MARK FISHER AND ANTI IDPOL LEFT BTFO BY ANARKIDDIE

Connor Watson
Connor Watson

youtube.com/watch?v=C-tkwB6NPTc

tldr
muh russell brand isnt working class this is actually true
muh mark fisher is such a whiteboi haha
*mark fisher calls idpol bourgeois* OH COMEON, mark how can you call them bourgeois!

thats basically it. I'm seriously sick of these pro idpol leftists whenever someone makes a valid critique of idpol and intersectionality and the toxic witchhunt atmosphere on the left, they simply laugh it off and say it doesn't exist.

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Other urls found in this thread:

truthdig.com/articles/bankruptcy-american-left/
democrats.org
youtube.com/watch?v=mEHVNrqIkrU
iww.org/history/library/iww/responsetoRILU/4
uhurusolidarity.org/
socialistrevolution.org/should-socialists-be-preparing-for-revolution
youtube.com/watch?v=VdrvQ-EF1M4

Jonathan Brown
Jonathan Brown

anti-idpol
You mean class reductionism, which is cancer

Jayden Carter
Jayden Carter

I dunno. A played-out debate between Mark Fisher's zombie corpse complaining about vampire tweets and some gamer dweeb defending the vampire tweets makes my eyes roll into the back of my head as the footsteps of the armies of the third-world proletariat come storming in to slaughter everyone

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Levi Thompson
Levi Thompson

youtuber drama
who gives a shit lol

Michael Watson
Michael Watson

toxic toxic toxic toxic
This word is a meaningless buzzword change my mind
Off topic sage

Michael Smith
Michael Smith

Unironically hating on Fisher
And I thought fucking Thought Slime was cancerous.
Most videos are about transgenderism
One is about witchcraft
Now it makes sense
You mean class reductionism, which is cancer
Kys

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Ethan Davis
Ethan Davis

/thread

Asher Cox
Asher Cox

i guess the cia succeeded in using idpol as a weapon

Jack Rivera
Jack Rivera

People complain about class reductionism when the real problem is identity reductionism

Levi Brown
Levi Brown

lmao the Anglo left strikes again

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Josiah King
Josiah King

Click vid
Ah, this idiot. Likes to be an internet tough guy on twitter and did an interview video with Contrapoints just when Contra started to blow up. Spent a fair bit of the video pushing anti-gamergate lines at Contra.

Xavier Howard
Xavier Howard

Contrapoints is exactly what Fisher talks about in . Contra makes over 10k every month on patreon for a relatively low amount of labour, has a fan base that goes in the tens of thousands that all suck up to her, so she's generally an extremely privileged person, at least privileged enough to deal with some possible discrimination she might face as a transsexual when she goes grocery shopping or something.

William Cruz
William Cruz

I like Contrapoints. I found her videos interesting and seems to push past a lot of that stuff. Like one of her "characters" is a satire of those people, the radfem or whatever.

Don't get me wrong, though. I think it is basically true that there are a lot of "creative class" people out there and there's not enough jobs in academia (which has been totally fucked by capitalism by the way) to absorb them all, so they resort to this cultural criticism for Patreon bucks instead, which seems like a better deal than slaving away for a bloated and effectively for-profit university administration anyways. But blaming "them" for the problems of the left is … well that's just myopic. Communism was more or less defeated worldwide, the labor unions in the core imperialist countries absolutely crushed (our organizing base, by the way), and a whole program of Marxist political education systematically binned and left to people like fucking Ismail to gather the surviving notes like monks in a cave. What the hell are we supposed to do? Wide swathes of the left lost economic arguments, ceding the ground to right-wing propaganda for not just a generation but a multi-generational era. Do not pass go. Do not collect 1917 dollars.

Blaming wokescolds is like blaming people who never even had a chance in the first place. Let's move past it and try to engage in actual political education instead of stewing in recrimination, going nowhere as the planet starts to boil us alive.

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Parker Martinez
Parker Martinez

the problem is if the woke people win, the lefts mission will fundamentally be transformed from a radical transformation of society to simply corporate neoliberal capitalism with more diversity and tolerance, and convince a whole generation of young white males that socialism is when purple hair beasts in mumus want to cut their balls off

Thomas Edwards
Thomas Edwards

Hey fellow leftists. You might not realize this, but either we have to be racist, sexist homophobes or the capitalists win. Hehe
There's literally no possibility to engage in antiracism, antimperialism, feminism, or gay liberation without being a full on neoliberal capitalist.
I'm not from /pol/ btw

Ethan Peterson
Ethan Peterson

Hello fellow leftist.

We have to either validate the most base, narcissistic, tribalist attitudes of humans who happen to not be white, or the nasty brocialists win.
I'm not from reddit btw

Tyler Ortiz
Tyler Ortiz

Let's zoom out for a second. It makes perfect sense that middle- and upper-class young people with privileged upbringings and exposure to the ideologically-laden schooling of liberal arts colleges have created the "social justice warrior" stereotype. But I don't see why people treat this like a problem among the left when it isn't among the left at all; they're just liberals.

Likewise, if you're a white professional spending 40 hours a week around other "global professionals" brain-drained from the imperial periphery, and have marching orders from the Man to get along with them, what do you expect will happen? Even if it's the first time in the big city, 'cuz you grew up in segregated white suburbia, you want that fat white paycheck and desk job? You better learn liberal multicultural philosophy, quick. It serves productive and reproductive purposes here.

THEREFORE: There's no reason to buy into the right's conflation of socialism and liberalism here, and no need to take responsibility for these liberals. If they want to learn something about actual social justice, then let's teach them Marxism, but other than that why even have this conversation?

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Oliver Wood
Oliver Wood

because basically all of the internet left outside leftypol and a few cancer FBIs has bought the idpol pill. Seriously if you took a poll on lefttube, twitter, etc. 95%+ of them would be pro idpol/intersectionality.

