Leftypol BTFO

It actually is though, because ours cuts out the capitalist and keeps the workers, where as yours makes them beholden to the capitalist

Imagine believing this when we will have a global recession by the end of this year lmfaoooo

Wow OP it's almost as if humans naturaly survive in a huge chain of cooperation in which every link is partially responsible for the existance of humanity as we understand it.
Too bad this is a commie pipe dream, businessman and landlords create all the value of things and are the absolute rightfull owners of almost all of the world's wealth.

OK so what you meant to say was:

See attached. Now you show me the pencils made by a coop of unbeholden workers.

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...

Yes, price being the tensile data sheet informing the linker as to what size and shape his link will have to be to support the chain.

No, I'm saying your price system didn't create them, workers did.
The price system actually just made things harder.
So I'll ask you again, "show me a price system creating pencils without workers".

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show me prices without pencils

Humans have been doing this way before modern pricing systems or even currency.
Suck a dick

Wait what the fuck, why was the video on the left there?
Is this a new way of dispensing your propaganda?

Nice theory, show me the pencils made by workers who didn't use a priced supply chain.

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This.
Pricing and markets put the carts before the bulls but are a necessity to manage shitty descentralized human production under capitalism.

Under socialiasm we could just identify demand, plan the best way to suply such demand, produce aquiring resources directly from the environment.
Meanwhile we are stuck with huge suply chains that are subject by millions of layers of useless variable inserted by private actors in the system.
The goal is the same but one method is convoluted and unstable.

soviet pencils.

You're still not telling me why they need one. This should be easy for you.
But I guess good ol' Milton said the price system is magic tho…
Nice theory

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I understand why Adorno hated jazz now

Factually incorrect. In fact, the USSR fucked up consumer goods production so badly by the Five Year Plan, that they had to roll it back and allow prices to float. The market will not be denied, commrade.

I'm saying that all your theories don't mean anything if the systems they describe can't make a fucking pencil.

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What the fuck does this mean?

Here you go, bud.
Enjoy the anchor gulag.

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Clumsy sophist. Show me the pencils or gtfo.

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you were waiting for someone to say soviet pencils weren't you?
I knew, just wanted to see your answer.
What a bunch o bullshit.
Five year plans litterally carried the ussr trough the 20th century making it a superpower, and happened from 28 to 91. Your misunderstanding just shows your stupidity.
So both the golden age and decline of the ussr happened under 5 year plans, what killed it was the liberalization of the economy you defended.
Consumer goods with largesacale production on the ussr were produced without currency factored in, and they were able to supply their population efficiently, it was not perfect but neither is capitalism. The problems that arised in the soviet distribtion chain can be blamed on the refusal to adopt computing technology, introduction of private enterprises and burocracy. None of those things are defended by leftypol users or are inherent to socialis organiztion.

pencils were shown you just shifted the goalposts saying

And I bet you think this is a car.

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But what did he mean by "the five plan"? Which plan? Does he know China has five-year plans? I don't get what he meant by that.

I was referring to the First Five Year plan, which caused a massive shutdown of production of consumer goods, so they rolled it back to allow for floating prices.
Literally every poster ITT has attempted this except for me.

I don't get it. Prices produce pencils? Like, out of thin fucking air? He does say it's magic. What produced the prices? Other prices? All the way down you say?

Of fucking course you like Sam Hyde.

Let me address you more seriously than you deserve, though; even if your example was correct, just because something has never happened yet, does that mean it could never happen? At one point capitalism had never existed, yet clearly using this argument against it would have been fallacious because it did indeed begin to exist. Am I being absurd to say that one day practical anti gravity and gene therapy will exist? There's no way to do it now but it's easy to imagine that some day there would be. Socialism isn't a technology in itself but it does rely on a certain level of technology to enable realistic two way communication between producers and the central databases in a quick mannner. In addition it requires a certain level of basic moral philosophy among human beings, to be able to understand abstract systems that benefit the individual in a more complex way than "Grug cut down tree, Grug make fire and be warm". You might work in a factory under socialism making some product that you have no interest in using whatsoever, yet it can still be in your best interest to work in kind so that others will create the goods that you need and want. To summarize, if these factors are not yet in place (or were not yet in place at one point, perhaps in Marx's time) is it so outrageous to say that while it has not happened yet, socialism is likely to occur and to provide superior outcomes to capitalism?

