So as far as the UK is concerned, could the labor-party ever function as a vanguard party in the UK?
After researching into Jeremy Corbyn and reading the labor party manifesto, I'm somewhat concerned that Jeremy Corbyn's supposed socialism never seems to go any further than liberal reforms and supporting mutualist co-ops (which tend to fail or under-perform in capitalist economies. Badmouse made a video on why this is the case: youtube.com/watch?v=yAxajtiRatg).
When Corbyn talks about capitalism and socialism, he only ever goes as far as making sort of vague statements about how we need to help the poor, how the rich are oppressive, but will never go any further into detail in terms of discussing things like how capitalist exploitation actually works ("private property, stealing surplus, e.c.t.), and I've never heard him advocate for the common ownership of the means of production.
I get the impression that Jeremy Corbyn is (not in his ideology but in his actions) just a liberal social democrat.
How should we tread Jeremy Corbyn and the labor party? Should we reject he labor party as liberals posing as capitalists?
I don't think there's really any point to engaging in electoral politics in an imperialist country like Britain. All the nice socdemmy stuff like Atlee came at the expense of people off in the periphery. Any reforms you get at this stage of accumulation are just going to get treated like Chavismo if it's at all genuine in the face of US Neoliberal hegemony
'We' brits will do whatever we want, while you burgers can watch from afar.
Holy shit this post is so burger'ed that i dont even know where to start.
He's a social democrat not a socialist or leftist by anymeans
Whats more interesting/important is that John McDonnell, who continues to this day to say he will "destroy capitalism" is in charge of Labour economic policy. The main difference between Corbyn and other soc-dem leaders of Labour is his anti-imperialism. He has pretty much spent his whole life fighting against British military deployment in foreign wars.
This is typical for socdem types.
They campaign against foreign wars but what you don't understand is that war isn't the only form of imperialism
No, they usually don't.
Yes they do. All politicians support imperialism currently
No, I meant socdem types aren't against imperialist wars.
They just use it as a vote buying tool
Yes, that is why Corbyn is not your typical Ebert socdem.
He still supports imperialism just not imperial wars
He has spent a lot of time campaigning against "softer" imperialisms as well. He is fairly Eurosceptic, doesn't like the IMF/world Bank ect
Yeah typical succdem
antisemite(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
You need to look into this man, and "Bennism". Basically, Corbyn's strategy is that of OG Marxist Social Democracy. The plan is legitimately to gradually transition to socialism but only time can tell if it'll work.
If Labour manage to nationalize major industries, introduce obligatory worker co-ownership of companies then that would be a pretty darn good path.
Corbyn knows that imperialism isn't just war though, and it really isn't run of the mill socdem to be genuinely anti-imperialst as Corbyn is.
Wtf I love social democracy now You know it's not true that most socdems are like this, stop ebigly trolling and contribute to genuine discussion
yeh i want my wages up and my rent cheap bbz so no
That's the manifesto baby!
Also lol at "Corbyn is an imperialist", Yeah I mean he's only: Opposed the Iraq and Afghanistan war Opposed bombing in Libya and Syria Opposed the regime change against Maduro Fought Israeli and South African apartheid for fucking decades Declared he will enact an arms embargo on Israel and Saudi Arabia Declared he will pass an Irish-style BDS law Stated he will actively allow the Chagos Islanders to return to their isles (one of the last remaining crimes of British colonialism) and finally, pissed off NATO-sycophants so much they left and started a party literally called CUK.
But nah he's not anti-imperialist tbh.
please alaborate on this, it sounds like a good laugh.
He is no Xi Jinping, but he's an outstanding leftist nonetheless.
Am I taking crazy pills or too dumb in theory because I am pretty sure Corbyn being PM who would either a) succeed in making UK more susceptible or progressing in the transition to socialism b) showcase the flaws in bourgeois democracy in any meaningful socialist reform and refuel radical revolution to depose the current government to invoke a)
Corbyn is no socialist just a succdem deal with it
I bet you follow Phil Greaves
You're from Sussex? Then your education system must be shit down there as you have an inability to fucking read.
I never said you did, not surprised that you can't read. If your going to argue that Corbyn isn't socialist, could you at least actually argue it? Your literally just saying "socdem" over and over again, you've provided zero arguements. yank
Also loved the fact we all glossed-over that this analysis relies on vanguard parties being the only vehicle of bringing socialism.