Jack Clark
Jack Clark

What do you mean by pro idpol? Like anti-racist? What would the left be if it wasn't? The phrase social justice is like 100+ years old and was used enthusiastically by socialists since forever.
convince a whole generation of young white males that socialism is when purple hair beasts in mumus want to cut their balls off
Why should anyone give a fuck what a bunch of sniveling Nazi nerds on the internet think or say? The set of discursive practices this line represents is a degenerated and reactionary one marked by moral and intellectual bankruptcy; it should be ridiculed and forgotten not seriously considered.

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Ayden Sanchez
Ayden Sanchez

pro idpol
= tribalism is bad when wypepo do it, but good when everyone else does it, p.s. marx was a white male racist sexist and socialism is a colonizer ideology. pps. send all da wyte muricans back to europe kthxbai
Why should anyone give a fuck what a bunch of sniveling Nazi nerds on the internet think or say?
yeap lets just write of the 70% of america thats white, im sure the math really adds up there for literally any political project with a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding

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Mason Richardson
Mason Richardson

if the woke people win
The "woke people" never "win," it's endless spectacle. To hell with it, legalize drugs incest bestiality and so on, just so we can move past this nonsense and focus on the real issues.

Josiah Bailey
Josiah Bailey

as the footsteps of the armies of the third-world proletariat come storming in to slaughter everyone
Fight cringe with cringe

Thomas Murphy
Thomas Murphy

The Bankruptcy of the American Left (Chris Hedges vs IDPOL)
truthdig.com/articles/bankruptcy-american-left/

Blake Mitchell
Blake Mitchell

tribalism is bad when wypepo do it
It's bad in general
but good when everyone else does it
Give me a single example of someone praising non-white ethnic tribalism. Islamism is religious in nature and is vilified. Zionism is only ever opposed by the left, your orange savior is a huge Zionist himself. Asian nationalism is a joke. Even stuff like BLM, which was a simple movement against police brutality against blacks was received very poorly.

Carson Bennett
Carson Bennett

yeap lets just write of the 70% of america thats white, im sure the math really adds up there for literally any political project with a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding
The term "idpol" is thrown around a lot, but there may be no nice and tidy term for what I think you're trying to describe: the way that certain parts of the so-called "left" have been gulled into abandoning class analysis for the signifiers of identity politics, because it may be that thinking about it in the ways that view it as a single bad "thing" isn't factually accurate and achieves nothing practically for the left.

I mean it's not like that's ever a concern of the right when it crafts and popularizes a term like "social justice warrior," it's a bogeyman that works among those who use it because it denigrates and attacks the left for an audience with bourgeois values that drools at certain key words. Absolutely everything that group produces in terms of rhetoric should be opposed, discarded or subject to the keenest edge of critique to determine the actual nature behind its spread as a term among the right, which they obviously have no interest in understanding because it would likely undermine their use of it.
yeap lets just write of the 70% of america thats white, im sure the math really adds up there for literally any political project with a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding
Calling people "social justice warriors" or "vampires" or whatever from the left to attack the concealment of class in discussion is IMO a limp attempt to replace material analysis of trends on the left with a farcically iconoclastic opposition stance that suggests the person using it hopes to capture support from the most pavlovian corners of the far right. It's understandable how someone might make the mistake before learning better but in the end it's self-defeating and a little pathetic. If you insist that you must go down this road, however, I cannot stop you, but I can point you here: democrats.org

Good luck with your pursuits.

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Parker Roberts
Parker Roberts

Give me a single example of someone praising non-white ethnic tribalism.
literally any native/indigenous nationalists on twitter, including native hawaiian, and their white knighting friends that call you richard spencer for simply pointing out their racism

Kevin Cruz
Kevin Cruz

Calling people "social justice warriors" or "vampires" or whatever from the left to attack the concealment of class in discussion is IMO a limp attempt to replace material analysis of trends on the left with a farcically iconoclastic opposition stance that suggests the person using it hopes to capture support from the most pavlovian corners of the far right.
You don't like the term IDPOL being defined as what 95%+ of this board uses it as. Ok, leaving semantics aside, whats anti materialist is a subjectivizing epistemology which lends itself to the erasure of class analysis from left spaces. Your gaslighting attempts to pathologize legitimate concerns about an epistemologically and politically balkanizing praxis are misguided.

perhaps its you who should go to democrats.org , hillary

Bentley Wilson
Bentley Wilson

Why do trannies have to plague anime so much

Anthony Smith
Anthony Smith

Anti-Racism, Anti-Imperialism, Feminism and LGBTQ liberation are core tenets of our board, your polfag is showing

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Leo Ross
Leo Ross

t. radlib apologist for brown fascism
or actual /pol/ troll on 7 layers of irony

Kayden Morris
Kayden Morris

/twitter/index.html

Joshua Johnson
Joshua Johnson

go back to reddit
go back to twitter
lmao I love this vanity from people who think writing on a board known for neonazism and child porn that isn't listed on google makes them special

Jordan Nguyen
Jordan Nguyen

not recognizing blatant shitposting
getting your larfs by pretending to be retarded and making retards feel welcome

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Dominic Morgan
Dominic Morgan

No, shut the fuck up, leftism is when you think certain people are inferior and deserving of brutal oppression because they have more melanin in their skin or are gay

No wanting to eradicate minorities and gays is literally naziism

Adrian Stewart
Adrian Stewart

Pretending I’m not pol troll while thinking exactly like them

Samuel Perry
Samuel Perry

if youre not a troll youre fucking stupid as shit

Carter Sanchez
Carter Sanchez

There is no liberation under Imperialism. What part of "Imperialism: The highest stage of Capitalism" do you not get?

Nolan Rodriguez
Nolan Rodriguez

this nigger needs to fucking read.
DAS DA MOST WHITEBOI SHIT I'VE EVER HEARD
<a minute later
guilting white people doesn't exist, fisher's just mad he get's called out
well, actually, not everyone is like that x1000
well I agree but fuck you mark, your racist because you can't take callouts
what a terrible reading of the article. misunderstood the content on every turn. and even then, the response was shit. just goes to show how unread "left tube" youtubers are. From the comments:
tfw mark fisher roasts you thru your own voice
hahaha based.