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Well, here you go.

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Learn the difference.

Consumer goods weren't prioritized in early USSR. After the war there was a debate in the party and the guy (forgot his name) who wanted the USSR focus on consumer goods got shot, this of course was Stalin's idea. If you want to talk about consumer goods in the soviet union speak about the period from 1960s-1980s.

wanting a shitty eraser that lasts 3 rubs and will likelly tear appart, i never seen a single person use that shit unless they are out of erasers.

Nice timeline you are living.
Where did you get your info a youtube video with an avatarfag anacap?
"because of the successes made by the first plan, Stalin did not hesitate with going ahead with the second five-year plan in 1932"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-year_plans_for_the_national_economy_of_the_Soviet_Union

It's true, they had no erasers in the USSR, that's actually why the disastrous Afghan war happened, someone accidentally wrote an exclamation mark after "Invade Afghanistan" on a report instead of a question mark, and couldn't rub it out. Of course, he couldn't use a new piece of paper either, since that would have been theft from the proletariat and he would have been executed. So, he had no choice but to send the paper to his subordinates and let the pieces fall where they may. True story.

In seriousness pencils with rubbers on the end are a very burger invention, it's a flashy gimmick but if you actually try to use the rubber it usually comes off eventually, and it's difficult to get a good erase on a thick line or word with such a small surface area. Having a separate rubber is much better.

And I guess you're gay, but why should our personalities figure into an economics and history discussion?
Would you accept a similar line of reasoning from someone trying to convince you of their religious beliefs?
True enough but not convincing.

You reek of burger, fam

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So prices aren't necessary to produce pencils, just sufficient? How much magic is sufficient to produce pencils out of thin fucking air?

Next.

Posts with images regardless of what they are are more likely to get responses.

I am disappointed in your lack of a proper response, I thought you liberty guys liked to pretend to be intellectuals? Clearly a question about economics has nothing to do with God. However, if you were to suggest some new and intelligent way to try to verify the existence of God, it would be wrong of me to deride you and say that method had never successful before, even if now we have completely different tools, therefore it obviously wouldn't work and we shouldn't even try.

typical pseudo.

It's lonely at the top.

And yet still he is right

Are you now seriously arguing that they had no way to rub out pencil in the USSR? I mean, all of us most likely live in a capitalist country, it's hardly like we couldn't just go buy a burger pencil ourselves. What is 'sour grapes' about it?

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I think he believes the USSR had lines of hundreds waiting before the empty stores before the late 80s.

I can feel you seething from oceans away

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Oh and imageboards are Japanese. And you're speaking English and using Latin characters.

In summation, press F to pay respects to the US education system. It's going to be a long and painful shock when the Chinese take over superpower status from the US.

Like a math teacher grading a problem, I stop reading when errors or fallacies are encountered in the presuppositions or beginning premises.

My response to "you're a burger who uses burger pencils" was intellectually proportional, and just as correct.

Perhaps he simply believes that hundreds would have to cue to use the town's communal rubber, which was attached to a post by steel wire and watched over by two armed red guards at all times.

Fake news.

But those pencils are a burger phenomena. So why are you so surprised that they were rare in the USSR.

I might as well say capitalism was a failure due to the huge shortage of Lenin statues in the US compared to the USSR, obviously capitalism just wasn't efficient enough to produce them.

Speaking of fallacious premises, where do those magic prices come from again? Also, you'd make a really shitty math teacher.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

Still haven't gotten a clear explanation about that "first five year plan" that suposedly failed.
You casually said i was falacious for linking wikipedia and exempted yourself from proving anything.

