Against idpol

Anthony Butler
Anthony Butler

On the off chance that anyone pro-idpol is reading this, please give it a chance and let me explain my reasoning before you put me in a box of being a 'brocialist'. I will admit not being as familiar with the work of intersectional theorists like Crenshaw as I should be.
These are my thoughts.

Here on anti-identitarian left, we dislike IDPOL. But the reasons for this are far more nuanced than are usually given credit for. The pro-idpol person reading this probably imagines that the anti idpol leftist is some white macho dudebro who is a barely reformed fashie that likes the economic parts of socialism only because they affect him personally, and doesn't have enough empathy or is ignorant of the struggles of other groups. And to be sure, there actually are some people that match that description and use 'anti idpol' as cover to be a douche. That is wrong. Racial discrimination is wrong. Homophobia is wrong. Bigotry in general is wrong. We all agree to this at least in principle on the left.

But that doesn't excuse problems with identity politics on the left.

1. Corporate Co-opting. When we see Colin Capernick getting nike endorsements, feminism being viewed positively by mainstream media outlets, etc. We can see that wokeness and corporate capitalism are not incompatible. that is not to say that feminism etc. are bad, but just that they do not challenge the system in as deep of a way. Indeed, if you look at many pride parades today its difficult to even tell that acceptance of and visibility for LGBT+ is the goal of the parade, or rather the glorification of the tech industry, as you see the marchers holding up signs that say INTEL, MICROSOFT, APPLE. You can have (and often do) major corporations endorse feminism and lgbt+ issues wheras amazon would obviously never endorse a march to increase the minimum wage or pro-union. This is the sort of "woke neoliberalism" epitomized by people such as Hillary Clinton and the tumblr crowd - The Californian ideology. Sex, Drugs, and fiscal conservatism.

fulltext: supremereality.us/home/thread?id=idpol-and-the-anti-idpol-left

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Other urls found in this thread:

jakkkobinmag.com/2017/05/black-panthers-young-patriots-fred-hampton
youtu.be/RPTwDO0sh-E
youtu.be/fJSqZrVjDds
youtu.be/n79kRP5RB2M
youtu.be/ZkttzU86CFE
youtu.be/1uNIID5R4pM
youtu.be/hLol6THNWYQ
youtu.be/jolVzxxsar0
libcom.org/library/i-am-woman-human-marxist-feminist-critique-intersectionality-theory-eve-mitchell
youtube.com/watch?v=0vnLzfRqPS8)
stalinsociety.org/2015/04/08/homosexuality-in-the-ussr/
leftypol.fandom.com/wiki/Idpol
pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-02-09.htm

Jason Phillips
Jason Phillips

idpol has conditioned the left to a purely insult-based style of "debate" where the only tactic is to attack the speaker for one reason or another. The last resort of the bourgeois faggots is to claim that anti-idpol is also idpol, which can be true in some cases but they'll never admit to nuance now that they've been trained to attack anyone with different views than them.

Benjamin Campbell
Benjamin Campbell

We should make anti idpol left mainstream.

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Mason Torres
Mason Torres

Relevant images

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Jace Fisher
Jace Fisher

A couple more and also an article about the black Panthers work with the Young Patriots a group of SDS guys who reached out to white working class people in Appalachia and the Deep South (sorry for posting Jacobin but this article is good)
jakkkobinmag.com/2017/05/black-panthers-young-patriots-fred-hampton

Footage of the Patriots and Panthers working together to build class consciousness
youtu.be/RPTwDO0sh-E

Fred Hampton's famous: "We're not going to fight capitalism with black capitalism we're going to fight it with socialism" speech
youtu.be/fJSqZrVjDds

IdPol is a psyop and it's time to fight back imo. It doesn't have to be like this

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Kevin Hall
Kevin Hall

We as left should have clarified postion on:
identity politics in general
intersectionality
"privileges"
concept of "whiteness" and race in general
"settlerism" or "settler colonialism"
supporting of certain forms of nationalism (especially in former colonies like South Africa)
affirmative actions and progressive stacks
political corectness
"frozen peaches"
various types of feminism (radical, anarco, "gender critical" etc.)
lgbt, trans, queer issues etc.
"sex work"
open borders and immigration
religion

Luis Martinez
Luis Martinez

this isn't your blog faggot

Thomas Gomez
Thomas Gomez

Money is privilege that above others minor privileges.

Andrew Morgan
Andrew Morgan

identity politics in general
As many things under neoliberalism Left idpol was rooted in a place of earnestness but because of its preoccupation with changing the superstructure was easily co-opted by the Ruling Class and has been at an ever increasing rate since the 1970s. The only way to truly reach emancipation for one's cultural identity is to end capitalism and the only way to end capitalism is by putting differences aside. If cultural identity is the hammer you use to hit capitalism it will immediately become yet another brick in its growth.

Basically I think Parenti's line on idpol in these two speeches is a good one to follow and jump off from
youtu.be/n79kRP5RB2M

youtu.be/ZkttzU86CFE

intersectionality
Going to need someone else to fill this one in cuz I don't really know a lot about this word and idea. It seems to have replaced "solidarity" in left discourse however so I'm suspicious of it

"privileges"
Again this concept has a grain of truth in it but it's weaponized relentlessly and taken to insane extremes. It's also wholesale misunderstood by libs and radlibs as some sort of moral project when again it stems from the base. In America, for instance, there was a certain degree of white privilege even after jim crow but thats because continuing marginalization of blacks and other minorities made capitalists high enough profits without having to mess with middle class white people too much. However "middle class" and "certain degree" are key here. Poor white people have always had it hard as fuck in the USA and if you look into the history of slavery much racist propaganda was created to keep white people who only had it 1 percent better than slaves from uniting with them. Flash forward to today and the shrinking of the American middle class has created a lot of poor white people and a disproportionately black and Latino prison population. Except now there's IdPol so the black capitalists Fred Hampton decried can pretend that when you say "institutional racism" you're talking about them which leads poor white people to resentment and makes a lot of black people feel as if they need to defend them regardless of their class status.

Therefore the whole concept of particular privileges while somewhat true should be irrelevant for any Leftist movement or discourse. Just like the cultural identity thing you can only really get rid of whatever privileges do still exist by destroying capitalism and wage slavery.

concept of "whiteness" and race in general
See above it's literally all tied back to keeping people separated. We can acknowledge the particular abuses different races have had to face in the past while also being critical of cynical exploitation of these historical moments to create false consciousness in the proletariat. Norman Finkelstein's analysis of "the holocaust industry" and how it is used to preserve Israel's legitimacy is a good model to follow

"settlerism" or "settler colonialism"
Again don't really know much about this one

supporting of certain forms of nationalism (especially in former colonies like South Africa)
I'm fine with this personally. It's completely possible for a form of nationalism to exist alongside international solidarity. Leftists I think should understand the potential for a concept of the Nation as somrthing that transcends God and State and ethnic superiority rather than reinforces it.