The article was written in 2013, years before the whole SJW shit, in my opinion, reached climax (2015-2016?). Now I think we're moving towards a kind of "synthesis" of liberal progressiveism and SJW ideology into "idpol by default" liberalism. SJW stripped of the anger and the REEE, internalized into left liberal ideology. Like a silent, but necessary identitarianism, where you're no longer ""subversive"" for being identitiarian (not that identitarianism ever was), but rather, it is expected that you ascribe to an identity. Which might explain in part how right identitarianism grew, since the big Other expected for everyone to have an identity. It's hard to tell. Thoughts?

Ayden Barnes
Ayden Barnes

THIS
Identity reductionism is the "idpol" we're against. Calling us class reductionists is just projection. And the worst of it is when you reduce class to an identity when it's a material relation to production, although yes of course there is an identity built around that.

Charles Harris
Charles Harris

Contra is like an anti-villain to us. She is probably a decent person IRL and does seem to try to get to the bottom of stuff instead of just repeating bullshit. But her politics are garbage and her ideological journey started from extremely cancerous liberalism, so she still ends up helping liberals focus on idpol and diverting people away from classpol.

Jason Ramirez
Jason Ramirez

muh russell brand isnt working class this is actually true
Russell Brand may not be working class (I don't know if he owns private property or is a business owner or whatever), but the argument in the video is that millionaires can't be working class, which is definitely wrong. Class isn't your income or level of wealth. It's how you get your bread. Plenty of wealthy people make money from working as opposed to from ownership, and plenty of wealthy people are exploited. A good example of this is a rockstar who makes money from doing tours, but doesn't see most of the revenue generated because it goes to the studio they're signed to. You might call such a person a "labor aristocrat" because they make a lot more money than the road crew for instance, but their relationship to the production process is that of a worker, not a capitalist.

Bentley Kelly
Bentley Kelly

a trans anarchist youtuber defending idpol while playing overwatch and using an anime avatar

into the trash it goes

Owen Smith
Owen Smith

maybe a rockstar(or professional athlete) is an extreme example, because if you make enough money you will eventually reinvest it into the circuit of capital. if the rock star/athlete puts his millions in the bank or stock market, he will earn interest and the bank will lend it out to other people/businesses to the point where hes actually making a decent (to a normal person) amount of income off that.

OTOH someone like a general practitioner, dentist, engineer, etc. really are labor aristocrats because they make above the normal wage but below the amount to live off capital alone.

Anyone who makes >$40/hr USD is a labor aristocrat but realistically you need about 2-3 million to live off dividends/capital gains at a normal salary

Eli Davis
Eli Davis

SJW stripped of the anger and the REEE, internalized into left liberal ideology. Like a silent, but necessary identitarianism, where you're no longer ""subversive"" for being identitiarian (not that identitarianism ever was), but rather, it is expected that you ascribe to an identity.
Basically, but the liberal presence on youtube is now basically nill. all the old sjw content mills like buzzfeed, etc. have stopped putting out social commentary due to enormous backlash.
Now anti sjws have to actively find things to be offended about (ironically) and sperg out about muh woman/muh black superhero movie. The only place liberalism lives now is in small liberal arts college cirriculums/safe spaces and indirectly through pro idpol left/breadtubers like contra, mexie, noncompete, etc.
Which might explain in part how right identitarianism grew, since the big Other expected for everyone to have an identity. It's hard to tell. Thoughts?
technically right/white identitarianism came first since racism preceded anti racism historically, but if youre talking about the modern reactionary resurgance then yes i would agree its a combination of a backlash to SJW stuff + a bunch of stormfags flooding every corner of the internet with their memes and brainwashing weak minded teens. TBH even an sjw would agree that the right wing resurgance is partly due to a backlash against SJW, however they would basically just characterize it as inevitable as 'any social movement towards progress has a backlash' similar to how young people became conservative during the reagan years as a rebellion to their hippy boomer parents, getting mbas, going to wall street with cocaine and hair metal

Ryder Rodriguez
Ryder Rodriguez

so we should make anti idpol left mainstream

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Mason Walker
Mason Walker

Agree with the general sentitment of your post but I do think that Labour Aristocracy as a category does need some refinement; in the US a large amount of dentists/doctors are also technically petit-bourgeois since they own their own practices. I assume you're taking your $40 number from Cockshotts calculation as a monetary "equivalent" of an hour of labour by dividing total GDP by total labour hours? It'd be more clear if you expanded on that rather than just making the assertion because the number isn't static, it's a representation of your relationship to exploitation under wage labour. There's a lot to be extrapolated with the concept of rents when it comes to Labour Aristocracy as well, in terms of how you account for accreditation mechanisms and freelancers and stuff, esp with things like Patreon, when it has come to an analysis of those who make their money off of essentially personal IP piggbacking off platform capital I struggle to define if they're labour aristocrats, lumpen or even petit-bourg

Hunter Williams
Hunter Williams

What the fuck is up with anime that turns all its fans into either ugly trans liberals or fatass white supremacist incels?

Kevin Richardson
Kevin Richardson

yes, but we need to make it clear what anti idpol is. So many on the left hear anti idpol and think of being for socialism without rights for minorities, which isnt what it is. Its just easier to say anti idpol than saying:

anti woke neoliberalism / corporations co-opting wokeness to sell shit

anti postcolonial theory saying marx was a whiteboi so we shouldnt listen to him

anti giving non-european/white nationalism/fascism (including native) a pass, including defending native activists who literally call for violent or non violent ethnic cleansing of non natives.

anti upper middle class and petit bourgeois white liberals explaining class antagonisms in terms of race, gender, etc. in order to erase class analysis from the acceptable discourse and language of the left

anti having those same liberals call you white straight male bigot when you point out they are doing this, even if you arent a white straight male. They do erasure of any non white male critics of their bullshit and then characterize all of the criticism of their bourg-washing of left politics as the REEEEEing of muh white mayuls

Gavin Davis
Gavin Davis

I used the rockstar example because it's extreme. Those people are making lots of money but they're still getting a comparative pittance compared to the revenue generated by their work. Overall I don't think we disagree much. I'm just trying to make the distinction clear instead of letting someone mislead people into thinking class = wealth.

