourself, but if you don't and your loyalty to the church is greater than to the interests of the working class then there will very quickly come a point when those interests will class and you will be marching with the black ranks of fascist reaction.
Thomas James
Okay, answer me this OP, if you had to choose between your marxism or your Catholicism, which would you choose?
Eli Peterson
We're not out to get innocent catholics. We are just going to take all the power away from the church.
Jonathan Edwards
Are you even a Christian at that point?
Daniel Martinez
jews
unironically
Liam Morales
Certainly not Catholic by any standard other than a self-defined one. Its heresy, that or protestantism, which is just a bunch of heresies that got so big they had to acknowledge them as 'wrong, but still christian' just to stop the killing.
Jaxson Garcia
Read Alasdair MacIntyre
Nicholas Gonzalez
Also this, and everyone should.
Liam Richardson
because christcoms are the worst posters on this board
Benjamin James
This would only be necessary if most catholics of a nation end up being fervent anticommunists and actively try to attack the revolution. We need to let catholics and any religious person know that they are perfectly capable of being religious and communists at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive.
Cooper Collins
i think most people get it, christians just have a victim complex
Nathan Powell
I mean pretty much all Christcoms come from Catholic backgrounds. Why bring the church into it?
Wyatt Ortiz
i dont really see you as a nuicance, look at the sandinistas in nicaragua that was a christian (catholic)socialist revolution
Chase Murphy
the Catholics spoke against the Nazis and were slaughtered but ok
Juan Walker
it shouldn't be. power-hungry state commies will say they only want to suppress religion because of its reactionary history but I think their main goal is ideological hegemony tbh. don't get me wrong, organized religion is bad, but if the only way to establish communism is to burn churches and rape nuns like the spanish republicans, or worse, literally ethnically cleanse religious minorities like Stalin or Hoxha, then you can count me out. but I think there are more humane and less futile alternatives to simply trying to erase millennia of history like that
Easton Roberts
I honestly get the idea that communism allows for far greater fostering of christian virtue than communism. I think you OP should maintain that virtue and seek to improve it in those around you, and discuss the aspects of capitalism which inevitably lead to its demise.
Dominic Miller
The catholic church exists to protect, organize, and fund rapists.
Nicholas Evans
We tried that, turns out the Religious organizations always return to Capitalism and reactionary politics or the lack of a strong hand allows dissenters and CIA infiltrators to destroy what was made. You should see what the Orthodox church is up to these days even after being allowed to co-exist in the USSR. The goddam Tsar is Canonized.
If it was literally the only way and your ditching Marxism because some people have to be repressed your a fucking idealist red liberal and you can join them for being such a idealist. Millions of people are going to have to be killed in wars thousands of famines in countries ravaged by battle and tens of millions more socially,culturally and politically repressed. Because if we don't do this the entire world is going to fucking die thanks to climate change or Capitalistic shiteaters making some horrible cyberpunk tier place where the poor are routinely killed.
World Wide Red Terror new cultural revolution, may the reactionary not even have a damp hole to hide in.
"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
We're dealing with the fate of our world and all life on it as we know it and for everyday we don't do this thousands everyday starve to death or die of preventable diseases and your worried about what happens to the scumbags who allow this. May the Tsar his children and his dogs all burn in hell
Jaxson Brown
Man it somewhat bothers me how edgy you have to be to be a communist. Oh well.
Camden Rodriguez
As opposed to some libshit so intent on remaining peaceful they'll accomplish nothing and millions more will die or he'll be swept up by the Fascists who don't give a shit about him.
Look at what happened to Chile a democratically elected Socialist government overthrown by a US supported military coup which then went on to execute and torture with rape and violence thousands of people and union supporters. You're a fool if you think the Bourgeoisie will just let you let vote in Marxists and allow their profits and empires to collapse. Even decolonization was incredibly violent and some places even held strictly neo-fash views until their last leaders and soldiers were hunted down.
David Ward
Religion is BS. Socialism isn't. Make the difference.
Blake Phillips
I completely agree with you though. Tbh one of the few criticisms rightwingers have of marxism that I agree with and recognize as necessary is that communism will always be violent. Yes, I'm for a violent revolution if it's what it takes to establish socialism. Yes, as undesirable as it may be people will have to be killed. So I don't get why you are being such an edgelord with an already edgy ideology.
Isaiah Young
OP you like getting buggered by the priest Ah?
Luis Hill
I'm not saying you have to be violent for the sake of being violent but yeah to actually establish Socialism unless some magic thing happens it's certainly going to require it. Anyway edgy is Fascist who wish to keep people dying, i wish to end that and the only way to end it is by fighting back, in some sense it is the Liberal who is the edgiest of them all since they know everything bad with the world yet live in ignorance or apathy to it all. Like the French revolution Monarchists would call them edgy but today almost everyone looks upon them as rightfully chopping off a Tyrants head to secure themselves food. Violence isn't necessarily edgy like Poles fighting back at Germany is not edgy.
Brody Bennett
Hey, the dogs did nothing wrong.
He's kinda right though. Sure, he's phrasing it like an edgelord, but pretending that socialism doesn't require widespread violence and repression to be achieved is just naive. It saddens me that this is the case and I fucking hate violence and suffering, but we have to be prepared for the reality of a socialist revolution.
Tradition, in and of itself, has no inherent virtue. If a nation's or religion's history can be used to further class consciousness or unite the proletariat, then sure, make use of it. But religion isn't perfect. There certainly are some people who's leftist ideas were a result of their religious beliefs (see christcoms on here, Leo Tolstoy, etc), but religion overwhelmingly serves a reactionary purpose. It reflects the ideology and morality of past ages.