That being said we shouldn't try to have some retarded alliance with fascists or whatever because they do the same thing idpol neolibs so with shit like white privilege but with ethnic supremacy. IdPol cuts both ways and any formulation of the Nation that isn't about transcending rather than reinforcing arbitrary concepts used to perpetuate capital accumulation is worthless

affirmative actions and progressive stacks
Again, this shit is giving a dose of heroin to someone with cancer and has a dual purpose: sedate those who might actually challenge the system and through the appearance of priveliging them get white workers to reinforce the system and give into false consciousness
political corectness
If someone asks me not to call them a bigger I won't and I don't personally have that inclination anyway. If someone makes a joke that has the word nigger in it for bants and the person themself isn't racist nobody should give a fuck

See zizek for more on this
youtu.be/1uNIID5R4pM

"frozen peaches"
Idealist spook that is like all of this other shit is used cynically and cuts both ways

various types of feminism (radical, anarco, "gender critical" etc.)
Ignore all of it tbh. Not ignore women in general but the entire feminist discourse (just like anything else in current leftist discourse that isn't class based) is cynical despite starting as a somewhat earnest project

lgbt, trans, queer issues etc.
See above.

Concluded in next post

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Alexander Powell
Alexander Powell

"sex work"
Remember that porky only became pro-sexual revolution and pro-feminist and so on because it both meant wider markets to sell to in the age of hyper consumerism, more workers with less resentment against the boss because he pretends to be woke, and more false consciousness raised among more conservative workers to keep them from uniting with minorities and women or at least make them suspect of "the left" being able to do anything for them.

Secondly sex work only has value because people enjoy seeing and fucking tits and ass and its becoming exceedingly difficult to do so in a non-market based fashion due to the atomization everyone lives in now. I'm not a moralfag but the majority of 1st world sex workers are just prostituting themselves to have some throwing around money and taking advantage of horny lonely guys with too much disposable income to get it. If sex work disappeared over night there would be literally no change at all except maybe people would have to jack off more to satisfy their urges.

It's literally the same as saying a cop or a troop are part of the proletariat because they are doing labor despite not being as immediately destructive to society.

Also almost all sex work outside of the 1st world is literal slavery that runs the risk of normalization if sex work discourse becomes anymore weaponized

open borders and immigration
Think for a moment about the argument liberals always make in favor of immigration. How many times have you heard some variant of; "Immigrants come here and do the hard and dirty jobs nobody else will do and also pay into the welfare system!" Basically they are saying that with immigrants doing all the hard work and paying into the system without reaping the benefits due to their status as illegals or in a legal gray zone not only does the ruling class now not have hordes of organized workers who they can't deport at a moments notice if they get angry about having to do hard work without a raise in wages, they can keep up appearances of caring about the working class do to being able to give people their pensions and so on without having to create more jobs for domestic laborers due to said immigrants.

This of course doesn't mean a blanket ban on immigration but the whole "abolish borders" shit radlibs always push directly profits people like the Koch bros and other porkies (see how fast Trump capitulated on the wall and the travel ban which was literally thought up under obama)

We should work to help immigrants being detained by ICE imo but again not out of moralism but materialism (trumps ramping up of ice and crackdowns on illegal immigrants has basically been a tax cut for the private prison industry similar to his obamacare was a glorified tax cut for private insurance)

This ties into the nationalism point as well. Most people would like to live in the place they grow up particularly in the 3rd world. It simply becomes impossible due to imperialism and by that I mean both literally due to war and debt slavery raping their nations and/or through relentless advertising and appeals to make the west seem better (partially what happened in the SU in the 70s and 80s)

religion
Religion is on the nod already and will only be even moreso as capitalism accelerates. To actually answer the question though I personally think religion, similar to the concept of the Nation, can still exist and will still exist just in a different way when material conditions and productive relations change under socialism. Autistic and militant atheism is fucking stupid

The only religious orders you would have to persecute Hoxha style in the west are evangelical Christianity, Zionist judaism, Wahabist islam, and any kind of death cults like Heavens Gate or whatever imo

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Dylan Richardson
Dylan Richardson

Also I think the guy who made this video is a sort of Peterson liberal but this little documentary about Amy Schumer is a case study in how people weaponized and use idpol to move up in a socially liberal capitalist culture (not to say s.ocially conservative culture stops this from happening it just meant that the people doing this were fascists and conservatives rather than liberals and neoliberals and "progressives" read Blackshirts and Reds etc Hitler was a gay,soyboy etc) I highly recommend watching these vids, particularly the 2nd one to gain a good analyses of how pc culture and idpol is used by opportunists like Schumer to acquire more wealth and power it's pretty interesting despite discussing a topic most would think of as banal

youtu.be/hLol6THNWYQ
youtu.be/jolVzxxsar0

If you don't want to sit through it the tl;dr is that Amy Schumer started her career by playing the "I'm a moderately attractive girl who isn't scared to hang with the fellas and make offensive jokes" character for money to the "I'm a woke influenced who uses comedy to challenge power by making a virtue out of what a fat pathetic slob I am and how proud I am of it". The level of opportunism from someone like Schumer is actually kind of intriguing. At one point in the documentary she uses her extremely removed relation to Chuck Schumer, a neoliberal democrat, who she says herself she didn't even know was her distant uncle or whatever until people pointed it out to her, to get media attention by being a gun grabber.

Julian Brooks
Julian Brooks

This board needs to stop with the class idpol and the idpol which denies New Afrikan struggle against settlers

Connor Cooper
Connor Cooper

nooooo you don't understand idpol is good, trust me I have 10,000 followers on twitter

Isaac Hughes
Isaac Hughes

By now I'm about 99% sure this poster is a slightly more learned faslfagger from /pol/. New Afrikans fucking shit up and scaring the burgers in Yankland will be quality though. So if you're not a falsefag, Godspeed.

Nolan Gomez
Nolan Gomez

Secondly sex work only has value because people enjoy seeing and fucking tits and ass and its becoming exceedingly difficult to do so in a non-market based fashion due to the atomization everyone lives in now.
This is literally how value works and I am going to bring this up every time: value exists because things require efforts to acquire.

Isaac Smith
Isaac Smith

Every single person using the black power flag has been a /pol/ falseflagger. Every single one. There is nobody else who ever uses that flag.

John Edwards
John Edwards

See zizek for more on this youtu.be/1uNIID5R4pM

You gave the wrong link

Jonathan Campbell
Jonathan Campbell

New Afrikans fucking shit up and scaring the burgers in Yankland will be quality though. So if you're not a falsefag, Godspeed
Settlers have it coming after 400 years of oppression. Just wait
Go back to worshiping your anti-semitic Anarchist idols, settler. Surely no one would TRULY believe that Amerika as a Settler state needs decolonized and destroyed, that there is retribution due for the 400 years of oppression! You anti-idpol settlers are a joke, products of a privileged caste who would throw New Afrikans under the bus if you could get your precious ethnostate communist dreams. Right wing crypto-reactionaries get out

Logan Allen
Logan Allen

anti-semitic
You need more practice.