Thomas Jones
Thomas Jones

I agree, but also that if you have enough wealth invested in a circuit of capital that does make you petit bourgeois/bourgeois since you can live off capital gains and being a wagecuck is optional at that point.

So are you saying that the millions made by rockstars is directly from their own production of surplus value and not the roadies, studio engineers, people who work in the CD factory or w/e, and vast army of people who worked to also contribute to their success. Because IMO the rockstar although they do the work of making music, most of the gazillions they have are because of surplus value being shuffled around in exchange, like copyright on music being a rent (intellectual property) unless your saying a rockstars skilled labor is 10000x more productive than an average laborer

Parker Ross
Parker Ross

Their is nothing wrong with class reductionism. Social problems stem from the mode of production. Social issues can’t be solved without changing the mode of production. Read Marx.

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Lincoln Watson
Lincoln Watson

The SJWs of 2014 are for the most part dead and gone, but Intercentionality as an academic concept is not.

Jaxson White
Jaxson White

looked at their youtube vids
a bunch of culture wars shit
nothing on strikes, class struggle, or economics
no theory or philosophy
Why should I take this person seriously?

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Ryder Thompson
Ryder Thompson

I assume you're taking your $40 number from Cockshotts calculation as a monetary "equivalent" of an hour of labour by dividing total GDP by total labour hours?
Doesn't that fail to account for unpaid labor or labor otherwise not going toward GDP?

There's a lot to be extrapolated with the concept of rents when it comes to Labour Aristocracy as well, in terms of how you account for accreditation mechanisms and freelancers and stuff, esp with things like Patreon, when it has come to an analysis of those who make their money off of essentially personal IP piggbacking off platform capital I struggle to define if they're labour aristocrats, lumpen or even petit-bourg
There isn't a single answer for these because there are wildly different structures here. A patreon page might pay one person or a company, and the amount paid might be equivalent to the value of the labor they're doing in total (or less). If there's no paywall involved then the people paying them are doing it of their own volition rather than as a strict exchange for the product (instead ideally seeing the value they pay put into the work being done). In that system, you have effectively turned the patrons into consumer-owners or something since if the content isn't what they want they can revoke patronage. If there is a paywall, then you are arguably doing IP-based rent, but ultimately it depends on how much you bring in vs the value in the work. IMO the more important critique here is the way that people have to resort to weird models like this to live while doing certain kinds of work, where the rewards have more to do with personality and popularity than the work itself.

I agree, but also that if you have enough wealth invested in a circuit of capital that does make you petit bourgeois/bourgeois since you can live off capital gains and being a wagecuck is optional at that point.
That's true. If a billionaire chooses to spend their time working at McDonald's they still are a prole in the context of that relationship, though.
So are you saying that the millions made by rockstars is directly from their own production of surplus value and not the roadies, studio engineers, people who work in the CD factory or w/e, and vast army of people who worked to also contribute to their success.
Yes. The labor of the support crew is going to surplus as well, taken by the studios. Most performers like this have (famously) shitty deals with the studio that signed them as an up and comer.
Because IMO the rockstar although they do the work of making music, most of the gazillions they have are because of surplus value being shuffled around in exchange, like copyright on music being a rent (intellectual property) unless your saying a rockstars skilled labor is 10000x more productive than an average laborer
Rockstars don't generally make much if anything from licensing. Almost all of that goes to the studio. Most rockstars actively tour, doing live performances for crowds. Those people are directly doing labor for thousands of people and pulling in large sums of money. Compare that to a cover band (as in, the same IP, just different performers) and see how many people show up to purchase the product.

Leo Scott
Leo Scott

Well, yeah. But pure economism is bulshit. It was criticized even by Marx.

Adam Brown
Adam Brown

Pure economism or "class reductionism" may be bad but it's strictly better than identity reductionism.

Ethan Butler
Ethan Butler

Looks like LA red guards dissolved because of idpol. At least Unruhe says it.
youtube.com/watch?v=mEHVNrqIkrU

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Nolan Thomas
Nolan Thomas

muh poor rockstars dindu nuffin
Them being highly profitable for studios does not make them any less exploiters. They get more value in terms of labour time than they produce *a lot* more. A Goldman Sachs stockbroker is not being exploited just because the company is employing him profitably, rather he and the company owners are exploiting people who receive less than they produce in terms of labor time and they just split the loot unevenly.

Hunter Brown
Hunter Brown

moe

Jace Cook
Jace Cook

If you think meaningful social change that isn’t market-driven can occur under capitalism your lying to yourself.

Parker Baker
Parker Baker

They get more value in terms of labour time than they produce *a lot* more.
Can you substantiate this?

Dominic Brown
Dominic Brown

As of 2019, Paul McCartney’s net worth is $1.2 Billion, making him the richest rock star of all time.

Tyler Martin
Tyler Martin

liking astroturfed trannies
lmao @ your life

Gavin Nguyen
Gavin Nguyen

cover band
yeah but a cover band is not the same IP. its playing the same songs but your'e forgetting that the band name, band logo, and rockstar personalities/personas themselves are a form of IP which the cover band doesnt have

Aiden Wright
Aiden Wright

I like many kinds of trannies, not just astroturfed ones.

Brayden Mitchell
Brayden Mitchell

Exactly

Aaron Scott
Aaron Scott

Well if a cover band could use everything but the musicians themselves they still wouldn't pull the same crowds. You can't really call a person IP since they're not information but a physical entity.

picking literally the richest of all time as a representative sample

Joseph Richardson
Joseph Richardson

The rule of thumb for most occupations like this is if they are investing in commodity production or obtaining investments which generate a profit surplus they then reinvest into further commodity production, they are a bourgeoisie or at worst a rent-seeker who survives purely though their investments. If they are just someone who gets money through gigs and doesn't put that money towards the things I mentioned, they technically aren't rent-seeking or are bourgeoisie. They may be on the higher end of labour and thus be more likely to ally themselves with the bourgeoisie, but they themselves are not bourgeoisie.

