A scam artist is technically not exploiting in the marxist sense either, they are still anti-social and abusing others, you with liberal "muh free choice" can go and kill yourself.
ebin :DDDDDDDDDDD
Is legalisation of prostitution socialist?
Blake Ross
Kevin Martin
To anybody confused by this, the quote is from Robot Butler. paulcockshott.wordpress.com
Yeah, it makes me extremely suspicious when the language of self-declared experts on a topic is more fuzzy than how non-exerts talk about it. What a camgirl does is far less risky than being a prostitute out in the streets, which is why it makes sense to use the word camgirl instead of putting very different activities into the more nebulous category sex worker – which even includes managers of prostitutes!
Kat Banyard: "Why is a pimp helping to shape Amnesty’s sex trade policy?"
theguardian.com
Lucas Gomez
The black panthers lost. You're going to change how the government functions by meeting people's needs directly through a parallel economy, so that example doesn't apply here.
That was replying specifically to a point about how reform in general is a waste of time. Nobody has to adhere to the standard that each thing they say has to address every point other people make. You're being an obtuse fuckstain. As for specific people's needs, not everybody is needy for food and clothing, not everybody is homeless so by your logic it would follow we shouldn't help them either.
Oliver Rogers
So did socdems. The differences is that if the Panthers and the groups they were coaliitioned with at the time had won the world would look very different whereas when reformists win things stay the same and then they lose anyway and all of their reforms are obliterated. It's often a losing battle either way the difference is that if one does succeed it actually has the power to legitimately build a new society where the other loses even if it wins
Sure, but far more are more needy more of the time for those things than for having their easy job they choose to do because it makes then 10 times the amount of money for 1/10th the time and energy as actually working somewhere like a fast food restaraunts or some gig economy nightmare like being an uber driver
Andrew King
I'm not a socdem. My whole point is you can include reforms as part of a more radical platform so comparing that argument directly to something that failed (while also strawmanning my argument as something that failed) isn't addressing what I'm saying. You're setting up a false dichotomy.
There's no reforms to be made for camwhores. That's got nothing to do with the argument here. Camwhoring is legal, and not prostitution in the legal sense. Legalizing or decriminalizing prostitution is for the people who are pushed into that line of work out of desperation, to allow them to get legal protections, recourse against abuses by employers, the possibility of organizing as a co-op, of forming unions, etc. Camwhores would be unaffected by legalized prostitution, unless lifting the taboo made camwhoring less competitive.
David Hernandez
You do realise that the total number of Labour Vouchers that exist in an economy is equal to the total number of Labour hours that exists in the economy as a representation of ones entitlement to the Social Product as a whole correct? This makes unproductive Labour part of a political question because it's harder to allocate for. In lower stage Communism, all unproductive labour would be required to be socially necessary, and therefore be renumerated according to whether a political body believes it should be. They could very well demand that sex work be reimbursed with Labour Vouchers but do they take precedence over the thousands of other, more essential roles? Who would accede to this framework? At least with other Unproductive Socially Necessary roles like Teaching, there is a long process of accreditation & training, whereas with Sex Work it seems as though it's an afterthought. Why would we require Sex Workers outside of specialized fields if Society is transformed to such a point that the coercion of wage labour no longer exists? Do we have quotas for Sex Workers in the same way that we have quotas for Teachers? Who are the people who get to perform Sex work and why are they entitled to the social product in a scenario of abundance over say, lowering the workweek further to increase employment in productive sectors and allowing everyone to benefit, or allowing those who cannot work more of the Social product? Again, these are all political questions, this is my point. I noted in my post that I'm not theoretically opposed to Sex Work on some kind of moral grounds, please don't imply that I am.
Agreed. Where did I state otherwise?
This shall increasingly be the case yes, although the political questions regarding the unequal development of the third world & the climate come into play here. I don't think anyone wants barracks communism but if I am expected to receive less from the productivity gains of society so that we can uplift those who aren't as fortunate as I then I'm perfectly fine with this and I say this as a member of the working class who lived well below the poverty line for most of my adult life. This, I'll admit, is where my ethical considerations come in. For me it's about priorities.
We're in agreement here. Under Lower Stage Communism there is actually nothing that prevents 2 or more individuals coming to some kind of Voluntary arrangement to exchange gifts or services with each other, and this free association of labour is a positive development. Where it gets messy however though, is that Labour Vouchers do not function as money; they cannot be circulated or exchanged, and to allow them to do so within this manner would restablish the law of value as it exists under Capitalism. You could redeem your labour vouchers for part of the Social Product and then gift it to someone in exchange for something else, but you cannot transfer or create labour vouchers for that individual yourself. I would hope you had read CotGP.
CONT.
Gabriel Barnes
As I stated earlier, it's a political question. Is taking pictures of yourself and uploading them to the internet something that is worth allocating Social Product towards? My entire argument was about the fact that in the abscence of Property Rights, this strata of "Sex Workers" would no longer wish to perform this task as work because a Socialist Society doesn't provide them with Intellectual Property rights to charge rents for things with almost 0 SNLT and near infinite reproductive potential. It seems as if you are too used to arguing with SWERFs. This dangerously approaches mudpie territory.
Again, I'm not opposed to this in theory, but it depends on how we arrange distributive mechanisms. An accredited sex worker would be very similar to a masseuse insofar as they would likely spend a long time going through some kind of training, for which they would be renumerated, and then upon completion, recieve the same amount of Labour Vouchers as anyone else for their work. This is qualitatively different from the vast majority of the kinds of sex work that exist under Capitalism today. With regards to the Arts, I suggest you look into how film funding already works in places like Canada and how the USSR funded the arts. There is a very simple grant system that any organization could apply for the necessary equipment for, but again, this is a political question. There are alternative models such as the ability for limited exchange to work in the same way that allocation fo labour vouchers are taxed for universal public services, which functions similarly to patreon, but again, this comes with similar problems insofar as you would need safeguards to prevent accumulation and other capitalist phenomenon. For example, you can very easily see how 2 individual producers could be allocated at incredibly different rates for their work simply because one is more popular than another; a potential solution to this would be to collectively pool the allocated vouchers in order to provide all of the producers with Labour Vouchers in accordance with their work. However more problems remain, how do we account for how much Labour they have actually performed? Can you measure Art by SNLT? Who decides who is "allowed" to be an Artist without any kind of accreditation system or parallel mechanisms? It seems as though ones choice to be an Artist would have to be out of Leisure time for the vast majority of people, but again, ultimately this is all political.
Evan Walker
Lmao
All that aside why not fight for, oh I don't know, a jobs guarantee, rather than transferring the current legalization of pot model onto prostitution?
Gavin Jenkins
no, it's degenerate and self-serving, unless the whores are willing to let themselves be fucked for free and don't have the capacity of refusing any and all kinds of customers that ever request their services.
Hunter Moore
found the thot