/leftybritpol/ - Tory meltdown edition

They would barely get any seats atm.

Not really.

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law idea: ban television companies from collaborating with parties to make empty events look well attended

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So I stopped following the Brexit shitshow for a few weeks and now BXP is a big thing it seems, wtf are they and how are they different from UKIP?

Britons voted to leave the European Union nearly 3 years ago. 3 years of lies and sabotage by the bourgeoisie.

The latest smear cycle on Corbyn is really getting on my nerves, not really because of the smear per se, but the fact that none of these people are asking themselves how is Labour still so popular after so much nonsense?

UKIP but with less far right racists I suppose

The Brexit Party is Nigel Farage's personal outfit to get brexit done (iirc atm he is arguing for a no deal brexit). The difference between then and UKIP is three-fold: first is that UKIP has developed into a crypto-far right party, the second is that the BXP appears to be single-issue and contains a wider range of political opinions (for example it contains a former Communist and Anne bloody Widdecomb), and finally Farage has absolute control over the party constitutionally.

twitter.com/HeydonProwse/status/1122162559686270976
Bent bobby gets caught.

if the brexit party gets seats but the SDP doesn't i will personally ensure britain is abolished and becomes the first state to full hand over all autonomy to the eu, as well as surrender all monetary policy to the euro, then have myself appointed central bank chair and run monetary policy with the specific goal of fucking this country up worse than margaret thatcher

you have been warned

Based spite

SDP is running? But why?

twitter.com/TheSDPUK
Oh yeah

Never trust a social democrat…

lol i love small parties

Based defender of the Marketreich.

So do you Brits all hate Corbyn now?

lmao moderate wing of fascism indeed

Prediction: at the locals the tories get fucking decked but the biggest beneficiary will be weirdo localist and ideological parties. North East Party go!

Yes every singe one because that how politix work

if yorkshire first isn't part of the government by 2020 i will personally give london to ireland

Tbh Labour minority supported by SNP, North-East Party, Yorkshire Party, Plaid, SDLP, & Merbon Kernow when,

Meh, globalist being a right wing dogwhistle is pretty much a zoomerism. In the 90's people rioted over globalisation, nowadays the left is so brokebrained they think they EU is internationalist and leaving it is the act of insidious nazbols.

nah if you say 'globalist' you should be immediately viewed with suspicion until proven otherwise. if you mean globalisation, say 'globalisation' like a big brain not 'globalism' like a mong. otherwise, be judged as a mong at best and a nazi at worst.

Shut it globalist.

Alright lads, in terms of DotP - lower communism - higher communism, where does a Labour government go? At what point do Corbyn and McDonnell go out and single-handedly expropriate the expropriators? Burning questions of our movement tbh

i'll give you a kick in your spunk globes in a minute you globehead fuck

Labour is still the most popular party lmao.

Salty liberals and tories hate him though

alright lads who's your favourite/least hated postwar tory PM if you had to pick one?
i'm going with Supermac.

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Eden, for ending the British Empire.

Short of listening in on the late-night meetings between Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne we have no way knowing whether Labour Britain will be a DotP, so it has to just be a wait and see. Personally I think their approach is somewhere between 'we're just going to try and do our best one day at a time' (leaning Corbyn) and 'we're going to outsmart the porkies and preempt their every move with 50-dimensional backgammon' (leaning McDonnell).
Our main hope/best case scenario imo is setting the superstructural and economic basis for socialism in Britain. So seeing some renationalisations along a new model of workers+state management, heavy-handed encouragement of coops and socialisation of existing enterprises, purposefully setting up a political infrastructure of extra-parliamentary dual power to both set a lasting legacy that permanently transforms the relations of class and regional-central power in the country even if Labour is ousted at the next GE or to hand over power once the foundations for socialism are set. Aside from this gradual purging of the civil service of the old thatcherite types that still haunt most of the upper echelons and strategically placing new socialist think tank types that have been blossoming in the wake of Corbyn. Similarly for the BBC hopefully alongside a general media strategy to crush the murdoch press and insulate the british public from the reactionary capitalist media, relying mostly on the growth of internet and death of print media.
In brief, the primary and really sole task of a (socialist) Labour government is to acclimate the British working class to socialism so that when the time comes the parliamentary bourgeois British state can give way to a socialist Britain.
Then again we might get some nationalisations, reversed welfare cuts, some feel-good community engagement projects and little more than a post-brexit 'return to normal'. We won't really know till it starts happening which we'll be able to tell by the events starting to outpace us rapidly.

