How to refute this?
MUH 40 MILLION
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You can’t refute history
Point out that if we continue our present course 6 billion people are gonna die.
And that basically the entire World is gonna become Neo-Feudalism and that any place other than Siberia and Alaska is gonna be baked.
Refute what? Of course lots of people died in revolutions and under communist states but the godzilions is bullshit. As far as Stalin's killcount from executions is considered, going by the numbers put under Yeltsin was around 700-800 thousands.
Of course the famine actually caused million deaths but it wasn't deliberate and it's stupid to think that. What you can do instead of simply saying it didn't happen is to show it wasn't evil mustache man going berserk but a shit situation which had shit solutions. Of course the executions were retarded.
But you can point the hypocrisy of this. The west has no problems praising people like Churchill which also managed a shitty famine, was racist, dishonest and frequently unnecessary brutal. Truth be told his godzilions would probably be higher than Stalin.
Most people who believe this aren't interested in facts. If they were so interested in knowing how much people communism killed, they would know most communist deaths "estimates" have no real historical basis. The best you can do is refer them to archival evidence, ie. the 700k something executions in Stalin era and the 800k something executions in Mao era. At that point they'll just shift the goalposts and say "Oh but that's just as bad!"
but this is precisely the problem, we are playing this argument at porky's level. The fact is that more people are in prison in USA now than were ever sent to gulag, we need to fight back instead of always defending.
Point out capitalism body count, and if they say it's unfair to attribute so many specific situations to capitalism the say the same holds for communism.
What? Are you denying that communists killed 30 million people? Or that Western sources are lying or exaggerating to get the 70 million number? I think it’s time that we own up to the 100 million that have been killed in the name of our ideology and do a little self reflection on how the pursuit of utopia put 120 million in the grave. Do we want a repeat of the slaughter of 150 million in the 20th century? We really need to critically examine the words of people like Marx, Engels and Lenin and anyone else who would lead us to the butchering of 200 million lost souls, or we might live to see another 300 million die again.
Most capitalist ideologues are hypocritical psychopaths and literally don't give a shit about global mass death. They don't care about the people who "died under communism" either, it's just a talking point for them.
moralism is tool of the bourgeoisie.
it is sad to see left using these tactics today.
shut the fuck up you shill, capitalism kills way more than that on a constant basis, don't buy into their inflated numbers bullshit.
They don't care about systems. Stalin was bad because he was responsible for the deaths. Capitalism isn't bad, becuase the deaths are 'accidental' and systemic, and therefore have no specific perpetrator. They're completely drunk on individualist ideology.
this is the most toxic aspect of it.
the bourgeoisie sincerely believe their own bullshit at this point.
But they evidently do care about systems when it isn't capitalism. Same as they care about revolutionary ideology when they're overthrowing a foreign state.
I don't get it, is your post in contention to mine? Are you denying that these ideologues aren't psychopathic hypocrites?
i agree with you
but i feel that this hypocrisy has such a horrific dimension. a possible reality that the "America number 1" slogan and all this crap has worked on the ones perpetrating these crimes - they rely on the system so much, that it's justice has been planted in their own minds, it is like how the bourgeoisie today try everything to save liberal democracy, for self-interest, but, I like to believe that it's the fact they're just dumb liberals.
You shouldn't underestimate the elite, as you shouldn't buy into the "bumbling empire" narrative of the US and how all their imperialistic wars were mistakes. These people are sent to the very best universities and receive the best education on how to LEAD people. They spend every hour of their lives networking and engaging in "politics". They're not stupid.
at least for the hollywood bourgeois gatekeepers, they seem genuinely stupid.
You don't need to be stupid to be wrong. A lot of scientific fields (in the social sciences at least) are very contentious and lack any coherent consensus. Often, the consensus is wrong. Economics is one such field (as we all know), and international relations is another. The result is that you could have absolutely brilliant minds making fatal mistakes simply because they've been taught a fallacious theory in university, interpreted something wrong, or similar.
Smart people are in no way immune to ideology either.
Yeah but "mistakes" for the country aren't necessarily mistakes for the beneficiaries. Sure, Iraq could be a "mistake", but a select few benefited immensely off the war. This leads onto another point, the narrative that we share the same consequences and interests of the elite. That our suffering is also their suffering, and vi versa. Simply not true. We as proles see the elite as being "dumb" or erronous in some manner because their behaviour is detrimental to the working class. But they're working in their interests, we should never forget that.
This is undeniably true, and we should never forget the divergence and conflict of interests between the different classes and economic actors. That said, I don't doubt that many of the bourgie political leaders of today actually believe they have the people's best interest at heart, where I guess the self-deception of ideology comes into play, enabling them to fuck over the common folk supposedly for the greater "common good". And then you have people like John Bolton who obviously don't give a fuck.
Man the bourgeois of old didn't give a single fuck about the poor. What convinces you that the modern day elite aren't manipulative, uncaring cunts too? Is it literally just words?
A lot of them are manipulative uncaring cunts (especially since the capitalist and political systems select for those traits), but many aren't. I just feel like a lot of nuance gets lost in all the rhetoric (I'm often guilty of this too when shitposting which i do 90% of the time). But that literally doesn't matter. At the end of the day I'm not an anti-capitalist because the elites are mean, but mainly because I'm convinced capitalism is an existential threat to our species.
Which is also a point I think many would find more palatable. If you go around saying that all elites are scum of the Earth and deserves the gulag (and many do), you'll always have someone pointing out how this or that capitalist is a virtuous person and yadda yadda yadda.
The point should rather be that the abolishment of capitalism is an absolute necessity, not something we engage in out of revenge fantasies against porky.
I don't really care about their personal behaviour either, or for how "mean" they are. What I was getting at was something larger, that liberalism is all about image, and it still tricks a great many people including leftists. So when I was saying that these people ARE smart and malicious, even though they give off a clumsy or harmless vibe, it's just them exhibiting the dissonance of their system as a whole. Rainbow capitalism and all that. You should treat capitalism and its agents as actual threats instead of "stupid people who accidentally got into positions of power". It's like the entire George Bush criticism that fucks me off.
Stop right there, negro!
I think I get where you're coming from now, and I completely agree that we shouldn't trivialize apparently harmless bourgie politicians or the roles they play in the system. I guess the balancing act is in making clear the contradiction between their interests and actions and the interests of the working class as a whole without us appearing like bloodthirsty jacobin avengers.
But that's less than the proprted number we killed!?
Even then the earth is communist so that is also going under the tally.
There are a million separate sources, in no small part because debunking bullshit takes a lot more time and effort than creating bullshit.
Anyway, I'll take the opportunity to shill this magnificent site which everyone in this board should have as their initial page.
The wiki section is dedicated to debunking common lies and propaganda. Also, this is the only resource online that I know of which has the full text of amazing amazing documents such as the Sovnarkom decrees.
No one cares about racism
But I have the video proof!