Juan Collins
Juan Collins

calling out anti-semites is /pol/
The state of this board. Must I remind you that many of your idols are people like Bakunin and Proudhon? Do you endorse that? I’m sure you do, since any mentioning of the New Afrikan struggle or of any oppressed people is brushed aside as “muh idpol”

Jack Russell
Jack Russell

Bakunin
Proudhon
Marx
All racist for calling out religions
Settlers have it coming after 400 years of oppression.
Karma
Ok, Heinrich

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Aaron Nelson
Aaron Nelson

this

Brayden Bailey
Brayden Bailey

intersectionality
theory about the system of oppressions and how they can overlap
I agree with this critique of intersectionality: libcom.org/library/i-am-woman-human-marxist-feminist-critique-intersectionality-theory-eve-mitchell

It seems to have replaced "solidarity" in left discourse however so I'm suspicious of it
Yeah, this is very true. And anyone who dares to criticize it gets called "strasserite" or "nazbol"
(For example check the comment section under this video by SEV: youtube.com/watch?v=0vnLzfRqPS8)

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Chase Rivera
Chase Rivera

"settler colonialism"
this is about decolonizing former settler colonies (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc.).
It is highly popular especially in maoist circles and supported by many maoist parties (PCR-RCP or so called "New Communist" movement)
These people are heavily influenced by the book called "Settlers" written by J. Sakai. Sakai argues in the book that there is no white proletariat in the US.

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Matthew Morgan
Matthew Morgan

it's not only that honestly
idpol in general is cancerous and anti-marxist in its nature
the whole concept of "this group is endangered give them spesh privileges and quotas" is ridicilous and anti-communist

Engels was openly aganist fags
Stalin criminilized faggotry
Stalin despised the Jews and called them godfathers of capitalism
.
I could go on for days

Isaiah Garcia
Isaiah Garcia

decolonizing former settler colonies (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc.).
What does that mean exactly, what do they mean by "decolonizing"

Camden White
Camden White

I have an idea, let's start developing some brief but concise lines to help people fight identity politics in left-wing groups that doesn't just immediately send people off the deep end to label them as not being interested in helping fight racism, sexism, etc, but by showing how class supercedes and contains within itself a fight for "intersectionality".

We should talk about how things like racism are influenced by the resources a person has to either engage in or to avoid being afflicted by various identity attacks. It is much easier for a rich black man to avoid racial attacks than it is for a poor black man. We should talk about how a non-racist bourg who still pays his ethnic employees less than the value of their labor is subjecting them to greater vulnerability for identity attacks and prejudice. We should help them come to understand that a racist bourg is far more capable of doling out damage on their sexist biases than a worker is. It's useful to not deny that these things happen but rather to show that fighting capitalism implies fighting the capability of bigotry to effectively harm people.

Jeremiah Fisher
Jeremiah Fisher

I see the anarcho furfag is here to defend petite bourg Western women from evil brocialists who point out how stupid their "job" is yet again

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Chase Harris
Chase Harris

this just screams cointelpro

David Rivera
David Rivera

there is no white proletariat in the USA
I haven't read the book but this is emprically false and believing it is approaching flat earth levels of denial

Ian Bennett
Ian Bennett

the whole concept of "this group is endangered give them spesh privileges and quotas" is ridicilous and anti-communist
Agreed
Engels was openly aganist fags
Stalin criminilized faggotry
Stalin despised the Jews and called them godfathers of capitalism
However, this is idpol just as any other and divorced from the times and the reasoning. We have very little information on Engels opinion of homosexuals other than he called people such while writing the equivalent of shitposts and that they most likely fell in line with the time. The "criminalization of homosexuality" was not targeted at homosexuals in particular, but very specifically aimed at combating pederasty. This can be seen in its application, where about 800 to 1000 men were arrested yearly for the crime. It should also be noted that female homosexuality is never mentioned. The law is as follows:
Pederasty
Sexual relations of a man with a man (pederasty), Shall be punished by deprivation of freedom for a term of up to five years. Pederasty committed with the application of physical force, or threats, or with respect to a minor, or with taking advantage of the dependent position of the victim, Shall be punished by deprivation of freedom for a term of up to eight years.’
Some other information on the subject
stalinsociety.org/2015/04/08/homosexuality-in-the-ussr/

Adrian Diaz
Adrian Diaz

the whole concept of "this group is endangered give them spesh privileges and quotas" is ridicilous and anti-communist
the concept is "this group experiences systemic disadvantages so we'll give them a leg up here or there" you fucking retard
it's cool how every anti-idpol thread functions as a honeypot for the red chuds

Juan Watson
Juan Watson

Watch jimmy dore
Listen to Red Scare
Read Zizek
Read Fisher
Read Jodi Dean
Read wsws (ignore their autistic anti-trade union shit)
Subscribe to r/stupidpol
Subscribe to r/ChapoTrapHouse2 (The normal cth sub is full of she's now)
Join the IWW (It's way less cucked on idpol than Democrat Cops of America)

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Adrian Powell
Adrian Powell

red chuds
chuds
Pic related it's you

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Jonathan Anderson
Jonathan Anderson

the concept is "this group experiences systemic disadvantages so we'll give them a leg up here or there" you fucking retard
not him, but you have to be absolutely retarded to think that is a good idea when it's about gay people, minorities, etc.

in term of socio-economic status sure, i mean that's the fucknig base of communism, but anything else no

James Howard
James Howard

If you support the anti colonial struggle in Ireland and Palestine there's no reason not to support it in America

Camden Harris
Camden Harris

The very notion of "giving someone a leg up" is capitalist you liberal faggot. Advocate for universalism and solidarity or go vote for Alexandria "Socialism and Capitalism Can Coexist Reading Marx is for Nerds" Ocasio-Cortez again

Luke Flores
Luke Flores

Palestine and Ireland are anti-imperial not anti-colonial struggles and support for them should be predicated on anti imperialism not anticolonalism

Carter Edwards
Carter Edwards

The difference is that Ireland and Palestine are actually fucking being persecuted by Imperialists. Now before you talk about the DAPL, not only a native issue, it passes through the entire midwest, you twit I suggest you check yourself and stop crying about something from hundreds of years ago

Jackson Carter
Jackson Carter

It's almost like the primary difference between sex work and any other work is the ideology people attach to it.

Radicals don't treat symptoms and then call it a day, you basic bitch. The point is to solve the underlying systemic problems that cause the symptoms.

Dominic Rivera
Dominic Rivera

What does that mean exactly, what do they mean by "decolonizing"
abolishing current "settler" states and creating black and indigenous states

Adrian Martin
Adrian Martin

This is literally anti materialist. Marx and Engels btfo this perspective in the fucking manifesto how the fuck is there a modern "marxist" movement based on it

Kevin Baker
Kevin Baker

The very notion of "giving someone a leg up" is capitalist you liberal faggot
lmao I was being descriptive not prescriptive you utter moron
this is like saying that marx was a capitalist because he wrote about capitalism

Angel Miller
Angel Miller

Radicals don't treat symptoms and then call it a day, you basic bitch. The point is to solve the underlying systemic problems that cause the symptoms
I'm having trouble imagining you detecting, let alone solving, any underlying problems when you can't even parse a simple sentence

Dylan Long
Dylan Long

Im not entirely that pro idpol, however i do believe a lot of more loudly anti-idpol groups tend to have some forms of more acceptance to some ideas im not entirely in agreeance with like anti-trans stuff and sometimes when you guys really get into the fervor of things you do tend to downplay certain issues like racial injusticies

That being said i still do believe thst a lot of the times people who are fery vocally pro idpol do open themeselves up to having their movements and messages being co-opted to liberalism and as someone whos involved in irl music communities theres always this sorta atmosphere of being as openly performative and shifting as much focus on idpol as possible for social clout thats annoying as fuck

Charles Myers
Charles Myers

feminism and postcolonial theory are SPOOKS

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Landon Hall
Landon Hall

So you don't think we should focus on reformism and liberalism and should instead build an actual working class left across cultural identities? I'm glad man for a second I thought you meant we should advocate for reparations and squeal every time a black millionaire gets cast in glorified military propaganda

Luke Jones
Luke Jones

sometimes when you guys really get into the fervor of things you do tend to downplay certain issues like racial injusticies
Give me one specific example of something like this actually happening

That being said i still do believe thst a lot of the times people who are fery vocally pro idpol do open themeselves up to having their movements and messages being co-opted to liberalism and as someone whos involved in irl music communities theres always this sorta atmosphere of being as openly performative and shifting as much focus on idpol as possible for social clout thats annoying as fuck
You can't co opt something that was a ruling class project from the start:^)

Chase Taylor
Chase Taylor

Parsing is what you do when you read a sentence, not write it you dumbass. There's nothing wrong with the grammar there, either.