I just want to live in an optimistic 'things are going to get so much better' britain that builds socialism together, but vast international porky will probably kill us all with the market for our transgression :(

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Not gonna lie I was mostly taking the piss. It'd be great if Corbyn and McDonnell were actually crypto-Leninists getting ready to do DoTP parliamentary style, but I mean… even if they were, what then? The army wouldn't even need to think before they acted, given some of the shit I've heard soldiers I've spoken to come out with and the shit in the news, and I can hardly see Corbyn going full "we saw what happened to Allende, worker's militias now". Like don't get me wrong I know Corbyn has the "establishment" (using that word makes me feel Alex-Jones-tier, idk why) shit up hence the constant smears, but I just can't get too optimistic for reasons I can't fully express.

tbh I'm jealous as fuck of the U.K's history of large scale industrial unionism

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Enoch Powell. He was right about blacks.

1) he wasn't PM
2) BE GONE GAMMON

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UK military is a fucking mess and absolutely tiny, even if you were to round up the entire combat ready force they wouldn't be able to coup. And this is without mentioning UK isn't as classcucked as the US on that front. Look at all the recruitment scandals over the past few years and how badly it's been mismanaged.

They should rename Pyrrhic Victory to Cameron Victory at this point.

On this note, one of the reasons they are doing so shit is that they hired *drumroll* Capita to do the recruitment. One of my mates was applying to join the army and Capita lost his medical records when he had to register an injury. By the time he had recovered he said "fuck it" and got an apprenticeship.

No-wonder the army, which aims for 120k people, only has about 75k atm.

Either your mate is very popular or this is a highly recurring theme among army recruitment haha, heard it quite a lot.

Tfw the British army was rekt by fucking neoliberal outsourcing. Maybe Hitchens was right and Blair was a Eurocommunist spy attempting to bring down the British establishment.

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Capitards for the gulag when?

Capita shall be awarded Hero of Socialist Labour awards for their role in breaking the fucking Public-Private-Partnership system.

It seems like everyone involved in the PPP system would get that award at this point.

The vanguard has been outsourced to Serco.

Post Socialist British flags

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I feel like something that isn't capitalised on much in the torch designs is cutting off the bottom of the torch and just having the head and the fire.

Literally every soldier I know is "FUCK Corbyn the commie spy"-tier though.

I got deferred for bad eyesight after selection and they never got back to me, which suits me fine because I realised joining the army to drive tanks around Germany for a few years was a fucking terrible idea in the mean time and went back to college. Thank fuck for a childhood spent staring at screens tbh.

The military doesn't have enough manpower to impose their will on the whole of the UK. If Corbyn was deposed they'd have to use violence to keep hold of their position, which would put The Establishment in a far, far worse position than when The Troubles began. It would be a bloodbath. It would probably slip into civil war territory officially, which is something the IRA was never given to avoid giving them legitimacy.

National Pasty Service

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Oh when is the council elections?

Thursday 2nd May

Fuck me that is a rare pepe.

You are clueless, a single division-sized force could take over the U.K. in a couple of days if the planning was adequate. This isn't Turkey where people will actually come out onto the streets and fight the tanks/soldiers. Most "leftists" here are liberal pussies who will scatter at the first whiff of grapeshot.

t. someone who has never seen a military coup in their life.
Fuck off pol, pic related.

