Leftypol Questions on Anarchism

This question was dealt with very well by Engels many years ago.

In other words, anarchists confuse cause and effect, they reverse the relationship between base and superstructure. Class society does not exist because of the state, the state exists because of class society. The state is nothing more than a mechanism that one class uses to suppress another. Because class society cannot be abolished overnight, there is necessary an interim period between a proletarian revolution and the establishment of a communist society. During this interim period, class society still exists, and so the state exists as well. Because of this, the proletariat must conquer state power and wield it for the purpose of destroying the ruling class during this period. Through this, class society will disappear, and since class society is the basis of the state, the state will disappear as well.

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I remember asking this to Ismail and he only wrote me a Lenin quote about how it would take a lot to get ride of the evils of bureocracy, i hope you guys can come up with better answers.

U wot. The Bolsheviks literally could not have won the civil war without the mass support of the workers and peasants.

These parties themselves - are they not made up of proletarians? Do they not seek to incorporate the widest possible section of the class-conscious proletariat into their ranks? This argument that a proletarian party is not a genuine expression of the working class is a curious one.

As above. One cannot instantly "step into" anarchism; the abolition of the conditions that give rise to the state will naturally be a relatively long process, and even then, existing socialist projects have hardly been in any position to get rid of or not seize the state, and those that attempted to do so either perished or were forced to adopt the state by any other name [1, 2].

When the working class holds state power, this is exactly what happens. Let me put it this way - are the administrators of the bourgeois state any less bourgeois for being administrators?

Citation very much needed. For it to be state capitalism, you would have to give evidence for the rise of a new exploiting class, i.e. a class that exercised ownership over means of production and lived solely by the surplus labour of workers employed to work those means of production. For example, the Soviet bureaucracy did not exercise direct ownership over the MoP that they administered - rather, those MoP belonged to the state as a whole - they could neither sell them nor buy more, and MoP could not be inherited. Production was carried out according to a socially-determined plan - sure, the planning process could've stood to be more democratic depending on who you ask (I'd agree), but it was still a socially-determined plan. Pics related are from Cockshott's Towards a New Socialism, which is well worth reading in its own right; I'll stick it up too.

1: isreview.org/issues/53/makhno.shtml
2: marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1873/bakunin/index.htm

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Thanks, comrade. I should say I got the idea of randomly selected Assembly from some Cockshott talk I heard, but I still believe we need a strata of non-electional bureaucrats and experts to even make planned economy possible. I haven't had the time to give Cockshott a thorough reading, so I might just be coming up with an idea he's already come up with, I don't know.

Your questions are not stupid, everyone on this board is just a hyper-autist.

But different areas have different rates of development and differening productive forces available to them, while none of them has the understanding of what's needed in each area/community. Some form of federation with sufficient authority would of course mitigate this, but each delegation is prone to emphasize the needs of the community they represent.

I'm sympathetic to Anarchism for the trust it places on the people. Every capitalist restoration was brought to us top-down and opposed by the masses. I'm opposed to it based on practical matters. Just to survive the initial foreign assault, a socialist state needs an incredibly strong degree of organization and a sufficiently narrow, sufficiently authorative body of leadership that can make BIG and difficult decisions FAST.

Anarchism always strikes me as a good-hearted but misguided attempt at going straight for full communism, while misunderstanding the reasons why us Marxist-Leninist-Statists think a state-socialist phase is required in the first place.

Awe, thanks.
I always feel nervous whenever I post on this board, because despite this being definitely the most civil board on Zig Forums, it still has the same sort of reactionary insulting of people and emotive bullshit which makes me scared that I'll piss everyone off.
It's good to hear that I'm not at fault here, thanks

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The main purpose of the federations as far as the economy is concerned is that they will allow for a sort of transparency between the delegates where every delegate will be able to see the overall picture of the economy as a whole, leading to smarter decision making.

While it's easy to imagine that the delegates will try to steer things only towards the needs of their individual community above all else, it will become very apparent that what is ultimately in everyone's best interests would be to organize things fairly as to keep the economy under control.

Historically during the time of primitive communism, before enclosure happened and feudalism took its toll, peasants who communally owned the land were very intelligent in deciding how to work it, which areas should get how much food, preparing for drought, division of labor e.c.t.
It's reasonable to assume that the delegates would act in the same way.