Nathan Cook
Nathan Cook

You can't co opt something that was a ruling class project from the start:^)
You see, at its core, the ideas behind idpol are not exclusively liberal. Progressive, sure, but not entirely liberal. What makes it liberal is the stress put on subjects and the actions. If you mention idpol issues along side class, and not making class a footnote to your ststement but like actually stressing class as well, then its not liberal, when people go on an entire circlejerk about idpol and never really actually focus on class (which happens imo a good 70% of the time), then it goes into the liberal spectrum.

I can give specific answers on downplaying issues on lgbtq stuff.

Nicholas Peterson
Nicholas Peterson

People wed idpol talking points to capitalism all the time by just throwing in "and yeah capitalism is why" at the end of it that doesn't mean it isn't a liberal analysis. It's really a shield from legitimate left criticism that makes many workers alienated from anticapitalist ideas because the people "critiquing" capitalism are also saying if you're a white person who has ever said the n word you should personally apologize to every single black person you see in public and going through tweets from a decade ago to cancel someone they don't like for making them feel uncomfortable for 2 seconds

I can post examples
Post them

Andrew Howard
Andrew Howard

These are dead debates. Before neoliberalism, it was fashion in third world countries to talk in terms of imperialist exploitation and not class exploitation. Ultimately, the conclusion was that the local bourgeoisie of third world countries was the ally of the proletariat, and that the proletariat of first world countries was the enemy who was ripping us off. With neoliberalism today, I don't see how anyone can really buy that. First world welfare states have gone bankrupt a long time ago.

Elijah Thompson
Elijah Thompson

this giy s0unds like he on theverge of crying everytime he speaks

Cameron Nguyen
Cameron Nguyen

on twitter they flat out say that once the state or capital has been defeated, the non indigenous are supposed to leave the continent or what ever ancestral (private) property they "own".

Brandon Fisher
Brandon Fisher

LMAO, I was talking about you parsing MY post, because your little "lesson" about radicals had nothing to do with what I actually wrote. But thanks for confirming the comment.

Landon Russell
Landon Russell

It’s important to note that idpol is a mere symptom of the wider problem of the left retreating away from class struggle and towards academia.
It means deporting “white” burgers to Europe.

Lucas Barnes
Lucas Barnes

petite bourg
They're extracting labor value from people now?

Alexander Hernandez
Alexander Hernandez

it doesn't matter if they are petite bourg in ever single way other than literally owning a smal business if they don't own a small business they are proletariat even if they make 2000 dollars in one night by flashing their tits on the internet
I guess drug kingpins are proles now too

Henry Bennett
Henry Bennett

it doesn't matter if they're something in every way other than the definition of what it means to be that thing
Lmao

Lucas Mitchell
Lucas Mitchell

The children of petit bourg aren't petit bourg because they don't own the business amirite

Matthew Price
Matthew Price

Are the children not collecting income on others' labor? Do they usually not stand to inherit the assets that their parents owned that collect money through business profit? They're usually still living heavily off their parents' money which came from exploitation.

Benjamin Collins
Benjamin Collins

someone who makes anywhere from a modest living to 10s of 1000s a year for doing literally nothing but masturbating on a webcam or stepping on a perverts balls is exactly the same as someone who barely makes ends meet after a years worth of work at a shit fast food restaraunts where they get filthy and are screamed at all day everyday because neither one owns a small business
This is some autistic shit

Liam Rogers
Liam Rogers

Wow it's almost like sex workers make most of their money from people with disposable income in a similar fashion the leech children of small business owners

Jayden Hughes
Jayden Hughes

And in a flash, the socialist concept of exploitation as being part of the process of value creation vanishes, to be replaced with the explicitly liberal concept of exploitation through exchange.

Anthony Peterson
Anthony Peterson

spoken like a true incel. smh
@simoneDbongwaterXD
@submissivetopmisstrish

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Ryan Harris
Ryan Harris

This post is "Well actually the dictionary definition is" the post

Glad I know you're literally autistic so I can stop responding to u now

Kevin Garcia
Kevin Garcia

Pewdiepie is working class btw. So are chapo trap house

Anthony Green
Anthony Green

camgirls are hoarding titty and parasitizing off the addition of titties into society!

Logan Scott
Logan Scott

Pewdiepie actually probably gets a lot of his income though assets at this point.

Really not sure why you're trying to put social detritus in the same class as the ruling class.

Nathaniel Hall
Nathaniel Hall

Nah there was BPP who also used it but I don't think he posts anymore

Blake Howard
Blake Howard

You're also an idpoler

Benjamin Gomez
Benjamin Gomez

Oh, yeah, like two years ago or so. Still, it's mostly just /pol/ bait as a flag.

Zachary Evans
Zachary Evans

Pewdiepie is working class
Will Smith is working class
Ninja is working class
Lady gaga is working class
Joe Rogan is working class
Black Pigeon Speaks is working class
Brad Pitt is working class
Twitch streamers are working class
The LA Beast is working class
Bodybuilders are working class
Those guys who go to vegan conventions and eat raw meat to own the libs are working class
Contrapoints is working class
The entire US Senate is working class
NEETs who live off the income of their dad who owns a guitar repair store and shit post about Jews all day are working class
Modern artists who sell a drop of red paint on a giant white canvass for 100000 dollars are working class
Carl Benjamin is working class
Tao Lin is working class
Lawyers are working class
Count Dankula is working class
That guy who drank his own cum to see if vegans taste better are working class
Jordan Peterson is working class

And I'd you disagree with me you're the one who misunderstands Marx

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James White
James White

Wait a second, are you that labor fetishist that tried to claim that factory work was a healthy good thing for people to do under socialism?

Matthew Ortiz
Matthew Ortiz

Nope. I just think it's ridiculous to insinuate that you aren't allowed to call someone petit bourg if they live that lifestyle to a t and do just as little labor for a comparable amount of money on average because they don't literally own private property

Its like when people are like "technically fascism and Nazism arent the same" it's just fucking stupid pedantic autistic drivel

Anthony Rivera
Anthony Rivera

And none of these people are exploited. The whole society operates like a vast inverted pyramid of oppression and surplus extraction. The only surplus that matters is that which is essential to survival – food production. If you’re producing food and it is appropriated from you by urbanites and non-producers, you’re being exploited. All other forms of exploitation are trivialities

Austin Powell
Austin Powell

So you'd rather throw out the idea of parasitism through property ownership as being absolutely core to the critique of capitalism just so you can throw a few market aberrations of social detritus in there?