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Even if Corbyn takes power, you won't see major domestic policy shifts. If Podemos and Syriza have taught us anything, it's that these rebranded "we're to the left of the SocDems" leftists ultimately align with liberal internationalism above economic socialism. Tsipras is currently the darling of the EU for example since he's giving "refugees" citizenship by the tens of thousands (this is a self-serving move in part too, to secure future voters), went against the vast majority of his country to sign on the Macedonia naming dispute and so on.

Corbyn won't be any different.

I live next to a country that constantly has them, and my country had one in 67. You don't actually need hundreds of thousands of men for a military coup.

Were you attempting to make a point?

But the thing is like unlike Podemos and Syriza, Corbyn and McDonnell actually have policies to retake the economy under worker's ownership and save unions

What you do need is the ability to administrate a country: something the army could not do if they wanted to. Why? Because there is no centre of power in Britain. London alone has 8m people, you'd need the whole army just to sort that out, let alone Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Cardiff, and fuck don't even get me started on Northern Ireland. You know a part of the reason the coup failed in Turkey? Because the army only had real control of Istanbul and not Ankara. Now imagine that, but with 10 major cities, all of them with big histories of resistance and mass mobilisation. Then add the fact that two of them are centre of open separatism with a devolved legislature in one that would not support a military government in London. Then add to that the fact this will be the first time there has been a military coup in britain for 300 years.

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Syriza claimed the exact same thing mate. So did Podemos. The left is ruined in Greece now, it will never recover for decades, only immigrants and old people vote for them.

Most of the people there aren't even English and have very little emotional attachment to the country as an entity to begin with. Do you think there's going to be some mass mobilization of Bangladeshis against the new military state?

Study previously successful military coups.

You grossly overestimate how many people are going to take to the streets. Young Europeans in 2019 are actually more amenable to a military coup and less attached to democracy as a principle than young people were 30 years ago.

And this makes sense. Liberal democracy has been a disaster.

Idk much about Syriza but Podemos hasn't even gone to power and are just a left-populist party

Podemos, like Syriza, were essentially a rebrand of previous SocDem arrangements, albeit with more populist rhetoric.

t. full-time Zig Forums infograph student

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Yes and my point is that Corbyn's Labour has DemSoc policies planned out. Do you even read up on what McDonnell is up to?

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I can see your concern, but the issue with Syriza is that Greece was a subject country and could do little to break from it's position. Ironically, because of the UK's lesser imperial power status it can do so with far greater ease.
Also the Macedonia naming dispute is perfectly within the name of internationalism.

Yeah you're a braindead polyp if I've ever seen one.
Actually unironically yes, especially since they have been agents of mass mobilisation in the past.
Also what part of "historically marginalised groups" makes you think they would go along with a right-wing junta? Like do you think the afro-caribbean population of London; which had to deal with shit like Stephen Lawrence, is gonna just lie-down? Are you kidding?
While statistically this is true, that doesn't actually mean they'd accept military rule: mostly since the british army is so out-of-touch with the general populace.

Just another example of European "right wingers" being US cuckolds.
Imagine actually defending a US backed coup in your OWN country to trigger the commies.

Can any user hit me up with the video of that Greek antifascist shooting three Golden Dawn faggots in front of one of their offices?

tbf i'd make a distinction between british and english
granted pinning down that distinction would be difficult. i mean, it's easy to express the generally held feeling that you have to be white to be english, but i'd say it's more nuanced than that. plenty of white londoners instinctively call themselves british first, on instinct, rather than english.

lol, polls show they're disaffected with liberal democracy and are claiming support for revolution, only in your fever dreams does this mean they'd be at all inclined towards a military coup.

Sure you can make that distinction, but short of claiming that London is greatly infused with Scots or Sheepshaggers, its a distinction without a difference, unless the real claim behind 'Most Londoners aren't english' is 'only whites resist military coups'

lol. Only a Western European would be this stupid.

