Against idpol

On the off chance that anyone pro-idpol is reading this, please give it a chance and let me explain my reasoning before you put me in a box of being a 'brocialist'. I will admit not being as familiar with the work of intersectional theorists like Crenshaw as I should be.
These are my thoughts.

Here on anti-identitarian left, we dislike IDPOL. But the reasons for this are far more nuanced than are usually given credit for. The pro-idpol person reading this probably imagines that the anti idpol leftist is some white macho dudebro who is a barely reformed fashie that likes the economic parts of socialism only because they affect him personally, and doesn't have enough empathy or is ignorant of the struggles of other groups. And to be sure, there actually are some people that match that description and use 'anti idpol' as cover to be a douche. That is wrong. Racial discrimination is wrong. Homophobia is wrong. Bigotry in general is wrong. We all agree to this at least in principle on the left.

But that doesn't excuse problems with identity politics on the left.

1. Corporate Co-opting. When we see Colin Capernick getting nike endorsements, feminism being viewed positively by mainstream media outlets, etc. We can see that wokeness and corporate capitalism are not incompatible. that is not to say that feminism etc. are bad, but just that they do not challenge the system in as deep of a way. Indeed, if you look at many pride parades today its difficult to even tell that acceptance of and visibility for LGBT+ is the goal of the parade, or rather the glorification of the tech industry, as you see the marchers holding up signs that say INTEL, MICROSOFT, APPLE. You can have (and often do) major corporations endorse feminism and lgbt+ issues wheras amazon would obviously never endorse a march to increase the minimum wage or pro-union. This is the sort of "woke neoliberalism" epitomized by people such as Hillary Clinton and the tumblr crowd - The Californian ideology. Sex, Drugs, and fiscal conservatism.


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idpol has conditioned the left to a purely insult-based style of "debate" where the only tactic is to attack the speaker for one reason or another. The last resort of the bourgeois faggots is to claim that anti-idpol is also idpol, which can be true in some cases but they'll never admit to nuance now that they've been trained to attack anyone with different views than them.

We should make anti idpol left mainstream.

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Relevant images

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A couple more and also an article about the black Panthers work with the Young Patriots a group of SDS guys who reached out to white working class people in Appalachia and the Deep South (sorry for posting Jacobin but this article is good)

Footage of the Patriots and Panthers working together to build class consciousness

Fred Hampton's famous: "We're not going to fight capitalism with black capitalism we're going to fight it with socialism" speech

IdPol is a psyop and it's time to fight back imo. It doesn't have to be like this

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We as left should have clarified postion on:

this isn't your blog faggot

Money is privilege that above others minor privileges.

As many things under neoliberalism Left idpol was rooted in a place of earnestness but because of its preoccupation with changing the superstructure was easily co-opted by the Ruling Class and has been at an ever increasing rate since the 1970s. The only way to truly reach emancipation for one's cultural identity is to end capitalism and the only way to end capitalism is by putting differences aside. If cultural identity is the hammer you use to hit capitalism it will immediately become yet another brick in its growth.

Basically I think Parenti's line on idpol in these two speeches is a good one to follow and jump off from

Going to need someone else to fill this one in cuz I don't really know a lot about this word and idea. It seems to have replaced "solidarity" in left discourse however so I'm suspicious of it

Again this concept has a grain of truth in it but it's weaponized relentlessly and taken to insane extremes. It's also wholesale misunderstood by libs and radlibs as some sort of moral project when again it stems from the base. In America, for instance, there was a certain degree of white privilege even after jim crow but thats because continuing marginalization of blacks and other minorities made capitalists high enough profits without having to mess with middle class white people too much. However "middle class" and "certain degree" are key here. Poor white people have always had it hard as fuck in the USA and if you look into the history of slavery much racist propaganda was created to keep white people who only had it 1 percent better than slaves from uniting with them. Flash forward to today and the shrinking of the American middle class has created a lot of poor white people and a disproportionately black and Latino prison population. Except now there's IdPol so the black capitalists Fred Hampton decried can pretend that when you say "institutional racism" you're talking about them which leads poor white people to resentment and makes a lot of black people feel as if they need to defend them regardless of their class status.

Therefore the whole concept of particular privileges while somewhat true should be irrelevant for any Leftist movement or discourse. Just like the cultural identity thing you can only really get rid of whatever privileges do still exist by destroying capitalism and wage slavery.