He's a succdem you don't need arguments for that. You need arguments to prove that he's anything but
How can we prove he is a socialist if you don't define a socdem for us?
How can an honest political discussion take place with people who are ignorant of current political terminology
Do you honestly believe Corbyn is a fucking socialist? You must also think AOC or bernie are socialists. Imagine being hoodwinked for the 100th time yet having the audacity to post your dumbfuck opinions still.
I have the feeling user pointing out Corbyn believes in the abolition of capitalism, as does his chancellor, is not going to change your mind…
Yet every single thing he has DONE outside of saying words has gone towards emboldening neo-liberal policies and the endorsement of its institutions like the EU.
As I said, HOODWINKED. Another naive child who gets too invested in words. Probably thought Obama was a socialist too.
Gotta source on that cheif?
Also PUTTING words IN Capitals is NOT an ARGUMENT.
This board is supposedly "radical" yet again and again we have to explain simple concepts to "disciplined" "socialists" here. It's strange, almost like most of you don't know what you're talking about. Worst is a lot of newcomers will be fooled by you idiots who are ACTIVELY revising the definitions of socialism/communism. Shame.
Corbyn will be the 21st century's Salvador Allende
He's being used to shift the overton window, a basic socdem like him will be the "furthest left" one could dare to go.
Lamo this post is schizo to the fucking max. There isn't an argument here, merely verbal diarrhea. The best part is "He spoke to Bill Gates TRAITORRRRRRR!!!!!". This is some ultra bollocks.
You wanted a source, I provided sources. Your smallbrain implodes and you get angry at said sources. I think the issue is with you being an idiot. I really love how you chose that one image out of all the articles I posted though! Stellar work my man!
And bill gates isn't some politically neutral character, he's the quintessential neoliberal who advocated for eugenics in Africa and other third world countries.
One of the sources is just saying "austerity is a thing and taxes are going up" yes this is Corbyn's fault and obviously proves how he is a stooge of Porky… You're not making arguments, you're just getting angry and spewing insults like a year 9 who's had too much sugar..
Point me to that one source I posted.
I'm guessing that's the second tweet, you should have opened the replies. You know, as I posted that like I predicted what your response would be. You're disingenuous and slimy, a typical reformist, like corbyn. Those cuts were brought in through LABOUR councils POST-CORBYN, he gave the go for most of these cuts. Of course he would never admit to this, what politician would? However the facts are there. Stop falling for pretty rhetoric please, be an actual marxist.
Posted that link*
Holy shit mate simmer d. If you were a bit calmer you could construct an argument, I looked at the singular reply and you just say "stuff is not good".
You're argument relies not on critiquing praxis or policy, but just pointing to things and saying "THEY'RE BAD AND HE LIKE BAD THING". But what else is to be expected from an ultra.
Quick question, are you a member of CPGB-ML per chance?
He doesn't only "like" bad things, he enables those very bad things as does his party. Am I saying he's some maniacal overlord of labour? No, I never implied that so don't strawman me. He is in charge of labour, what labour does he should be culpable for,, or at least answer for unless you have another definition of leadership. This is all indicative of what's to come if labour comes into power, disappointment and the rescinding of all his promises.
Why is this a concern?
Lol not that guy but you fucking are aren't you? Don't accuse other people of being slimy and then avoid questions like this, answer it.
Labour is structured differently than most bourgeois parties. There is a significant chance it will be pushed even further left if the Brexit chaos remains.
Corbyn is definitely left of Sanders, I'd say.
No, I don't think so, but that's fine. People like Corbyn are the reason for the term "critical support".
I clicked on all your links. I didn't find anything that would show that Corbyn is hostile towards workers or a traitor of the proletariat.
No he is making himself the new center. He is the anti-Thatcher.
By making himself the "new" center, he's actually making himself the old center - the centrists that built Britain after the war. Yes to private firms and small businessowners, yes to NHS and nationalized public transport etc.
LMAO M A O
He is probably closer to Micheal Foot than Atlee. And even McDonnell already said coops and worker ownership in firms in his plans.
Fuck off concern troll.
Isn't the shadow chancellor of the labour party a Trotskyist?
Brits are under the impression Trotsky was a good libertarian democratic guy. Blame Orwell.
No, he comes from the bennite tradition (Marxism but dem soc) of the Labour party, the same as Corbyn. The trots have been kept out of the party mainly by momentum.