And Tsipras promised mass nationalization too. See how that worked out?

Also a lot of the afro-caribbean populace lean towards being English as opposed to being British (perhaps because Britishness is associated with colonial rule).

...

I agree, the Norman ruling class must be exterminated and the commons restored to true anglo-saxon folk

Tbh Scots and Gaels are occupying Pictish land. #decolonise

englishlabournetwork.org.uk/briefings-and-key-speeches/john-denham-england-a-nation-divided-25-6-18/
Also some good shit here on English identity.

Well it is lucky that when Labour comes into power, UK won't be under EU then :^)

Yeah can these foreign invaders also leave and go back to Germany or whatever other shithole they came from?

The Welsh and Cornish need to repopulate Britain tbf

Holy shit…

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So what is your determinant for someone's identity if Mo Farah is just as English as those people? Is it based on a travel document handed out by the Home Office? If that's the case, aren't the people from this country who fought for IS in Syria and Iraq just as English as some east end cockney?

If "Yes". Answer this:

1. Does the term "English" even have a point other than a titular legal definition?
2. Is your definition of identity - i.e. based on travel documents - a universalist thing. In other words, does it also apply to identities like Japanese and Chinese?

Labour needs to do better for the optimal result. The ideal situation is Labour doing better or as well as Brexit party with everyone else left behind. And any result that dips below the previous result will be seen and attacked as a weakness.

Unironically deport the normans and restore native Britons to power tbh
theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/17/high-house-prices-inequality-normans

Commonwealth and non-norman European immigrants can (nay MUST) be allowed to stay but the Descendants of the normans maintain the norman yoke over the people of these isles, a lingering genetic yoke if you will MUST go in order to build socialism. Marx was right that Capitalism will end where the normans began it, in England, because England will be the first country to see off the norman menace.

every conspiracy theory about every group is true, but incorrectly assigned to groups other than the normans. the normans are one half of the dialectic engine of history, standing in opposition to all honest men.

The jury is still out on whether the Saxons are acceptable or not. My working hypothesis is that regardless, Jeremy Corbyn is King Arthur The King Reborn and it will be His Decision To Make.

Harry Perkins : Do I frighten you all that much? Me? Harry Perkins? A steelworker from Sheffield?

Browne (a norman): Yes. You do. You're a bad dream. I could always comfort myself with the thought that socialism would never work. It's always been in the hands of bungling incompetents, trimmers, compromisers.

Harry Perkins : Someone you could control from within.

Browne : But you, Mr. Perkins, could destroy everything I've ever believed in.

Harry Perkins : And your father before you. And his father before him.

Browne : Yea, even unto the Middle Ages.

Browne : You show alarming signs of turning into a major statesman.

Harry Perkins : And you can't allow that. You and your ancestors.

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lol

I didn't say shit about travel documents. Identity, at the end of the day, is a fucking spook. So treat it like a spook. I know plenty of immigrants who do not feel british or english or whatever (mostly students): and I know way more that do. People who identify as British and act British are British, same with Englishness. Mo Farah speaks like a Londoner, he acts like one, and he has represented this country at the highest level. If you heard him speak without seeing him you'd think he was white tbh.
Well it doesn't have a titular legal definition, so obviously yes. I don't consider myself English, because I am half Scottish. I fall firmly into the conceptualisation of British, but my Scottish heritage gives me a unique look at Englishness since I was always slightly outside of it. So yes, it exists as a spook: one that is not affirmed by a document or a genetic test.
Yes, considering loads of ethnic minorities like Manchurians identify as Chinese, along with mixed-raced Japanese people abroad & people like long-term (talking pre-10s) Koreans doing so while in Japan. But that is besides the point, British and English identity is not an ethnic one, it cannot be: you know why? Look at the map in pic related. That is an ethnic map of the UK by populations who have lived in the same area for more than 5 generations. Notice how somewhere like Orkney has FOUR DISTINCT ETHNIC GROUPS. But anyone from Orkney would say they're Orcadian.
Also to be frank, Mo Farah is actually a second generation immigrant, considering his father spent most of his life here, moved-back to Somalia then it got utterly fucked-up.
However such weakness will likely lead to a hardening towards leave, which is good. I agree though, BXP and Labour should come equal in terms of votes. Interesting thing is that the projections show even with the same number of votes "who wins" in terms of seats switches. Honestly it may all be down to luck at this point. We'll see.