Xavier Gutierrez
Xavier Gutierrez

Nuclear take.

Brandon Anderson
Brandon Anderson

If you call someone who acts petite bourg petite bourg despite then TECHNICALLY not LITERALLY being petite bourg you're going to destroy Marxism and leftist momentum in America
I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling or just a massive autist

Isaac Ward
Isaac Ward

Seems to me like you're getting upset your bit of ideology got thrown out

Matthew White
Matthew White

You're the one who thinks that I'm the cancer killing leftism because I disregarded the dictionary definition of petit bourg for two seconds.

We aren't allowed to call someone who is a neet who sells his plasma a lumped either cuz TECHNICALLY he did labor even though in every other feasible realm of his existence he acts like a lumpen

Kayden Phillips
Kayden Phillips

You're trying to make the claim that anyone doing sex work is making tens of thousands on a regular basis.
I don't see how that NEET would be anything other than lumpen though.

Christopher Butler
Christopher Butler

Idpol doesn't mean anything
You're wasting everyone's time with this horse shit, you dumbfuck splitter

Ethan Cook
Ethan Cook

Children are oppressing us, we must destroy them.

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Ryan Scott
Ryan Scott

fuck off /pol

John Ward
John Ward

If I recall, that quote is actually from the mouth of self described neo-nazi Kevin Alfred Strom, an ageing long-haul white nationalist convicted for child pornography. The reason we know this is that he wasn't happy that his writings were attributed to someone as famous as Voltaire, but has sperged out about it time and time again.
Since the (original) quote quite directly and unapologetically referred to Jews, I find it quite revealing that he could not simply just allow the quote spread in peace and exist as a dog-whistle. About his weak intelligence and fragile ego, particularly.

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Easton Hernandez
Easton Hernandez

Sex workers are either slaves or self employed petit bourg

The concept of "decriminalizing" or "legalizing" things is a sheepdogging tactic that can only be realized through capitalism (as opposed to socialism where these things will just be parts of society and thus the need to decriminalize or legalize then will be superfluous)

Solidariry>Intersectionality

LGBT people are fine but Queer Culture is a stupid consumerist spook

Gang Culture is fascist and was imposed upon colored communities as a way to keep them consumer drones and stop them from organizing along class lines

Representation in capitalist media does literally nothing at all for any oppressed group or cultural identity

Anti-Colonialism is outdated and support for modern national liberation movements should be predicated on anti-imperialism (materialist) rather than some romantic notion of "decolonization" (idealist)

Fetishization of indigenous life and attempting to institutionalize protection of it is reactionary

Boomers and Gen X were directly cultivated and grown in a Petri dish to be the most anticommunist and hyper consumerist generations ever and thus while blanket intergenerational hatred is spooky and reactionary it isn't entirely out of the question to treat boomers and gen x as guilty until proven innocent particularly if they come from what's left of the middle class or petit bourg

Small business owners are shit

There is literally nothing revolutionary about the Democrat Cops of America

Class reductionism literally just means materialism

Jaxson Cruz
Jaxson Cruz

there are people lurking this board right now who think the person in pic related has any connection or concern for building communism or the working class

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Matthew Gonzalez
Matthew Gonzalez

They are labor aristocracy. Fuck them.

Justin Reyes
Justin Reyes

Pewdiepie is working class
He and other big youtubers are class collaborationists working closely with youtube corporate.
Will Smith is working class
Film producer (bourgeois) and participates in Scientology, which is a pyramid/racketeering scheme.
Ninja is working class
who
Lady gaga is working class
Probably worked as a producer, but she also did a performance at the superbowl that involved drones from a military contractor.
Joe Rogan is working class
Business owner shilling bullshit supplements.
Black Pigeon Speaks is working class
who
Brad Pitt is working class
Regularly produces films.
Twitch streamers are working class
Yes, generally speaking streamers work for tips.
The LA Beast is working class
who
Bodybuilders are working class
Professionals often are. Hobbyists usually can only afford to spend the time and money if they're not.
Those guys who go to vegan conventions and eat raw meat to own the libs are working class
Maybe. Some of them work for think tanks producing nothing worthwhile.
Contrapoints is working class
Yes.
The entire US Senate is working class
OK, obviously you have no idea how this works. They are part of the superstructure and get paid from surplus in bribes donations to do corporate bidding. Shit, not even public school teachers are technically working class because of being government employees who don't produce a commodity sold for a profit by a capitalist (although the form of their work makes them de facto in the same sort of position), but you picked the least-working-class people in the entire government.
NEETs who live off the income of their dad who owns a guitar repair store and shit post about Jews all day are working class
NEETs who live off someone else's income are simultaneously reserve army of labor and petite bourgeois, as are NEET welfare recipients.
Modern artists who sell a drop of red paint on a giant white canvass for 100000 dollars are working class
Sure, I guess?
Carl Benjamin is working class
He's running to be an MP, so not for long.
Tao Lin is working class
who
Lawyers are working class
Absofuckinglutely not. Lawyers' work is all about making the legal system inscrutable so everyone needs them to do anything. They are worse than petite bourgeois or landlords. They are parasites on everybody.
Count Dankula is working class
who
That guy who drank his own cum to see if vegans taste better are working class
who
Jordan Peterson is working class
I think? Someone saying stupid shit doesn't make them not working class.

Kayden Cooper
Kayden Cooper

It was literally to make fun of the faggot itt who can't comprehend why you should be allowed to call someone who makes thousands of dollars a day for doing an extremely low amount of work petite bourg despite then not technically owning private property but behaving like and living like a petite bourg i wasn't actually saying any of those people are working class

Bentley Butler
Bentley Butler

Well I didn't see that context my dude. Also hopefully the explanations help clarify the problem.

Eli Sanchez
Eli Sanchez

I really hate how "makes" and "earns" is used when talking about what someone receives, it reifies the legitimacy of it.
contrapoints
working class
< Best Guess: $14K - $80K
<(How?)
<Earnings per month*

Blake Taylor
Blake Taylor

I really hate how "makes" and "earns" is used when talking about what someone receives, it reifies the legitimacy of it.
Elaborate

Christopher Sullivan
Christopher Sullivan

It implies that someone actually created respectively deserves what he has, it is a specific instance of the just world fallacy.

Asher Bell
Asher Bell

How much you get paid has nothing to do with what class you belong to. Read Marx you fucking pseud.

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Levi White
Levi White

I#m sure those with that money don't have it invest. Guess a small business owner is worker too since he provides labour as a manager.

Charles Butler
Charles Butler

I#m sure those with that money don't have it invest.
So, what, if a waitress buys some stock she's no longer working class?
Guess a small business owner is worker too since he provides labour as a manager.
You can earn any amount of money without investing it or getting it from surplus (although it's less likely the higher you go). No matter how much actual work a business owner does, they still exploit labor which makes them a capitalist. Class isn't a question of quantitative difference in earnings. It's a question of qualitative difference re: the relations of production.

