Cooperatives and counter economy

supremereality.us/home/thread?id=cooperatives-the-counter-economy

Hey guys, officecuck user here

In our day to day lives of wage-slavery under capitalism, we get up each day and go to work for a capitalist boss making him money. While left(ish) thinkers from Proudhon to Carson to Wolff to even Cockshott (albeit as a transitionary phase to cybernetic planning) have promoted workers coops, there has been no concerted effort to promote this idea.

Advantages:

1. We get to quit being wagecucks for a capitalist and work for ourselves. Although we are still cucked by a greater capitalistic economy competing with our coops, we at least are free of an immediate capitalistic boss, CEO or manager.

2. It takes away profits from the bourgeois. One of the greatest ideas of a coop-economy is that every dollar of profit made by the alternative coop economy is one dollar less made by huge capitalist corporations. It is an immediately practical form of building dual power.

3. It leverages one of the few actual freedoms we have under capitalism: consumer choice.

Objections: Now I know some of you have objections to this on the basis that its too similar to the old utopian socialists who tried to make coops. Its still market based and still capitalist. The difference is that this is not the end all be all, just a stopgap. In the same way universal healthcare etc does equal socialism but does make the lives of workers better.

Cooperatives will not bring the revolution but they will make the experience of work better right now. Yes there is the danger that it will instill a petit bourgeois mentality in the workers in more successful cooperatives, or in industries with higher profit margins such as tech. However this is cancelled by the fact that there should be a NETWORK of cooperatives which offer discounted rates to each other. There should be a leftist search engine/portal, a cooperative ‘amazon.com’ where the workers coops can all list their goods, services, and job listings and buy from/cross promote each other. Similar to how black nationalists say ‘buy black’, we would say ‘buy counter-economy’. Basically any time a left person or other workers coop goes online to buy something including services they would check that site first, in order to see if it has it. This would circle money back into the counter- economy, growing it and conversely shrinking the economy of the bourgeois.

Now as a cockshottist myself I forsee that once socialists seize power (whether through election or other means) we will basically forcibly mutualize the remainder of the economy from the bourgeois, institute direct e-democracy voting, and start building an electronic planning/labor voucher system which will eventually transition the network of cooperatives to a cybernetically planned economy. But I digress. The point is almost every leftist can agree (except leftcoms who will just sit around doing nothing like usual and accelerationists obv) that building dual power is the way to go. Unionizing simply leads to compromise with the bourgeois for better benefits. Coops give works control of their immediate enterprise NOW, as opposed to waiting for the revolution which might not happen for years.

What do you guys say, is this the new praxis?

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ianwrightsite.wordpress.com/2018/08/02/venture-capitalism-versus-venture-communism/
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Hey OP, how do you see the interaction between unions and co-op management playing out?

They'd also be more likely to come to the support of the workers were a revolution to occur.

Co-ops becoming significant sectors of the capitalist economy is a worthwhile goal so long ad they are sufficiently radical and have at least a baseline understanding and acceptance of Marxist theory. Same with strengthening unions and so on. It's true leftists often dismiss these as "reformist" too quickly but if Co-ops and stronger unions aren't radicalized and if there is no truly leftist workers party to represent and fight for them then they do fall into reformism fairly quickly

what a retarded question. Co-op management is the workers why on earth would they need a union

That's a vague normative claim
I'm interested in the nuts and bolts

Right now unions will exist in co-ops primarily I think because co-ops freqeuntly have non-owner employees. There is a disincentive under certain conditions to include new worker-owners because you dilute the profit share, which seems systemic to the co-op economy. While worker-owners have secure, higher paying jobs than their bourgie counterpart firms, the incentives are to create a certain level of worker-ownership that maximizes the profit split across that group. In a capitalist firm, the owner may actually hire many more people, but at lower wages, because more marginal benefits accrue to him directly. The worker just needs to be profitable to increase his mass of profits, though of course declining marginal productivity may squeeze his profit rate which will be the deciding factor of his level of employment. But for the co-op the ceiling may be lower, because though a worker may be profitable, for an offering of equity to make financial sense to the other worker-owners the new worker-owner has to add more to the total mass of profits than the individual profit share before he joined. So say profits are $8, and you have 4 worker owners. Their profit share is $2 each. If they add another worker, and he produces profits of $1.5, their profit shares are reduced to $1.9. But if the new worker-owner produces $2 of profit, then the shares are maintained. If he produces more than that, the shares are increased.

Of course there are many cases in which rapid growth is occurring and so adding more workers is necessary, and the worker-owner WILL represent an increase in profit share for everyone. But there are also many cases in more mature, large companies where margins are already small and growth is low. In those cases further worker-ownership can seem less desirable than exploiting temporary or permanent employees. Of course, in cases where that may generally be not allowed like Yugoslavia you see the pernicious effect of systemic, high unemployment. I’m not “against” co-ops, but I don’t think they are a long-term solution.

This is the reply I left on your website. Re-posting here for more views.

Yes, worker coops are something we can work on NOW, but they are hard to get started. How do you get capital to get started? Most workers don't have much in savings and they don't want to risk it on one business. You also can't get a loan from a bank. If you go to a venture capitalist, they will want shares in your business, which makes it no longer a coop.

I think "Venture Communism" is the way forward. The venture commune will spurn off many worker run enterprises.
~Venture Capitalists are not interested in extending loans to start-ups. What they want is equity – they want shared ownership of the firm. And ideally they want a controlling stake in the firm. The problem with a loan, from their point-of-view, is that it can be paid off. At which point, the firm is entirely ours, and they have no further claim on the profits that our labour creates.

~Equity capital is essentially exploitative. And this is why Venture Capitalists want it. And since they have a monopoly on the supply of Capital they demand it, and get it.

~Venture Communism is a type of voluntary workers association, which supports the collective accumulation of Land and Capital. It has 2 key institutions: worker co-ops and the commune itself.

~My feeling is that finding commercial success is the least difficult condition to meet. You eventually find commercial success if you fund a sufficient number of business start-ups. So really this is a numbers game. It will eventually happen given enough attempts.

Blue text and image copied from ianwrightsite.wordpress.com/2018/08/02/venture-capitalism-versus-venture-communism/

I think there is an easy way to get the commune going: we could just take over a credit union! The benefits of taking over an existing institution are that we have instant access to capital and all of the systems are in place (IT, HR, accounting etc.)

1. Find a large credit union that has open membership, but not many members vote
2. Get all your radical friends to sign up
3. Get all the radicals to vote commies onto the board of directors

That's it! Now the credit union can extend loans to buy up the means of production. These assets are then rented to newly formed worker coops.

Since the venture commune is a credit union, it can also have its own payment system. Once we get large enough, we can have our own payment system like Visa, Mastercard of Alipay. This system will give a discount to purchases made from businesses within the commune, encouraging the growth of the commune's businesses.

now you're talkin'
great thread

not much to add except it's hard to meet people irl that wanna do this. u think making a peertube channel would be a good start to find interested people? i don't wanna self-snitch before it gets started but i also wanna shoot my shot

What do you mean by peertube exactly