In the creation of a socialist state, and the move towards communism, religion is something that must be addressed at some point. That said, violence and religious repression would usually be counter-intuitive, and strengthen people's religious beliefs by turning them into martyrs.
Grayson Turner
This is a good example but there's a reason why most if not all would not consider this edgy. Basically because the mainstream point of view of this conflict is that the poles were the victims here and also because their self-defense was 100% explicit and legitimate against the germans. Only nazi retards buy that bullshit false-flag Hitler did. But the case with communists is that most people wouldn't see our fight as legitimate; or "defending" anything. But the truth is communism is about defending, not attacking. In a literal sense obviously communists are the attackers if they initiate a revolution, but a revolution is done to defend many things. The lives of the workers against the predatory capitalists, the right to have a life with dignity and purpose. Essentially defending what makes us human is what communism is. Liberals always say that commies are pessimistic and whatever the fuck, but much like what you said, liberals are the true pessimists when they realize something is shit and go "oh well, it could be worse". The communist won't do that, he'll go "it could be a hell of a lot better too". That right there is defending life.
Kayden Stewart
There's literally nothing wrong with christian communism. It doesn't need to be marxist (there's nothing inherently wrong with marxism though) it just needs to exist and have its adherents approach it with the same zeal that they use to promote Christianity. Also Christianity arguably invented communism anyways so you don't need to drag marx into your political ideology. Just be a christcom and support the third world as it burns the US and its vassal states to the fucking ground.
Juan Martinez
I agree that organized religion favors the status quo but if entire cultures made up of literally billions of people need to die or be suppressed into virtual nonexistence before you realize your goals then why would anyone support you and how am I the idealist?
no, I'm worried about the innocent religious people who would inevitably get caught in the crossfire. we aren't inherently reactionary so persecuting us seems like bad praxis at best and fascist bullshit at worst.
Logan Gray
Asher Thompson
there is no God, comrade….
Andrew Rogers
"Mother Church" excommunicated communists. Why do you align yourself with an organization that wishes to punish you with eternal hellfire for standing with the working class?
Benjamin Adams
And in Poland they supported fascists. Catholics are minority in Germany this is why they didn’t support nazis.
Noah Cook
Certain subsets of entire cultures and ways of life are reactionary and must be stamped out. Peacefully preferably as usual but the Islamic treatment of women,Indian caste system,genital mutilation in Africa,suburbia white picket fence bourgious worshiping Americanization,Deep American South racism, Neet waifu culture in Japan,South Korean kpop celebrity worship are just some elements of society which will have to be changed under Socialism, and those who fight to preserve these terrible cultural institutions will have to be removed as capitalism has not just produced a now outdated economic system but it seeps into the very way people interact with each-other on a personal basis something as personal as a male and female relationship has been changed by Capitalism the Wedding ring for example is just one way Capitalism has marketed love.
Because we educate the Proletariat and rise up and change that. It happened in China it happened in Korea and in the USSR but they were able to tear the USSR down and Russia is feeling the effects of Capitalistic control over society. In-fact that's what many Soviet aligned Arab countries were before America got involved notably Afghanistan was reforming and educating the population away from Feudal and Barbaric religious practices before Islamic extremists backed by the US succeeded in taking power. And at the end of the day Political power comes out the barrel of a gun and Communists aren't exactly afraid of pointing a few guns.
Even then you can slowly change these institutions I wouldn't expect a highly religious country to not be up in arms about religious repression but change they will.
It is a sad fact innocents will vanish, in the Russian civil war the Green armies for instance mostly just peasants who just wanted to stay out of the war were caught in the crossfire, many German civilians during ww2 obviously would lean to liberal or even Socialist Anti-Nazi views were pounded into dust by Aerial bombardments but it was far better for them to be sadly killed then let Hitler remain. This is a sad fact because the imperialist powers will not let it happen peacefully, the numerous South American coups are proof the US is not going to let a willing population have Socialism even if they want it, therefore you have to fight them and their numerous counterrevolutionary pawns they will employ of which Religious individuals are often associated.
Yet you protect reactionary institutions, for every Communist leaning Christian there are 50 right wing Evangelicals funding Israeli death squads.Large amounts of civilians under Nazi rule who didn't vote for the Nazi's although innocent had to be subject to large scale bombing due to them participating in the creation and maintenance of the Nazi war machine as factory workers or foot soldiers.
War and revolution is not a bloodless nor clean thing. Does it mean just line them all up against a wall? Of course not that's needlessly cruel and bloodlusty. Does it mean curb the power of the Church remove it from schools and repress those who fight against this? Yes
Jeremiah Turner
as far as i know this never happened or if it did they were isolated incidents. if you seriously believe nationalist propaganda i have to question your allegiances
Evan Bell
Fun fact: Some have noted an similarity in the philosophy of Marxism-Leninism & Thomism such as JM Bocheński
Sebastian Green
Yeah no. Just because religion is a system we're used to doesn't mean it's not complete utter bullshit. We're used to capitalism too but you don't see criticisms of it met with being called an edgy kid because if you're smart you realize capitalism (like religion) doesn't have to be a default accepted thing in society.
Jacob Wright
atheism is baby’s first redpill
If your childhood indoctrination is too strong to dispense with Catholicism, I don’t see how you could be chill with marx
Gavin Collins
Which one of you made this?
reddit.com
Hunter Robinson
Ian Murphy
Cathcucks not even once. Even nihilists are more revolutionary than them.
en.wikipedia.org
Samuel Flores
acceptable
unacceptable
Logan Morales
not trying to say Islam is better than Christianity, just that there's a difference between decreasing religion's power in the public sphere and attempting to eradicate it. "class conscious" religious people organizing together sounds much more desirable and plausible to me than state atheism