For example, Beyonce is a bourgeoisie proper because she utilized her income to make investments into commodity production for her clothing lines and brand, production that generates for her a further profit. Most big name artists do something along this line. However, if there was an artist who made their money purely through gigs, they would not be a bourgeoisie or rent-seeker. If they did well though, they might by in the upper tier of labour.

Sebastian Robinson
Sebastian Robinson

You can't really call a person IP since they're not information but a physical entity.
personality =/= person. e: avenged sevenfold, Matt Sanders is a guy, M shadows is his stage name/persona. It's their 'public persona' which is the IP not their physical body. Its rent in the form of fame

Nicholas Perry
Nicholas Perry

If only that person can play that persona then the IP distinction is irrelevant because you need their performance to have the "IP."

Joseph Gutierrez
Joseph Gutierrez

But I don't see why people treat this like a problem among the left when it isn't among the left at all; they're just liberals.
Because people are told that those people are left wing. This is the problem.

Brayden Moore
Brayden Moore

who is this and why should i care?

Liam Stewart
Liam Stewart

Because people are told that those people are left wing. This is the problem.
Not just that, these people self-identify as left wing too. They are trying to occupy our position within the overton window and they're appropriating the trappings of socialism, including theorists and history by (perhaps deliberately) misreading them.

Gavin Johnson
Gavin Johnson

:(

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Ayden Allen
Ayden Allen

I've been opting for "materialist" lately.
anti-idpol left is redundant.
Outside academia, intersectionality means "solidarity with all types of oppressed people" anyways.
Now anti sjws have to actively find things to be offended about (ironically)
I've noticed this as well, all the "sjw cringe compilations" are usually very old videos.
Has the popularity of right youtubers waned? Milo is dead, Dave Rubin is a broken record and anyone with two neurons can see he's a retard, Ben Shapiro is a Zionist that can only debate college students (and his voice and face are very annoying), Peterson was shown to be inadequate by Zizek, Alex Jones was banned from places and is a complete schizo.
I don't really follow youtubers, but there's also sargon, steven mollyneux, peter james wattson (PJW or whatever), and more bland right wingers like sam harris, joe rogan.

Michael Reyes
Michael Reyes

Things that Marx personally kicked out of his orgs are part of a Marxist board

Fuck off.

Brayden Sanchez
Brayden Sanchez

Marx kicked them out for being identity-reductionist not for caring about these issues at all

Asher Parker
Asher Parker

Outside academia, intersectionality means "solidarity with all types of oppressed people" anyways.

Except it isn't synonym of solidarity. And also it means screeching about "le ebil cishet white males" and " checking privileges"

Hunter Miller
Hunter Miller

Lol, why do you think it's bat'ko?

Jackson Carter
Jackson Carter

Outside academia, intersectionality means "solidarity with all types of oppressed people" anyways.
No it means that people like Obama have more in common with black workers than black workers have in common with white workers.

Kayden Clark
Kayden Clark

People like you conflate the idea that Marx is racist in today's terms with the idea that Marx like all of us displays ethnocentric viewpoints, specifically in his case related to the European Enlightenment. Here's some Baudrillard to help you understand. It's not about being woke and calling Marx out, but about seeing how his critique doesn't go far enough. People who go to a certain point, then get nostalgic or dogmatic, are not revolutionaries but conservatives. We have to argue this out, and not just say "You're racist!" "Well you're stupid!"

The Moral Philosophy of the Enlightenment

All the major concepts (those worthy of a capital letter) depend on the same operation. The "People," for example, whose ideal reference emerges with the collapse of traditional community and the urban concentration of destructured masses. Marxist analysis unmasked the myth of the People and revealed what it ideally hides: wage earners and the class struggle. On the other hand, Marxism only partially dislocated the myth of Nature and the idealist anthropology it supports. Marx indeed "denaturalized" private property, the mechanisms of competition and the market, and the processes of labor and capital; but he failed to question the following naturalist propositions:
– the useful finality of products as a function of needs;
– the useful finality of nature as a function of its transformation by labor.
The functionality of Nature structured by labor, and the corresponding functionality of the subject structured around needs, belong to the anthropological sphere of use value described by Enlightenment rationality and defined for a whole civilization (which imposed it on others) by a
certain kind of abstract, linear, irreversible finality: a certain model subsequently extended to all sectors of individual and social practice.

This operational finality is arbitrary in such a way that the concept of Nature it forgets resists integration within it. It looks as if forcefully rationalized Nature reemerges elsewhere in an irrational form. Without ceasing to be ideological, the concept splits into a "good" Nature that is dominated and rationalized (which acts as the ideal cultural reference) and a "bad" Nature that is hostile, menacing, catastrophic, or polluted. All bourgeois ideology divides between these two poles.

The same split occurs simultaneously at the level of man, through his idealist simplification as an element of the economic system. Starting with the 18th century, the idea of Man divides into a naturally good man (a projection of man sublimated as a productive force) and an instinctively evil man endowed with evil powers. The entire philosophical debate is organized around these sham alternatives, which result simply from the elevation of man to an economic abstraction. Marxism and all revolutionary perspectives are aligned on the optimist vision. They preserve the idea of an innate human rationality, a positive potentiality that must be liberated, even in the latest Freudo-Marxist version in which the unconscious itself is reinterpreted as "natural" wealth, a hidden positivity that will burst forth in the revolutionary act.

This dichotomy also occurs at the level of labor power. When exploited, labor power is good: it is within Nature and is normal. But, once liberated, it becomes menacing in the form of the proletariat. This contradiction is averted by assimilating the proletariat to a demonic, perverse, destructive Nature. Thus the dichotomy in the idea of Nature which expresses the profound separation in the economic order is admirably recuperated at the ideological level as a principle of moral order and social discrimination.