Pencils with erasers are not burger-specific. The topic of this thread is, show me a pencil made using your economic theories. "Societ pencils" was suggested by you, not me. And it fails the test in multiple ways, as I've explained.

They didn't your explanation was historically incorect.

It's because he's intellectually dishonest. I'm guessing he actually only came here to shitpost, but found himself out of his depth when he was forced out of his dialogue tree, so now he's throwing everything at us but the kitchen sink to save face.

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There's 2 images of pencils in the USSR in this thread, if you are just shitposting say it now, if you are being obnoxious ignore the photos and let us know you are a faggot.

independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/adult-colouring-book-craze-prompts-global-pencil-shortage-a6944401.html

Fucking capitalists and their pencil shortages

Yikes.

False.

Please give me cnocrete evidence on how the 28 fice year plan failed and was rolled back?
Seriously i'm still waiting.

The high level of dialogue here definitely has me scramblin'

...

There isn't that much logic to be found with you.

lmao

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The world is at your fingertips. I refuse to spoonfeed you. Google it.

I mean, you're right, he clearly didn't come here looking for a real argument but since he stirred one up he can damn well sit there and take it like a man. He can leave or just make troll arguments if he wants but he'll still know deep down he got BTFOd.

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Libertarians confirmed for the right wing equivalent of SJWs.

Take credit for that one bud, we're really trying to dish it out to refute your magic prices argument.

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t. liberdy :^DDDD

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Any sufficiently advanced technology is perceived as magic, and given the vapor theory bubble brained indoctrination prevalent here, I'd say that "magic prices" is an accurate phrasing for you.

What is OP's point? i'm lost, there were pencils in socialism.

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And they call us utopian.

You provided uncorected claims at first, when contested you ignored me, and now when asked for a correct narrative put the burden on me. Your willingess to provide information vanished with your confidence in your historical knowledge.

I knew you were here to have and be dishonest from the start but now your own game of pretending to be smart has cracked.

5/10 for your effort.

have fun and be dishonest*

Ok literally go right now and google "First Five Year Plan", click on the first link, read it all, then come back here and tell me I was wrong. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you.

We said it was a success, you said it wasn't, so we asked you for sources.

"Government supported the project and its main task at that time was elimination of illiteracy in the country. For this office accessories had to be made available. After the fall of the USSR the Moscow factory remained the only producer of pencils in the ex-USSR countries with a complete production cycle."
Pretty interesting that only one pencil factory was operating at full capacity after the collapse of the USSR. You'd think that with all of those magic prices pencil production would be at an all-time high.
englishrussia.com/2012/09/13/old-pencil-making-factory/

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The wikipedia page only goes into unrealistic quotas and muh kulaks.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_five-year_plan#Failures_of_the_first_five-year_plan

Now read this one in full
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_goods_in_the_Soviet_Union

So you don't believe that pencils are produced out of thin fucking air by the sheer existence of prices? Cause your boy Milton seems to think so. What's your take?

OK

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I'm referring to a modern pencil with an eraser, as that demonstrates large scale cooperation across multiple disparate groups, and not limited to the USSR. Show me a modern pencil fabricated by the economic policies espoused on this board.

Strawman.

Yeah, ok. I still don't get where it goes about the failure of the first 5 year plan. It only says that consumer goods sucked in the 30s and about the shortages in the 80s.
Also

Those are clearly Potemkin pencils. All media from North Korea is weaponized.

You won't find a single person defending late ussr here.

I dunno man, your reading comprehension must be pure shit. It clearly describes the destruction of small scale manufacturing and the legalization of price mechanisms and trading.

Well that's not what I was referring to.

How is it a strawman? He's asking you what you believe, and considering Milton said it was magic, you should probably pick a better explanation.

I'm
The only thing on wikipedia says about the fist five year plan is this
So I still don't get your point. Those things were reverted after some time.