Benjamin Lee
Benjamin Lee

But that's the point. If you make enough money to essentially function in society as a petit bourg do you still get to call yourself working class because technically you don't own any means and aren t exploiting the labor power of others? Thats one of the things about late capitalism (for lack of a better terms) that's kind of confusing, people now can technically not be a bourg but also not be a prole or a lumpen despite being that if you go by the strictest interpretation of Marx and Engels definitions

Dylan Cook
Dylan Cook

Maybe labour aristocracy is acbetter word, but if someone gets like 50k per month they will fairly quickly have a large amount of money coming in as capital gains.

Daniel Phillips
Daniel Phillips

If you were outside the class system, e.g. working at a co-op, where your labor wasn't exploited then you would be neither prole our brougeois. Someone like Contrapoints who gets a portion taken by Patreon, Youtube, etc. and has to follow the rules of their platforms is working class, even when earning enough money to live comfortably. Shit, a fucking rock star is usually a worker; do you know how much money record companies take?

Only if you invest in something. You can just put your money in a bank account and let it sit, or go out and buy stuff with that money.

Eli Torres
Eli Torres

falling for obvious b8
Never change Zig Forums

William Wood
William Wood

If you were outside the class system, e.g. working at a co-op, where your labor wasn't exploited then you would be neither prole our brougeois. Someone like Contrapoints who gets a portion taken by Patreon, Youtube, etc. and has to follow the rules of their platforms is working class, even when earning enough money to live comfortably. Shit, a fucking rock star is usually a worker; do you know how much money record companies take?

Are you really going to tell me with a straight face that because a rockstar gets a couple million stolen the majority of them still don't have a fat higher standard of living then the majority of the population?

John Lopez
John Lopez

Yeah, this is actually good idea.

Angel Howard
Angel Howard

Actually, attacking minorities is the same thing as attacking fascists and both are equivalent to class struggle

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Xavier Diaz
Xavier Diaz

Shit idea

Gavin Barnes
Gavin Barnes

You do realize that every group stole its land from another group at some point, either in history or pre-history? Whites aren't the only group that moved around and settled.

Melanesians used to live pretty much everywhere, so if you took things to their logic extreme you'd need to evict nearly all of the world's population to give it to them.

Justin Martin
Justin Martin

Can an user redpill me on how race conflict is idpol but class conflict isn't? After all, where you stand economically is part of your "identity".

Charles Rodriguez
Charles Rodriguez

BASH THE FASH

Ryan Turner
Ryan Turner

If you end up doing that, please add a section on the shitposting wiki so they're in an accessible place to look up.
leftypol.fandom.com/wiki/Idpol

Mason Rogers
Mason Rogers

i know its a bait but peterson is making like 50k+ USD a month from patreon AT LEAST. and hes a tenured college professor on top of that. Which means hes likely making 750+ a year before taxes. This is equivalent to a mid level manager at an investment bank on wall street, so hes definitely not working class

Carson Perry
Carson Perry

Admittedly I was fucking with you the other night and I kinda got carried away with it, so I'm sorry about that.
If anyone else feels like joining in on this, I'm writing a few things up. They should be:
Short, less than five minutes to express. Enough that you could reasonably ask for some uninterrupted time to get the whole idea out.
Universal, explain how class affects all identity interactions in general, that the amount of resources you have to deal with your problems is going to directly affect how much oppression you're going to receive
Accepting, letting people know that we still understand, accept, and agree with the idea that identity-driven violence and oppression is real and actually hurts people, but then always bring it back to the previous point, that class mediates and dictates how these ideas are even capable of manifesting at all.

I strongly suspect that most people who get drawn into this sort of thing do have genuine concerns that we can not afford to address, and when the wrecker radlibs are telling them that they'll "protect" the others of different identities, it becomes very easy for them to target us, single us out as being "not for them", and then get us expelled for not being liberals. What we need to do is to show people of various identities that class warfare theory can always do one better by telling them how it'll actually protect them instead of just hoping to make all the racists go away.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher

leftypol has wiki? Nice

Jaxon Turner
Jaxon Turner

Tranny: I'm a transdimensional dragon of the 4th quadrant.
Normal people: Ha ha holy shit, fucking idpol.
Zig Forums: Genders are idpol, everyone can become anything.
Normal people: Oh okay.

Jonathan Price
Jonathan Price

The bourgeois conception of identity is inherently reactionary and undialectical.

Liam Taylor
Liam Taylor

And what about so called "hate speech laws"?

And what about the definition of racism? Do we agree with that new "privilege+power " or some shit definition? Can anybody be racist against whites?

Aaron Murphy
Aaron Murphy

Economism is vulgar Marxism

Connor Edwards
Connor Edwards

This IDpol debate is tiresome and 80% of the time the person railing against IDpol just wants to be racist or sexist without being called out or is a nazbol/egoist or other assorted garbage.

Jaxson Ross
Jaxson Ross

T. Didn’t read op>>2887525

Ryan Watson
Ryan Watson

I wasn't referring specifically to OP. The thing is that these rabid idpollers don't exist and when they do, what the fuck are you worried about? You're more left wing than them, you're a fucking marxist, you have the moral high ground.

Kayden Evans
Kayden Evans

He's absolutely right. I'm tired of this board being incredibly overstuffed with people going into excessive detail about how "idpol isn't important" literally for hours and hours just so that they can say that "feminism is only for wreckers!" There's no excuse for us to have a gender crit cyclic thread when the main line of the board is specifically that such a thing isn't important.

Sebastian Wood
Sebastian Wood

stop promoting your shit site

Benjamin Nelson
Benjamin Nelson

rabid idpollers don't exist
lol

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Dominic Torres
Dominic Torres

you don't say

Daniel Kelly
Daniel Kelly

sage

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Isaac Russell
Isaac Russell

No it isnt. Class is a material existential property, culture and concepts of race and so on are socially constructed. You can be a Mexican women who speaks no English working on the same cleaning crew as a white guy from new England and have the same experience (alienation, wage theft, long hours) for this reason. It's why poor people are usually less concerned with political correctness than petite bourg people even if they're black or whatever, Because they grow up especially now more than ever in the same class conditions

Ethan Sanders
Ethan Sanders

T. Someone who has never been in a fight in their life

Jeremiah Nguyen
Jeremiah Nguyen

Yeah but, that's not really a worry because there's a legit argument as to why that's bullshit and I saw loads of black, trans and indigenous people calling it out saying it was using left-rhetoric as an excuse to be a wrecker.

Xavier Butler
Xavier Butler

"anti-idpol" is economic reductionism

Jeremiah Walker
Jeremiah Walker

Economic reductionism is literally what dialectical materialism is you stupid reddit fag

Jayden Harris
Jayden Harris

as if you anti-idpol dickheads dont get coopted by capital whenever it promises white dudes better job conditions as long as they let them exploit women and non-whites as much as they please and police workers behaviour so they are usefull drones to capital. that was the whole fucking idea behind fordism and to this day there is plenty of shitty corporate controled unions

Asher Clark
Asher Clark

No it isn't.
Read Marx.