See above it's literally all tied back to keeping people separated. We can acknowledge the particular abuses different races have had to face in the past while also being critical of cynical exploitation of these historical moments to create false consciousness in the proletariat. Norman Finkelstein's analysis of "the holocaust industry" and how it is used to preserve Israel's legitimacy is a good model to follow

Again don't really know much about this one

I'm fine with this personally. It's completely possible for a form of nationalism to exist alongside international solidarity. Leftists I think should understand the potential for a concept of the Nation as somrthing that transcends God and State and ethnic superiority rather than reinforces it.

That being said we shouldn't try to have some retarded alliance with fascists or whatever because they do the same thing idpol neolibs so with shit like white privilege but with ethnic supremacy. IdPol cuts both ways and any formulation of the Nation that isn't about transcending rather than reinforcing arbitrary concepts used to perpetuate capital accumulation is worthless

Again, this shit is giving a dose of heroin to someone with cancer and has a dual purpose: sedate those who might actually challenge the system and through the appearance of priveliging them get white workers to reinforce the system and give into false consciousness
If someone asks me not to call them a bigger I won't and I don't personally have that inclination anyway. If someone makes a joke that has the word nigger in it for bants and the person themself isn't racist nobody should give a fuck

See zizek for more on this

Idealist spook that is like all of this other shit is used cynically and cuts both ways

Ignore all of it tbh. Not ignore women in general but the entire feminist discourse (just like anything else in current leftist discourse that isn't class based) is cynical despite starting as a somewhat earnest project

See above.

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Remember that porky only became pro-sexual revolution and pro-feminist and so on because it both meant wider markets to sell to in the age of hyper consumerism, more workers with less resentment against the boss because he pretends to be woke, and more false consciousness raised among more conservative workers to keep them from uniting with minorities and women or at least make them suspect of "the left" being able to do anything for them.

Secondly sex work only has value because people enjoy seeing and fucking tits and ass and its becoming exceedingly difficult to do so in a non-market based fashion due to the atomization everyone lives in now. I'm not a moralfag but the majority of 1st world sex workers are just prostituting themselves to have some throwing around money and taking advantage of horny lonely guys with too much disposable income to get it. If sex work disappeared over night there would be literally no change at all except maybe people would have to jack off more to satisfy their urges.

It's literally the same as saying a cop or a troop are part of the proletariat because they are doing labor despite not being as immediately destructive to society.

Also almost all sex work outside of the 1st world is literal slavery that runs the risk of normalization if sex work discourse becomes anymore weaponized

Think for a moment about the argument liberals always make in favor of immigration. How many times have you heard some variant of; "Immigrants come here and do the hard and dirty jobs nobody else will do and also pay into the welfare system!" Basically they are saying that with immigrants doing all the hard work and paying into the system without reaping the benefits due to their status as illegals or in a legal gray zone not only does the ruling class now not have hordes of organized workers who they can't deport at a moments notice if they get angry about having to do hard work without a raise in wages, they can keep up appearances of caring about the working class do to being able to give people their pensions and so on without having to create more jobs for domestic laborers due to said immigrants.

This of course doesn't mean a blanket ban on immigration but the whole "abolish borders" shit radlibs always push directly profits people like the Koch bros and other porkies (see how fast Trump capitulated on the wall and the travel ban which was literally thought up under obama)

We should work to help immigrants being detained by ICE imo but again not out of moralism but materialism (trumps ramping up of ice and crackdowns on illegal immigrants has basically been a tax cut for the private prison industry similar to his obamacare was a glorified tax cut for private insurance)

This ties into the nationalism point as well. Most people would like to live in the place they grow up particularly in the 3rd world. It simply becomes impossible due to imperialism and by that I mean both literally due to war and debt slavery raping their nations and/or through relentless advertising and appeals to make the west seem better (partially what happened in the SU in the 70s and 80s)

Religion is on the nod already and will only be even moreso as capitalism accelerates. To actually answer the question though I personally think religion, similar to the concept of the Nation, can still exist and will still exist just in a different way when material conditions and productive relations change under socialism. Autistic and militant atheism is fucking stupid

The only religious orders you would have to persecute Hoxha style in the west are evangelical Christianity, Zionist judaism, Wahabist islam, and any kind of death cults like Heavens Gate or whatever imo