Especially with how we already have an abundance of all essential material resources, so the delegates can sleep sound that they will get what they need if they cooperate to help all of the other delegates. It would be in their best interest to do so seeing as no single individual or group in an economy can just survive by themselves.


An anarchist society would most likely be much harder to invade than with a state society.

With a state society there is one point of attack in which all political action is processed.
If you can hijack the government in a state-society you've essentially taken over everything, whereas with an anarchist society everyone is already organized in a way where the decentralized nature of it all means that there will never be any single point of attack.

You can't overthrow leaders or governments which weren't there to begin with, and even if you tried to establish them the anarchical society is designed to function without them, so they can simply be ignored in order to stop them from overthrowing.
These governments have power because they hold a monopoly over political decision making and the legitimate use of force and violence, but if this has all been spread out to the anarchist society then these monopolies which are the basis of the state's power won't be there to prop it up.

Even if you somehow "invade a federation", all that would probably mean would be that you've hijacked the building where people were grouping up in the federation.
At worse the current selected administrators for the delegates if they are in the building may be killed or kidnapped, which in that case new administrators would be selected and the federation would be moved elsewhere.

The federation isn't a government, it's just a mode of communication which need not be fixed to any particular area. It can have its location changed very easily if necessary.


In order to make sure that the big and difficult decisions can be dealt with quickly (e.g. how do we regulate the nuclear bombs, provide food and power for everyone, set up transport) these sort of decisions can be decided pre-emtively before the state is overthrown.
The organizations previously responsible for running these services would have to have a large part of them taken over, and the federations and delegates should be planned pre-emtively as-well and then once the state has been destroyed then these new organizations would spread like a virus across the whole society when the armed forces have been disorganized and the private property rights loose their legitimacy.

I think that one of the big misconceptions about anarchism which can be seen in this guy's post…

…is the idea that anarchist think that if the state-government just disappeared overnight then it would work as a shortcut to anarchist-socialism.

No smart anarchist thinks this at least.
An anarchist revolution would probably involve a gradual takeover where people would organize in different areas and build up the structure for a new society while fighting against the current one.

Plans for how to manage big decisions would have to be decided pre-emptively through the already existing delegates and federations, and would be acted on immediately.

I had to split my above post up because it was too long.
The images on the second-to last post I sent should be on the last post

You seem to be conflating "state" and "centralised government" here. The state is the sum total of the apparatus that one class employs to defend its interests - the army, police, militias, prisons, the judicial system, etc.. Decentralise all you want, horizontalise as much as you can; as long as it proves necessary for one class to organise to suppress the activities of another class - state power is in play.

Or that counter-revolutionary troops are sweeping through your territory on a wave of white terror.

All he's doing is outlining the fact that the state is an unavoidable consequence of a society where class antagonisms still exist and that the anarchist focus on the abolition of the state misses this. The economic base of society must be changed to nullify the antagonisms that give rise to the state before the state can wither away; attempting to "abolish" the state while the conditions that give rise to it still exist will only result in the state being re-established by the class that is willing to wield state power.

Granted, this is an argument on centralisation rather than the state itself, but I believe that the decisions in question are more along the lines of "we're being invaded on two fronts, we need to commit our reserves to one of those fronts right now" or "there is a food shortage in x region and people are starving as we speak, do we forcibly requisition food from uncollectivised businesses or not" - immediate emergencies that cannot reasonably be pre-empted.

I know this derails the thread but how would the revolution actually be like? It seems to me like fighting the military and police is near impossible. I think we could get on our side but that still would be hard. I don't think they are exactly against us, some of them, at least. I kinda have problems imagining I'll cope with the suffering during and after the revolution. Of course don't forget we have the godamn US's state if anything, anywhere happens.

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How many proles can a bourgeois state kill in a revolution, without unintentionally strengthening support for the revolution? Remember they need us, we do not need the them. Read this rundown on the Maoist Protracted People's War, it addresses your concerns: theimmortalscience.wordpress.com/2017/06/07/revolution-is-protracted-peoples-war-is-revolution

Also, the next revolution will not occur in the US. This is not to say that there exists revolutionary potential in many groups in the US, but overall the proletariat in the US is still way better off than the proletariat and peasants in the third-world due to imperialism.