Chase Campbell
Chase Campbell

acting as if there hasnt been a shitload of development in marxism that reexamines relationship between base and superstructure and the role of ideology
its not like yours is the only legitimate branch of marxism user

Isaac Torres
Isaac Torres

anti idpollers are the same people who helped fuck over unions

Joshua Sanchez
Joshua Sanchez

Go back to reddit

Gabriel Brown
Gabriel Brown

Go back to /pol/

Brody Reyes
Brody Reyes

Yeah, but the base is generally dominant
I agree that pure economism is bullshit, but so is the intersectional identity reductionism

Oliver Long
Oliver Long

kill yourself retard

Ian Kelly
Ian Kelly

The difference is that a black woman is black and doesn't change color by you being nice to her. To think that being a worker is like that is to accept class society as permanent, even who got which position within it, and then the solution to people feeling down is seen as the same in either case: Go around smiling at people, tip your hat at everybody and say m'lady, m'worker, m'n-word and so on.

Being in this or that class isn't an inherent quality of a person with issues of bad stereotypes arising due to misunderstandings which then could be fixed by mere words and pop culture made by the right (="properly educated") people. Being in a class is being part of a social relation. More symbolic respect for the working class isn't the solution, just like it wasn't the solution to slavery. You don't want more respect from the slave owners, you don't want slave owners to exist. You don't want respect from your boss or landlord, you don't want them to exist. (Which doesn't mean that we fap to the thought of killing them, we want them to become productive members of society if that's possible.)

Carson Jones
Carson Jones

And what about the definition of racism?
It's bourgeois idealism that makes bombing brown people a war crime when a white male does it and progressive leadership when a brown woman does it.
Do we agree with that new "privilege+power " or some shit definition?
That's self-serving liberal pap. Racism is the belief in the factuality of racial ideology and/or the validity of racial "science." "Prejudice + power" is bourgeois sleight of hand to dissociate the effects of the system and instead make those effects the result of players within the system—e.g "we need more female CEOs," &c.
Can anybody be racist against whites?
Anybody that thinks that "whites" are anything more than an arbitrary generalization and make assume characteristics based on some bullshit inherent "whiteness."

Zachary Cox
Zachary Cox

Cry more

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Jaxson Cox
Jaxson Cox

Race is a social construct just like class. Neither are necessary or essential characteristics, but both result from thr social, cultural, and economic modes of society.
Neither is ontologically prior to the other, but pretending like race doesn't exist or is an invalid social group is reactionary and ignores social reality. Race isn't reducible to class, and class isn't reducible to race. Neither are based on biology or an essence. Racial categorization, especially nationalist ones, existed prior to and apart from capitalist class stratification, and overturning the capitalist mode of production will not automatically solve racism any more than overturning feudalism automatically overturned the subjugation of women for involuntary free labor toward social reproduction.

Noah Ross
Noah Ross

How do I change my race?

Daniel Gomez
Daniel Gomez

The same way you change your class or any other socially constructed identity relation. You must be recognized as such in your social relations. This is, for instance, how a black man can "pass" as an Indian man and receive the associated privilege that comes along with that in the US for decades, or how a white woman can become president of an NAACP chapter. The social construction of these categories exhaustively define what they are. No one is checking chromosomes, haplogroups, or tax returns to verify your social group, because those are largely irrelevant to what gender, race, and social class actually are.

Jaxson Adams
Jaxson Adams

origines of race : pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-02-09.htm
Race was based on the class relation of slave society, and hence class is prior to race, just not capitalist class.

The same way you change your class

the way you change your class is by changing your relation the means of production, which is not as easy as: >how a black man can "pass" as an Indian man and receive the associated privilege

Race indentity in America today is a based on a political project that is in part driven by negating class consciousness, via a fight for realtively minor economic privileges and social status and there still are hard material interests of labour exploitation of prisoners whose social relation could be seen as a echo of slavery.

The subtext of lumping class and race etc in the same category is idealist. The material reality is that racism will not go away as long as class society exists. Because class is not a "social group", it's an abstract economic relation, a mechanical component in a system. The class relation between a worker and capitalist is more alike to a gear in a clockwork.

Xavier King
Xavier King

Yeah, but we haven't problems with imdigenous, black or trans people. We problem with all those identity obsessed woke scolds who find way to talk about some petty bullshit (like "mansplaining") in every situation.

Jayden Gray
Jayden Gray

Pic related.
This is the correct answer.

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Levi Johnson
Levi Johnson

Race is a social construct just like class
Oh boy here we go.
but pretending like race doesn't exist or is an invalid social group is reactionary
It's reactionary to pretend like race exists. Race is anti-materialist, anti-scientific, and undialectical. It has no objective existence, is arbitrarily defined, and stands in direct opposition to the fact of whatever idiot identity you cling to being a process rather than a static, sterile manifestation.
Racial categorization, especially nationalist ones, existed prior to and apart from capitalist class stratification
No, they really didn't.
overturning the capitalist mode of production will not automatically solve racism
No one said it would you stupid fuck.

Kill yourself, Hitlerite dogshit.

Jack Perez
Jack Perez

Good.
Now fuck off to Reddit.

Lincoln Watson
Lincoln Watson

sloppy analysis of colonialism is the new wave

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Grayson Smith
Grayson Smith

thats for cancer containment

Eli Watson
Eli Watson

Replying to all of my posts definitely discourages me from posting more.

Race is real in the same sense that money is real. As a categorization, it's been used for apartheid. It has no biological basis, but to pretend race as a catgorization is not a shared social reality is to engage in historical negation.
That isn't very surprising, coming from a stupid Nazi though. But suuure the people who are arguing against your whitewashing are the REAL fascists

Charles Hall
Charles Hall

Race is real in the same sense that money is real.

The material reality of money is that there are giant institutions devoted to it, from the financial sector, to Us military overthrowing entire countries that move away from Dollar-hegemony. There is nothing even remotely comparable for race, even during the days of the slave-trade, this was still subordinated to money

It has no biological basis, but to pretend race as a catgorization is not a shared social reality is to engage in historical negation.

Lets not forget, that by by recognizing a race-identity you are giving mixed-race people a split identity, that is a form of negation. In addition there are theoretical problems, when you look at current privilege-gaps that arise from historic context like collonialism. Here for example a white lumpen-prole has no privileges over a rich black businessman, if you attempt to use race-categorizations for this you will over-generalize and negate a lot of people that way. Even the historic analysis of colonialism, is not possible to do if you use race-categories as reference frame. Some 18century Scottish potato farmer that got starved to death cannot in anyway be seen as a UK-empire colonizer.

if you want to look at the social reality of race that exists beyond economics, you have to start looking at the xeno-phobia to xeno-philia spectrum. Liberal diversity attempts to negate the xeno-phobic end of the spectrum which has the effect of fuelling counter reaction of race-realism.
Obviously there is economic reality to this as well, the cross product of income inequality and future prospects for economic success, determine how far both ends of the spectrum move appart from each other. You currently have such bad economic factors that both ends of this spectrum have split off into new categories of ethno-centrism and xeno-centrism.

The point is to negate race as a categorization in the future, because it has no biological basis. We don't want to equalize between particular subjects, where differences between people are reified into identities, because the horizon of this is equal pandering in commercialism, we want to elevate everybody to become universal subject.

There is nothing liberatiing in particularism, it's the return to the unconsciousness of an evolutionary replicator.

Chase Price
Chase Price

A year ago we didn't even need a cancer containment because people largely understood and agreed with the idea that identity politics and all these stupid cultural analysis things were bundled up in class warfare as a generally bigger, more important and overarching aspect of society. Now we're getting multiple threads on it with hundreds of replies each in under a month.