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Also I think the guy who made this video is a sort of Peterson liberal but this little documentary about Amy Schumer is a case study in how people weaponized and use idpol to move up in a socially liberal capitalist culture (not to say s.ocially conservative culture stops this from happening it just meant that the people doing this were fascists and conservatives rather than liberals and neoliberals and "progressives" read Blackshirts and Reds etc Hitler was a gay,soyboy etc) I highly recommend watching these vids, particularly the 2nd one to gain a good analyses of how pc culture and idpol is used by opportunists like Schumer to acquire more wealth and power it's pretty interesting despite discussing a topic most would think of as banal

If you don't want to sit through it the tl;dr is that Amy Schumer started her career by playing the "I'm a moderately attractive girl who isn't scared to hang with the fellas and make offensive jokes" character for money to the "I'm a woke influenced who uses comedy to challenge power by making a virtue out of what a fat pathetic slob I am and how proud I am of it". The level of opportunism from someone like Schumer is actually kind of intriguing. At one point in the documentary she uses her extremely removed relation to Chuck Schumer, a neoliberal democrat, who she says herself she didn't even know was her distant uncle or whatever until people pointed it out to her, to get media attention by being a gun grabber.

This board needs to stop with the class idpol and the idpol which denies New Afrikan struggle against settlers

nooooo you don't understand idpol is good, trust me I have 10,000 followers on twitter

By now I'm about 99% sure this poster is a slightly more learned faslfagger from Zig Forums. New Afrikans fucking shit up and scaring the burgers in Yankland will be quality though. So if you're not a falsefag, Godspeed.

This is literally how value works and I am going to bring this up every time: value exists because things require efforts to acquire.

Every single person using the black power flag has been a Zig Forums falseflagger. Every single one. There is nobody else who ever uses that flag.

>See zizek for more on this

You gave the wrong link

Settlers have it coming after 400 years of oppression. Just wait

Go back to worshiping your anti-semitic Anarchist idols, settler. Surely no one would TRULY believe that Amerika as a Settler state needs decolonized and destroyed, that there is retribution due for the 400 years of oppression! You anti-idpol settlers are a joke, products of a privileged caste who would throw New Afrikans under the bus if you could get your precious ethnostate communist dreams. Right wing crypto-reactionaries get out

You need more practice.

The state of this board. Must I remind you that many of your idols are people like Bakunin and Proudhon? Do you endorse that? I’m sure you do, since any mentioning of the New Afrikan struggle or of any oppressed people is brushed aside as “muh idpol”

Ok, Heinrich

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theory about the system of oppressions and how they can overlap
I agree with this critique of intersectionality:

Yeah, this is very true. And anyone who dares to criticize it gets called "strasserite" or "nazbol"
(For example check the comment section under this video by SEV:

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this is about decolonizing former settler colonies (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc.).
It is highly popular especially in maoist circles and supported by many maoist parties (PCR-RCP or so called "New Communist" movement)
These people are heavily influenced by the book called "Settlers" written by J. Sakai. Sakai argues in the book that there is no white proletariat in the US.

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it's not only that honestly
idpol in general is cancerous and anti-marxist in its nature
the whole concept of "this group is endangered give them spesh privileges and quotas" is ridicilous and anti-communist

Engels was openly aganist fags
Stalin criminilized faggotry
Stalin despised the Jews and called them godfathers of capitalism
I could go on for days

What does that mean exactly, what do they mean by "decolonizing"

I have an idea, let's start developing some brief but concise lines to help people fight identity politics in left-wing groups that doesn't just immediately send people off the deep end to label them as not being interested in helping fight racism, sexism, etc, but by showing how class supercedes and contains within itself a fight for "intersectionality".

We should talk about how things like racism are influenced by the resources a person has to either engage in or to avoid being afflicted by various identity attacks. It is much easier for a rich black man to avoid racial attacks than it is for a poor black man. We should talk about how a non-racist bourg who still pays his ethnic employees less than the value of their labor is subjecting them to greater vulnerability for identity attacks and prejudice. We should help them come to understand that a racist bourg is far more capable of doling out damage on their sexist biases than a worker is. It's useful to not deny that these things happen but rather to show that fighting capitalism implies fighting the capability of bigotry to effectively harm people.