Matthew Hill
Matthew Hill

Fetishized for better or for worse, such is the true "alienation" of Nature and of the corresponding idea of Man. When at the same time he brands Nature and himself with the seal of production, man proscribes every relation of symbolic exchange between himself and Nature. It is this proscribed ambivalence that reemerges in the ambiguity of Nature and in man's own moral contradiction.

Marxism has not disencumbered itself of the moral philosophy of the Enlightenment. It has rejected its naive and sentimental side (Rousseau and Bernardin de Saint-Pierre), its cloying and fantastic religiosity (from the noble savage and the Age of Gold to the sorcerer's apprentice), but it holds onto the religion: the moralizing phantasm of a Nature to be conquered. By secularizing it in the economic concept of scarcity, Marxism keeps the idea of Necessity without transforming it. The idea of "natural Necessity" is only a moral idea dictated by political economy, the ethical and philosophical version of that bad Nature systematically connected with the arbitrary postulate of the economic. In the mirror of the economic, Nature looks at us with the eyes of necessity.

Marx says, "Just as the savage must wrestle with Nature to satisfy his wants, to maintain and reproduce life, so must civilized man, and he must do so in all social formations and under all possible modes of production. With his development this realm of physical necessity expands as a result of his wants: but, at the same time, the forces in production which satisfy these wants also increase." 36 What is not recognized here – and what allies Marx with the foundations of political economy – is that in his symbolic exchanges primitive man does not guage himself in relation to Nature. He is not
aware of Necessity, a Law that takes effect only with the objectification of Nature. The Law takes its definitive form in capitalist political economy; moreover, it is only the philosophical expression of Scarcity. Scarcity, which itself arises in the market economy, is not a given dimension of the economy. Rather, it is what produces and reproduces economic exchange. In that regard it is different from primitive exchange, which knows nothing of this "Law of Nature" that pretends to be the ontological dimension of man. 37 Hence it is an extremely serious problem that Marxist thought retains these key concepts which depend on the metaphysics of the market economy in general and on modern capitalist ideology in particular. Not analyzed or unmasked (but exported to primitive society where they do not apply), these concepts mortgage all further analysis. The concept of production is never questioned; it will never radically overcome the influence of political economy. Even Marxism's transcending perspective will always be burdened by counterdependence on political economy. Against Necessity it will oppose the mastery of Nature; against Scarcity it will oppose Abundance ("to each according to his needs") without ever resolving either the arbitrariness of these concepts or their idealist overdetermination by political economy.

The political order is at stake here. Can the quantitative development of productive forces lead to a revolution of social relations? Revolutionary hope is based "objectively" and hopelessly on this claim. Even for Marcuse in The End of Utopia, the due date of revolution is at hand given our technological potentials: quantitative change is possible as of now. Even when the situation has clearly drifted enormously far from revolution and the dominant social relations support the very development of productive forces in an endless spiral, this dialectical voluntarism, for which Necessity exists and must be conquered, is not shaken. Scarcity exists and must be abolished; the Productive Forces exist and must be liberated; the End exists and only the means need be found. All revolutionary hope is thus bound up in a Promethean myth of productive forces, but this myth is only the space time of political economy. And the desire to manipulate destiny through the development of productive forces plunges one into the space time of political economy. The wish to abolish scarcity is not furthered by restoring an integrated productivity. The concept of Scarcity itself, the concept of Necessity, and the concept of Production must be exploded because they rivet the bolt of political economy. No dialectic leads beyond political economy because it is the very movement of political economy that is dialectical.

TL;DR: Marxism uncritically adopts concepts from the Enlightenment which contain ideological errors. Primarily this is based on a Man/Nature dualism which revolves around "mastering" Nature, a theme which was present in European thought and made worse by Christianity. Instead, there is no separation from Nature, so the fantasy of controlling nature cannot be realized (you can't get out of it to control it from outside).

Jonathan Morgan
Jonathan Morgan

anti idpol left is redundant

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Brody Carter
Brody Carter

overwatch and anime girl persona
anarchists really are caricatures of themselves

Elijah Murphy
Elijah Murphy

Reminder that O-bomb-a's black side is his non-American African dad, he was raised by his mother who he described as a "typical white woman" and he went to Harvard. He's only black if your idea of black is skin deep.

Caleb Sanders
Caleb Sanders

None of this matters. The public at large thinks he’s black, therefore he’s black.

Alexander Kelly
Alexander Kelly

Doesn't contradict what I said.
He's only black if your idea of black is skin deep.
Indeed, the public at large has a skin deep idea of race and racism.

Carter Sanders
Carter Sanders

Are you a race realist?

Henry Young
Henry Young

Indeed, the public at large has a skin deep idea of race and racism.
No shit, race is skin deep at most. It’s a made up concept.

Connor Torres
Connor Torres

Are you a race realist?
No, what the fuck?
It’s a made up concept.
Being a social construct doesn't make it irrelevant. Are you denying that racism is an issue and one that Obama was largely insulated from? He didn't have to live with the lower socioeconomic status that's typical of black Americans descended from slaves, or much of the social repression that goes along with being a part of those communities. At most he had people call him nigger or whatever because he looks black.

Blake Hall
Blake Hall

He didn't have to live with the lower socioeconomic status that's typical of black Americans descended from slaves, or much of the social repression that goes along with being a part of those communities.
That’s my point, class struggle is the most important struggle in modern society.

David Allen
David Allen

The fact that that is a particular struggle that he didn't have to deal with isn't an argument that it doesn't exist, it rather implies that it does exist and that there's a meaningful distinction here.

Brody Turner
Brody Turner

He is right though.

There are mainly two definitions of the word 'idpol' on this board, both with very incorrect implications on what our and the left's politics should be. The first is corporate progressivism like pushing for more female CEOs. This overlooks the fact that there are sections of the left which oppose the commodification of marginalized identities and even capitalism, even if they are somewhat reformist (it's not like we on this board don't have/had regular threads circlejerking about the genius of Our Glorious Leader Jeremy Corbyn). A good example for this, since we are on this matter, lefttube. Just try to find me one youtuber in this "group" who isn't anti-capitalist, even if they have a socdem praxis.