Jeremiah Kelly
Jeremiah Kelly

that was when the BO was still purging and leftpol was still a thing. Now all thats left on leftpol are the nazbols and many have come back here

Austin Young
Austin Young

This
A year ago we didn't even need a cancer containment because people largely understood and agreed with the idea that identity politics and all these stupid cultural analysis things were bundled up in class warfare as a generally bigger, more important and overarching aspect of society.
BULLLLLLLLSSSHHHHIIIIIIIIITTTTTT!!!!! This board has always been filled to the brim with class reductionist whitetarians that want to ignore the historical material legacy of chattel slavery, jim crow and even shit still happening like the war on drugs. Like racism ended with the civil rights movement like some kind of red painted republicans.

Henry Phillips
Henry Phillips

Class reductionism is a good thing. Denying the existence of racism isn't. Racism exists as a result of both historical and present class relations.

Sebastian Williams
Sebastian Williams

this
class reductionist whitetarians that want to ignore the historical material legacy of chattel slavery, jim crow and even shit still happening like the war on drugs. Like racism ended with the civil rights movement like some kind of red painted republicans.
t. didnt read OP
specifically states being against racism, but also points out that idpol is more vulnerable to corporate co-opting ("woke" corporations), contradicts historical materialism, and introduces subjectivism into epistemology, etc.

What OP didnt mention but should have is that cointel/alphabet soup the powers that be actually promoted alot of early "new left" stuff as a way to destroy economic leftism and stop socialism by focusing on only social issues.

Logan Cruz
Logan Cruz

What are you talking about? This place has been beating that dead horse since forever.

Brayden Smith
Brayden Smith

t. didnt read OP
I did but wasn't responding to OP. Regardless you and all of Zig Forumss critique of IDPOL!!! is a Tumbrina strawman of anti racists, anti-sexists etc, that would be at home at /pol/.

Michael Cruz
Michael Cruz

Class reductionism is a good thing. Denying the existence of racism isn't.
That what class reductionism is, it ignore any critique of the superstructure that hurts white people's feelings.

Christian Gonzalez
Christian Gonzalez

class isn't an identity, it's a material reality. no one identifies as worker or bourgeoisie, it's our relation to the means of production.

Joseph Martin
Joseph Martin

add this to your collection

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Cooper Robinson
Cooper Robinson

Unironically using "whitetarians"

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Carson Cook
Carson Cook

Class struggle is the primary struggle of life. The reason why the average black person’s life is shit is because of high costs of rent and healthcare combined with a shit wage. Not because someone called him a nigger online or their aren’t enough black drag queens.

Kayden Brown
Kayden Brown

idpol is anti-materialist and has a shit ton of problems. One being that it's tends to fall prey to bourgeois pandering. watching black panther and captain marvel, and not eating an Church's Chicken suddenly become essential praxis.
truth is, idpol hides the fact that proles have absolutely no power, and it is only when corporations align with societies desires (gay rights, women rights, etc) that causes shit to actually change. societal progress shouldn't depend on profitability. that's why America will have the highest incarceration rate for ever while woke americans will be buying rainbow-themed merchandise and going to corporate sponsored pride parades.
anti-idpol doesn't mean anti-anti-bigotry. non-retards are against all types of oppression, but their non-brainletism makes them see that economic means are almost always either at the root of the problem of the reproduction of bigotry, and/or economic change is the most effective route to emancipate an oppressed group. making this about class IS important, specifically that oppressed people are part of the *working* class. it is through worker collectives only that these groups can gain political and economic power against the bourgeoise. (this doesn't mean making woker collectives about oppressed people's rights, mind you)
idpolers back to reddit please.

Andrew Harris
Andrew Harris

That’s (unironically) not an argument. Try responding to some of the points in OP instead of accusing us of being crypto fash

Lucas Brooks
Lucas Brooks

chuds
Go back to /r/chapotraphouse faggot

David Jenkins
David Jenkins

stfu, Black red guard and go back to twitter

Juan Ramirez
Juan Ramirez

This board has always been filled to the brim with class reductionist whitetarians that want to ignore the historical material legacy of chattel slavery, jim crow and even shit still happening like the war on drugs. Like racism ended with the civil rights movement like some kind of red painted republicans.

Litterally who does that? Who denies here that racism exists today?
Stop strawmaning us, retard.

Dylan Ward
Dylan Ward

I'm not pro-idpol, but I'm not anti-idpol either. I'm not trying to do the BOTH SIDES meme, but both radlib SJWs and the anti-idpol left both have horrible politics. On the pro-idpol side people are more obsessed with language policing and making sure there are more POC LGBT+ CEOs than actually alleviating oppression, while on the anti-idpol side people don't acknowledge how people from these marginalized groups legitimately face more avenues of oppression than whites, or males or cishets. The answer is socialist intersectionality, BLM, #MeToo, and the trans movement are important because they affect the working class predominantly, but it's also obvious that every prole faces oppression, and the oppression Olympics and language policing are dumb as fuck.

James Sanders
James Sanders

and the trans
Transgenderism is more of a subculture than of an oppressed group at this point.

William Cox
William Cox

Those aren't mutually exclusive

Charles Walker
Charles Walker

Idpol is important and needed but not when it starts to come before class struggle.

Isn't this the consensus? Seems pretty damn reasonable.

Landon Morris
Landon Morris

Virgin is an identity and we are oppressed group and want equality of sex/love!

Colton Gomez
Colton Gomez

This is the common sense position, but too many people are obsessed with their in group bullshit to see it.

Leo Torres
Leo Torres

the problem with intersectionality is that it's a terrible political programme. the demand to fight for extension of equal liberal rights to all marginalised groups (however that is defined) firstly aligns any organisation towards supporting liberal goals (often getting a bunch of liberal members as a result) and "betterment" of state power instead of its replacement. Secondly it can work against getting a maximally large support base: a communist movement based solely on worker's rights unites both the racialised homophobe worker as well as the racist homosexual worker. An intersectional programme cannot accept the existence of bigots in its ranks - it seems to be operating on a logic of good oppressed guys vs evil oppressor guys, even though there is absolutely no indication that individuals of oppressed groups have any more inherent solidarity with other oppressed groups. On the other hand letting bigots into leadership positions where they can abuse power based on their prejudice is obviously also bad.
Intersectionality should utilised as it was conceived: as a tool of analysis. Bigotry is very closely tied to class: nobody but the most obsessed and ideologically purist /pol/yp cares about your stereotypical middle class black protestant pastor. Women have extra needs as workers, since pregnancy and periods place extra costs on them - not to mention the role of unpaid domestic labour in maintaining society. And so on.

Henry Lee
Henry Lee

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Daniel Cruz
Daniel Cruz

Black culture exists
Black people face a unique avenue of oppression.
This is common fucking sense

Parker Cooper
Parker Cooper

Black culture is a subculture

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Jason Green
Jason Green

Subgroup = small portion of overall society
Black people are 15% of US Population, 3% in UK, 8% in France, 2% in Germany
Black people have a unique culture
Black culture is a subculture
Fuck off with your shit memes and at least attempt to add something coherent to the discussion

Colton James
Colton James

Black people face a unique avenue of oppression.
bruh its 3 am just turn the music down bruh