I see the anarcho furfag is here to defend petite bourg Western women from evil brocialists who point out how stupid their "job" is yet again

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this just screams cointelpro

I haven't read the book but this is emprically false and believing it is approaching flat earth levels of denial

However, this is idpol just as any other and divorced from the times and the reasoning. We have very little information on Engels opinion of homosexuals other than he called people such while writing the equivalent of shitposts and that they most likely fell in line with the time. The "criminalization of homosexuality" was not targeted at homosexuals in particular, but very specifically aimed at combating pederasty. This can be seen in its application, where about 800 to 1000 men were arrested yearly for the crime. It should also be noted that female homosexuality is never mentioned. The law is as follows:
Some other information on the subject

the concept is "this group experiences systemic disadvantages so we'll give them a leg up here or there" you fucking retard
it's cool how every anti-idpol thread functions as a honeypot for the red chuds

Watch jimmy dore
Listen to Red Scare
Read Zizek
Read Fisher
Read Jodi Dean
Read wsws (ignore their autistic anti-trade union shit)
Subscribe to r/stupidpol
Subscribe to r/ChapoTrapHouse2 (The normal cth sub is full of she's now)
Join the IWW (It's way less cucked on idpol than Democrat Cops of America)

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Pic related it's you

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not him, but you have to be absolutely retarded to think that is a good idea when it's about gay people, minorities, etc.

in term of socio-economic status sure, i mean that's the fucknig base of communism, but anything else no

If you support the anti colonial struggle in Ireland and Palestine there's no reason not to support it in America

The very notion of "giving someone a leg up" is capitalist you liberal faggot. Advocate for universalism and solidarity or go vote for Alexandria "Socialism and Capitalism Can Coexist Reading Marx is for Nerds" Ocasio-Cortez again

Palestine and Ireland are anti-imperial not anti-colonial struggles and support for them should be predicated on anti imperialism not anticolonalism

The difference is that Ireland and Palestine are actually fucking being persecuted by Imperialists. Now before you talk about the DAPL, not only a native issue, it passes through the entire midwest, you twit I suggest you check yourself and stop crying about something from hundreds of years ago

It's almost like the primary difference between sex work and any other work is the ideology people attach to it.

Radicals don't treat symptoms and then call it a day, you basic bitch. The point is to solve the underlying systemic problems that cause the symptoms.

abolishing current "settler" states and creating black and indigenous states

This is literally anti materialist. Marx and Engels btfo this perspective in the fucking manifesto how the fuck is there a modern "marxist" movement based on it

lmao I was being descriptive not prescriptive you utter moron
this is like saying that marx was a capitalist because he wrote about capitalism

I'm having trouble imagining you detecting, let alone solving, any underlying problems when you can't even parse a simple sentence

Im not entirely that pro idpol, however i do believe a lot of more loudly anti-idpol groups tend to have some forms of more acceptance to some ideas im not entirely in agreeance with like anti-trans stuff and sometimes when you guys really get into the fervor of things you do tend to downplay certain issues like racial injusticies

That being said i still do believe thst a lot of the times people who are fery vocally pro idpol do open themeselves up to having their movements and messages being co-opted to liberalism and as someone whos involved in irl music communities theres always this sorta atmosphere of being as openly performative and shifting as much focus on idpol as possible for social clout thats annoying as fuck

feminism and postcolonial theory are SPOOKS

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So you don't think we should focus on reformism and liberalism and should instead build an actual working class left across cultural identities? I'm glad man for a second I thought you meant we should advocate for reparations and squeal every time a black millionaire gets cast in glorified military propaganda

Give me one specific example of something like this actually happening

You can't co opt something that was a ruling class project from the start:^)

Parsing is what you do when you read a sentence, not write it you dumbass. There's nothing wrong with the grammar there, either.

You see, at its core, the ideas behind idpol are not exclusively liberal. Progressive, sure, but not entirely liberal. What makes it liberal is the stress put on subjects and the actions. If you mention idpol issues along side class, and not making class a footnote to your ststement but like actually stressing class as well, then its not liberal, when people go on an entire circlejerk about idpol and never really actually focus on class (which happens imo a good 70% of the time), then it goes into the liberal spectrum.

I can give specific answers on downplaying issues on lgbtq stuff.

People wed idpol talking points to capitalism all the time by just throwing in "and yeah capitalism is why" at the end of it that doesn't mean it isn't a liberal analysis. It's really a shield from legitimate left criticism that makes many workers alienated from anticapitalist ideas because the people "critiquing" capitalism are also saying if you're a white person who has ever said the n word you should personally apologize to every single black person you see in public and going through tweets from a decade ago to cancel someone they don't like for making them feel uncomfortable for 2 seconds

Post them

These are dead debates. Before neoliberalism, it was fashion in third world countries to talk in terms of imperialist exploitation and not class exploitation. Ultimately, the conclusion was that the local bourgeoisie of third world countries was the ally of the proletariat, and that the proletariat of first world countries was the enemy who was ripping us off. With neoliberalism today, I don't see how anyone can really buy that. First world welfare states have gone bankrupt a long time ago.

this giy s0unds like he on theverge of crying everytime he speaks

on twitter they flat out say that once the state or capital has been defeated, the non indigenous are supposed to leave the continent or what ever ancestral (private) property they "own".