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What then of the east end cockney, who you consider to be a born and bred englishman, who fought for IS in Syria and Iraq? After all, there are white jihadists, young, isolated men, with no family, cultural, national or ethnic background to a majority muslim country, who convert in search of some meaning, radicalise and go off to fight for IS. Now are they English? If they are then englishness appears to be a purely ethnic category, if they are not, then does this mean they never were? That they were but then ceased to be english making englishness a sort of cultural-ideological category from which you can be excommunicated or apostatise from by virtue of no longer behaving within the parameters of 'what english people do or are like' (and also does this then mean one can in fact become english by adhering to these standards?)

I see. I think it's important to distinguish here between the 中华民族 ＆ 汉人, the former are a civic identity of sorts, the latter a racial one. It's also important to note that people like Machurians and Zhuang are people with some proximity to the founding race (Han) in genetic terms. And the further away you get from that proximity, the less likely the people are to define themselves as part of the Zhonghua Minzu (e.g. Uighurs) or even be considered as such by others.

Right, but these identities are still based around extended kinship relations, not travel documents/civic ideas of belonging.

Can you expand a little more on this. What would you define as identify and acting as British/English?

Are these the necessary conditions required? By those standards, wouldn't most pre-modern English people not be considered English?

There is actually a Greek guy (John Georgelas) who fought for IS in Iraq and Syria. I still consider him a Greek, albeit a fallen, treacherous one. I don't consider any Pakistani or African with Greek citizenship a Greek though. Identity for me is based on kinship relations, i.e. blood. Anything else is a spook liable to subversion ("who are you to say that these 50,000,000 Chinese people aren't just as X as you?!")

i'm kept up at night by the idea that having already grown to adulthood, the ship may have sailed on naturalising in canada, australia or suchlike. the legal barriers are high, but i suspect the social barriers make those look trivial.
to be an 'expat' after decades would be a fate worse than death.

Oh believe me mate I understand the difference between that, I study russian and there is a similar difference between someone who is Русский and a Россиянин: the former denotes an Ethnic Russian wheather in or outside of Russia, the latter denotes a Russian national of any race. The former is tied-up more with Christian and ethnic conceptualisations of Russianness (think Donbass) while the latter is civic (think someone like Lavr Kornilov, who was a whole host of things: none of them ethnic Russian, but literally nobody would call him anything but a Russian). The important thing, however, is that such a conceptualisation does not exist in Britain. This is likely due to the fact that we are, to quote an auld wifie friend of the family "mongrels anyways". This is especially acute in Scotland where Scottish civic identity not only comprises different ethnicities, but three distinct cultural groups (Sassanach/Inglin, Scots, and Gaelic traditions separately). Britain is a fusion of traditions, cultures, languages, and ethnicities. This is why fascism never took-off here, because ethnonationalism makes no sense in our context. As such Mo Farah is British, is he English? I dunno, ask the bloke: but only weirdos wouldn't say Loftus-Cheek wasn't English. You are thinking with a European familiar and ethnic mindset that doesn't work when it comes to the British isles (which btw, Ireland is no exception: most of the gael LARPers there are actually descended from Normans).
Except the way identity works in these communities often tends to be civic purely because they operate on quasi-clan systems due to familial ties.
Shouting "WHAAEEYYY" when someone drops their pint glass.
Well yes, I don't think if anyone transported an anglo-Saxon to today and let them live in Shropshire would think they were English off-the-bat. I mean they don't even know the words to Three Lions.