The other definition of idpol is "focusing on social issues instead class struggle". Well, this is a really laughable one. It's really sad that some people unironically call themselves class reductionists just to own the libs. A lot of times the truly radical dimension of class struggle comes to the surface when it is used to analyze non-class issues. For example it's clear that we should be against anti-black racism because it is a way make white proles believe that they are somehow "above" other people while they are in the lower social class.

Don't misunderstand me, I totally agree with Mark Fisher and oppose intersectionality, which instead of placing everything in the base-superstructure relationship, just creates a loose collection of struggles and abandons any kind of structure among them. Instead of creating a materialist and objective analysis of society in which the mode of production influences how politics work or what culture is and in turn these are used to reproduce capitalism, it relies on subjective experience of oppression. Basically people are oppressed when they feel oppressed so class oppression is just another oppression with no special place. This is why self-proclaimed anti-capitalists like Contrapoints spend their time mostly talking about transgender issues.

Sebastian Morales
Sebastian Morales

Yeah, both identity and class reductionism is bullshit. But when we talk against idpol in the socialist/communist circles we don't say to stop engaging in anti racism. We just don't want to have some SJWish cringe with red flags.

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Lincoln Wilson
Lincoln Wilson

O-bomb-a's black side is his non-American African dad
And Obama's American side got slave-owner ancestry, like almost all US Presidents.

Carter Thompson
Carter Thompson

What the fuck did you just fucking say about anime, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the JDF, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on titans, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in mecha warfare and I'm the top shinigami in the entire Japanese armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of ninjas across Nippon and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my non-fapping hands. Not only am I extensively trained in taijutsu, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the Konohagakure and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" post was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

Samuel Scott
Samuel Scott

Anarchists deserve the bullet, prove me wrong.

Brandon Ward
Brandon Ward

Sounds good to me iww.org/history/library/iww/responsetoRILU/4

John Gomez
John Gomez

Lukewarm take, I think that what you're identifying is related to different posters on Zig Forums attempting to capitulate to either side of the space that we exist in as an entity; on one hand we exist on a website that is essentially a colony of the internet far-right, and this is what we as a community were born from, but on the other hand the wider online far-left movement is thoroughly inculcated into a particular kind of discourse that has some negative effects, and what we end up doing when we wish to be even-handed is play a sort of "bothsidesism" when critiquing which in itself is a capitulation to the conception of "Identity Politics" however loosely the term is defined.

Like structurally what we have issues with is prevalent in both of these spaces that we exist between and the only real way to move forward from them is to step outside of it rather than posturing in opposition to it. And I agree that the people who attempt to moderate towards the right are thinking about it wrong but in a different way than the people who are trying to moderate to radlibs are. I generally tend not to call things idpol at all; rather I just attempt to bring a Historical Materialist analysis into things as a Marxist because most of the time the strength of that is enough without ever having to go on a counteroffensive, and actually ends up having the most positive impact in actually attempting to formulate an understanding in this left that we're shunned from, rather than having to go on the offensive against it.

Idk if this makes sense because I'm just typing stream of consciousness here but I guess what I'm saying is that we shouldn't be so concerned with destroying identitarianism as a political vehicle, as though if we were to succeed everyone would suddenly see the light of HisMat but instead have faith in our own worldview because it's correct and use it to essentially render it obsolete, creating a positive political project.

Nathan Ward
Nathan Ward

*This overlooks the fact that there are sections of the left which we call idpolers who oppose

Jaxon Miller
Jaxon Miller

Lol, it's hilarious that even here the liberals have started showing up and insisting that class reductionism is wrong, as though the idpols themselves aren't depending on promises of full stomachs and warm housing for support.

Ryan Wilson
Ryan Wilson

Yeah, it's interesting how they manage to find every discussion about idpol

Chase Lee
Chase Lee

I like idpol, its the best divide and conquer the anglozionist liberal ruling class has ever made. Makes socialists and communists so weak, its like they dont even exist anymore.

Blake Morris
Blake Morris

looks like we really should define what is idpol , "class reductionism", "brocialism/manarchism"

Elijah Long
Elijah Long

The problem is that "class reductionism" is vaguely defined thing. If that means just ignoring problems with racism etc. then I agree it's bullshit. But this kind of people are non significant minority.

Mostly people use phrase "class reductionism" mean by this
muh they say that class struggle is more important than our identity struggles
muh they care more about white racist proles than about rich black transwoman

Tyler White
Tyler White

brocialism is just buzzword used by idpoltards, it means litterally nothing

Robert Cruz
Robert Cruz

The first is corporate progressivism like pushing for more female CEOs. This overlooks the fact that there are sections of the left which oppose the commodification of marginalized identities and even capitalism, even if they are somewhat reformist

We are not ignoring them. But just the fact there are pro idpol leftists who are against this corporate "black trans cops" narrative doesn't make their antics better

Just try to find me one youtuber in this "group" who isn't anti-capitalist, even if they have a socdem praxis.
Nazbols are also anti capitalist. And their politics are atill cringe. Why it should be different with Lefttubers

A lot of times the truly radical dimension of class struggle comes to the surface when it is used to analyze non-class issues
Yes, but we definitely should opposed some sakaist bullshit that black proletariat is exploited by all classes of white settlers or that women are class.

Basically people are oppressed when they feel oppressed so class oppression is just another oppression with no special place.
Nope. Class is not just another identity. Class is relation. Bourg depends on worker but white cishet male does not depend on black trans woman.
Also "people are oppressed when they feel oppressed" is just feels>>>reals narrative. Because of this kind of thinking we have fat idpol ("muh fatshaming") or retard idpol ("muh stupid is an ableist slur")

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Parker Reed
Parker Reed

There's no such thing as being leftist and against idpol though. You'd be considered a nazi by all leftist movements in the real world and even 99% of web commies.