LMAO, I was talking about you parsing MY post, because your little "lesson" about radicals had nothing to do with what I actually wrote. But thanks for confirming the comment.

It’s important to note that idpol is a mere symptom of the wider problem of the left retreating away from class struggle and towards academia.

It means deporting “white” burgers to Europe.

They're extracting labor value from people now?

I guess drug kingpins are proles now too


The children of petit bourg aren't petit bourg because they don't own the business amirite

Are the children not collecting income on others' labor? Do they usually not stand to inherit the assets that their parents owned that collect money through business profit? They're usually still living heavily off their parents' money which came from exploitation.

This is some autistic shit

Wow it's almost like sex workers make most of their money from people with disposable income in a similar fashion the leech children of small business owners

And in a flash, the socialist concept of exploitation as being part of the process of value creation vanishes, to be replaced with the explicitly liberal concept of exploitation through exchange.

spoken like a true incel. smh

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This post is "Well actually the dictionary definition is" the post

Glad I know you're literally autistic so I can stop responding to u now

Pewdiepie is working class btw. So are chapo trap house


Pewdiepie actually probably gets a lot of his income though assets at this point.

Really not sure why you're trying to put social detritus in the same class as the ruling class.

Nah there was BPP who also used it but I don't think he posts anymore

You're also an idpoler

Oh, yeah, like two years ago or so. Still, it's mostly just Zig Forums bait as a flag.

Pewdiepie is working class
Will Smith is working class
Ninja is working class
Lady gaga is working class
Joe Rogan is working class
Black Pigeon Speaks is working class
Brad Pitt is working class
Twitch streamers are working class
The LA Beast is working class
Bodybuilders are working class
Those guys who go to vegan conventions and eat raw meat to own the libs are working class
Contrapoints is working class
The entire US Senate is working class
NEETs who live off the income of their dad who owns a guitar repair store and shit post about Jews all day are working class
Modern artists who sell a drop of red paint on a giant white canvass for 100000 dollars are working class
Carl Benjamin is working class
Tao Lin is working class
Lawyers are working class
Count Dankula is working class
That guy who drank his own cum to see if vegans taste better are working class
Jordan Peterson is working class

And I'd you disagree with me you're the one who misunderstands Marx

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Wait a second, are you that labor fetishist that tried to claim that factory work was a healthy good thing for people to do under socialism?

Nope. I just think it's ridiculous to insinuate that you aren't allowed to call someone petit bourg if they live that lifestyle to a t and do just as little labor for a comparable amount of money on average because they don't literally own private property

Its like when people are like "technically fascism and Nazism arent the same" it's just fucking stupid pedantic autistic drivel

And none of these people are exploited. The whole society operates like a vast inverted pyramid of oppression and surplus extraction. The only surplus that matters is that which is essential to survival – food production. If you’re producing food and it is appropriated from you by urbanites and non-producers, you’re being exploited. All other forms of exploitation are trivialities

So you'd rather throw out the idea of parasitism through property ownership as being absolutely core to the critique of capitalism just so you can throw a few market aberrations of social detritus in there?

Nuclear take.

If you call someone who acts petite bourg petite bourg despite then TECHNICALLY not LITERALLY being petite bourg you're going to destroy Marxism and leftist momentum in America
I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling or just a massive autist

Seems to me like you're getting upset your bit of ideology got thrown out

You're the one who thinks that I'm the cancer killing leftism because I disregarded the dictionary definition of petit bourg for two seconds.

We aren't allowed to call someone who is a neet who sells his plasma a lumped either cuz TECHNICALLY he did labor even though in every other feasible realm of his existence he acts like a lumpen

You're trying to make the claim that anyone doing sex work is making tens of thousands on a regular basis.
I don't see how that NEET would be anything other than lumpen though.

Idpol doesn't mean anything
You're wasting everyone's time with this horse shit, you dumbfuck splitter

Children are oppressing us, we must destroy them.