After that video of soldiers shooting at Corbyn I'd be more comfortable with Militant and anime Trotsky than Momentum.
McDonnell is not a trot.
Jeremy Corbyn along with almost the entirety of the mainstream left in the UK is not genuine. He is an establishment stooge in a socialist costume. Except when he is wearing a capitalist costume such as a suit. Then he is an establishment stooge in a capitalist costume wearing a red tie. He has no idea what it is to be working class and be chewed up by the capitalist system he pretends he will reform. He simply says the slogans the left wants to hear and for that he is more dangerous to our cause than anyone else in British politics. The fact is Jeremy has no intention of delivering what he promises and is as power hungry and deceitful as the rest of them. Treat him like a shill and a traitor. Corbyn is an excellent liar and manipulator and should not be trusted. At his core he is a liberal who moves with popular fads and appeals to the urban middle class. Unfortunately the Labour party is long dead and i'm not convinced it can ever be resurrected. Keir Hardie has spun in his grave more times in the last 30 years than the earth has around the sun. Not going to happen. The window is a pendulum and is trending toward the right. I hate to advocate accelerationism but it won't swing back until the inevitable great depression of this century at which time we will see far more radical policy than Corbyn has ever advocated. My advice would be to reject establishment politics entirely and focus on community. Instead of volunteering with Momentum then volunteer at a food bank. Vote for suitable independents in the council elections next month. Do not align with a snake in the grass like Corbyn because he will swallow you whole and spit out your bones.
Comparing Tony Benn to Jeremy Corbyn is insulting. The only thing they have in common is that they grew up rich.
Both are rightwing by being capitalists
Wrong, read Lenin.
Also, the UK Labour party: the only political party in the 1920s to be endorsed by Lenin and the Pope.
Yes I've read lenin nothing i said is contradictory
So the user was right, the unique trade union influence made/makes Labour a more proletarian party than a lot of the communist parties of the time and certainly better than most in existence today.
Oh do fuck off. In LWC:ID he rightly calls the party opportunist and social-chauvinist and says that the nature of Communist support for the Labour party is that a Labour government would expose to the proletariat the absolute inadequacy of social democracy and push them towards the Communists:
Yeah but he won't. He may say it, he might even believe it, but he won't. The government will literally coup him before they let him interfere with NATO.
I knew that cunt was exploiting peoples lack of knowledge on lenin here. A lot of people on this board take advantage of the fact that no one here reads. Socdem labour shills are truly the worst.
I original statement was that Corbyn and Bernie are rightwing because they are both capitalist
Tbh, barring a Russo-Ukrainian war and Corbyn saying "no", there is little to nothing that could be done to stop his foreign policy. BDS actually has broad support, people don't care about the Chagos islanders one way or the other, and most people (even reactionary nationalists) are sick of fucking wars in the ME.
What's Bernie gotta do with this? And Corbyn is obviously an anti-capitalist at-least in terms of ideology on a vulgar level, prove me otherwise.
Other than, you know, killing or arresting him. The thing is, he doesn't want a revolution, which means the actual power is still going to be in the hands of the capitalist class. And there's also the fact that most of his policies such as higher wages and free shit are only possible because of British imperialism and war. If Britain became pacifist, all the spoils of imperialism would be lost and British workers would start to get less pay and less free shit, not more.
If you could read you'd see that I was replying to a post about Corbyn and Bernie
If he was killed, it would likely lead to an equally radical successor, and arrest would be immensely unlikely purely because the guy has never done anything fucking wrong. As for the spoils of imperialism, this country gets fuckall, the working class of any country gets fuckall from Imperialism to begin with it's why they protested so hard against WWI.
you dont need imperialism when you have the financial capital of the world, a socialist britain will be built on the grave of the City
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Keir Hardie one of the OG revisionists, as in along with Kautsky and During?
And? Kerensky, Kautsky, Bernstein etc. were all "anti-capitalist" - and yet, see what they accomplished. The only revolutionary function of a Labour government is to disillusion workers with modern social democracy.
Bears remembering that Labour actually supported WW1.
He was a Fabian, at least.
Eh not really, MacDonald opposed it as did most of the rank and file, and elements that would join the Labour party post-war (especially the Cooperative Party) opposed the war during it also. To boot, the great anti-war campaigner John MacLean actually stood as a Labour candidate during the 1921 election.
Point to me a socialist who shouldn't be considered a revisionist. Even Engels and Lenin didnt revise the works of Marx.