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fuck off /pol

If I recall, that quote is actually from the mouth of self described neo-nazi Kevin Alfred Strom, an ageing long-haul white nationalist convicted for child pornography. The reason we know this is that he wasn't happy that his writings were attributed to someone as famous as Voltaire, but has sperged out about it time and time again.
Since the (original) quote quite directly and unapologetically referred to Jews, I find it quite revealing that he could not simply just allow the quote spread in peace and exist as a dog-whistle. About his weak intelligence and fragile ego, particularly.

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Sex workers are either slaves or self employed petit bourg

The concept of "decriminalizing" or "legalizing" things is a sheepdogging tactic that can only be realized through capitalism (as opposed to socialism where these things will just be parts of society and thus the need to decriminalize or legalize then will be superfluous)


LGBT people are fine but Queer Culture is a stupid consumerist spook

Gang Culture is fascist and was imposed upon colored communities as a way to keep them consumer drones and stop them from organizing along class lines

Representation in capitalist media does literally nothing at all for any oppressed group or cultural identity

Anti-Colonialism is outdated and support for modern national liberation movements should be predicated on anti-imperialism (materialist) rather than some romantic notion of "decolonization" (idealist)

Fetishization of indigenous life and attempting to institutionalize protection of it is reactionary

Boomers and Gen X were directly cultivated and grown in a Petri dish to be the most anticommunist and hyper consumerist generations ever and thus while blanket intergenerational hatred is spooky and reactionary it isn't entirely out of the question to treat boomers and gen x as guilty until proven innocent particularly if they come from what's left of the middle class or petit bourg

Small business owners are shit

There is literally nothing revolutionary about the Democrat Cops of America

Class reductionism literally just means materialism

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They are labor aristocracy. Fuck them.

He and other big youtubers are class collaborationists working closely with youtube corporate.
Film producer (bourgeois) and participates in Scientology, which is a pyramid/racketeering scheme.
Probably worked as a producer, but she also did a performance at the superbowl that involved drones from a military contractor.
Business owner shilling bullshit supplements.
Regularly produces films.
Yes, generally speaking streamers work for tips.
Professionals often are. Hobbyists usually can only afford to spend the time and money if they're not.
Maybe. Some of them work for think tanks producing nothing worthwhile.
OK, obviously you have no idea how this works. They are part of the superstructure and get paid from surplus in bribes donations to do corporate bidding. Shit, not even public school teachers are technically working class because of being government employees who don't produce a commodity sold for a profit by a capitalist (although the form of their work makes them de facto in the same sort of position), but you picked the least-working-class people in the entire government.
NEETs who live off someone else's income are simultaneously reserve army of labor and petite bourgeois, as are NEET welfare recipients.
Sure, I guess?
He's running to be an MP, so not for long.
Absofuckinglutely not. Lawyers' work is all about making the legal system inscrutable so everyone needs them to do anything. They are worse than petite bourgeois or landlords. They are parasites on everybody.
I think? Someone saying stupid shit doesn't make them not working class.

It was literally to make fun of the faggot itt who can't comprehend why you should be allowed to call someone who makes thousands of dollars a day for doing an extremely low amount of work petite bourg despite then not technically owning private property but behaving like and living like a petite bourg i wasn't actually saying any of those people are working class

Well I didn't see that context my dude. Also hopefully the explanations help clarify the problem.

I really hate how "makes" and "earns" is used when talking about what someone receives, it reifies the legitimacy of it.

< Best Guess: $14K - $80K


It implies that someone actually created respectively deserves what he has, it is a specific instance of the just world fallacy.

How much you get paid has nothing to do with what class you belong to. Read Marx you fucking pseud.

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I#m sure those with that money don't have it invest. Guess a small business owner is worker too since he provides labour as a manager.

So, what, if a waitress buys some stock she's no longer working class?
You can earn any amount of money without investing it or getting it from surplus (although it's less likely the higher you go). No matter how much actual work a business owner does, they still exploit labor which makes them a capitalist. Class isn't a question of quantitative difference in earnings. It's a question of qualitative difference re: the relations of production.

But that's the point. If you make enough money to essentially function in society as a petit bourg do you still get to call yourself working class because technically you don't own any means and aren t exploiting the labor power of others? Thats one of the things about late capitalism (for lack of a better terms) that's kind of confusing, people now can technically not be a bourg but also not be a prole or a lumpen despite being that if you go by the strictest interpretation of Marx and Engels definitions

Maybe labour aristocracy is acbetter word, but if someone gets like 50k per month they will fairly quickly have a large amount of money coming in as capital gains.