Ryan Mitchell
Ryan Mitchell

2897610
Tbh CPGB-ML adheres to ☭TANKIE☭ identity politics: they are an identitarian movement for people that identify as Stalinists

Colton Fisher
Colton Fisher

lol ok, kid
looks like CPGB-ML and IMT dont exist
Zizek and Parenti are fictional characters
Same for Adolph Reed
This site is just illusion, it has never existed

Nicholas Perez
Nicholas Perez

based af

Bentley Morales
Bentley Morales

I'll just leave this here

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Camden Wilson
Camden Wilson

Radlibs refer to anyone who privileges class over identitarian struggle and economic over cultural phenomenon as a class reductionist. Anyone who is a historical materialist (i.e. Marxist) is a class reductionist in their eyes.

What is alarming about these theoretical developments is not that they violate some doctrinaire Marxist prejudice concerning the privileged status of class. Of course, the whole object of the exercise is to sideline class, to dissolve it in all-embracing categories which deny it any privileged status, or even any political relevance at all. But that is not the real problem.

The problem is that theories which do not differentiate — and, yes, “privilege,” if that means ascribing causal or explanatory priorities — among various social institutions and “identities” cannot deal critically with capitalism at all. The consequence of these procedures is to sweep the whole question under the rug.

And whither capitalism, so goes the socialist idea. Socialism is the specific alternative to capitalism. Without capitalism, we have no need of socialism; we can make do with very diffuse and indeterminate concepts of democracy which are not specifically opposed to any identifiable system of social relations, in fact do not even recognize any such system. What we are left with then is a fragmented plurality of oppressions and a fragmented plurality of emancipatory struggles.

-ELLEN MEIKSINS WOOD

This is totally wrong and anyone who believes this simply reveals that the're interaction with "the left" is entirely carried out online. I live in a very liberal, idpol infested country (Canada) and the largest Marxist organization here (the IMT) is explicitly anti-idpol. They basically have an analysis that mirror Zig Forums's i.e. that intersectionality, privilege theory, etc. are petty bourgeois, idealist, and simply cause division in the working class movement.

we shouldn't be so concerned with destroying identitarianism as a political vehicle, as though if we were to succeed everyone would suddenly see the light of HisMat but instead have faith in our own worldview because it's correct and use it to essentially render it obsolete, creating a positive political project.

we shouldn't be so concerned with destroying identitarianism as a political vehicle, as though if we were to succeed everyone would suddenly see the light of HisMat but instead have faith in our own worldview because it's correct and use it to essentially render it obsolete, creating a positive political project.

Based and redpilled

Many (most outside the USA) Marxist intellectual and Marxist organization are against idpol.

Zachary Murphy
Zachary Murphy

idpol: the politicization of identity, turning identity into a political hierarchy
Applies to things like structural racism in society at large and stuff like the progressive stack that gives more time to the people who spend all day tallying their points in the oppression olympics.

brocialist/manarchist are just snarl words used against people who range from barely socialist at all with a lot of reactionary baggage to any socialist who's critical of woke thought.

"Death threats" aside, this is someone who seems barely socialized at all, exactly the sort of material ripe for the kinds of views expressed in the video from OP.

This is totally wrong and anyone who believes this simply reveals that the're interaction with "the left" is entirely carried out online.
Many (most outside the USA) Marxist intellectual and Marxist organization are against idpol.
It's pretty true of the USA in my experience to be fair.

Brayden Howard
Brayden Howard

effortposting
well, I read it, user.

Jonathan Watson
Jonathan Watson

It's pretty true of the USA in my experience to be fair.
The USA is its own beast. You can't actually separate idpol from leftism within the USA because porky has pretty effectively killed off the materialist left and so leftism has only managed to survive under the mask of idpol. Leftism is extremely deformed in the USA, if the USA actually has a left at all.

Levi Ward
Levi Ward

We are not ignoring them. But just the fact there are pro idpol leftists who are against this corporate "black trans cops" narrative doesn't make their antics better
Nazbols are also anti capitalist. And their politics are atill cringe. Why it should be different with Lefttubers
My only point was that characterizing idpol as corporate progressivism (just like certain people did ITT) is wrong because this doesn't apply to every "idpoler".
Yes, but we definitely should opposed some sakaist bullshit that black proletariat is exploited by all classes of white settlers or that women are class.
Some women are definitely part of a special class because of housewifes.
Nope. Class is not just another identity. Class is relation. Bourg depends on worker but white cishet male does not depend on black trans woman.
I was criticizing that notion, not agreeing with it.

Jaxon Ramirez
Jaxon Ramirez

Some women are definitely part of a special class because of housewifes.
Why? What makes them special class? Aren't they just working class?

Daniel Russell
Daniel Russell

that first picture
Christ

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Jace Ward
Jace Ward

antimperialism
Anti-imperialism is inherently classpol. You can't take that away from us you libshit.

David Taylor
David Taylor

The bourgeois conception of identity is inherently reactionary and those that defend politics based on this reactionary conception are themselves advancing the cause of reaction.

Asher Baker
Asher Baker

Give me a single example of someone praising non-white ethnic tribalism.
Go on tumblr and throw a stone. You can't without hitting nativist advocates for a return to Hawaiian Aristocracy, or people defending the Japanese Empire as a reasonable response against European racism, or throwing a fit when "indigenous" people have their shitty cultures criticized. There's plenty of "if you're not [part of this arbitrary group] then you can't say/do/think/etc anything about what [arbitrary group] does. Not to mention all the brain damaged Sakaiists that dream all this blood and soil shit of kicking all the evil white people out of the Americas to return them to the rule of the Good Natives. If they didn't have their race and pronouns plastered all over their stupid profiles you'd think you were reading a nazi wetdream blog.

Brayden Roberts
Brayden Roberts

Give me a single example of someone praising non-white ethnic tribalism.
Chairman Yeshitela and organization Uhuru want to talk with you
uhurusolidarity.org/

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Carter Peterson
Carter Peterson

Housewives aren't employed by a capitalist for a wage.

Gavin Morales
Gavin Morales

While even within the USA my (anti-idpol) org has a sister organization w/ the same line: socialistrevolution.org/should-socialists-be-preparing-for-revolution

Landon Stewart
Landon Stewart

russell brand isnt working class (this is actually true)
what? class is not the same as income
nobody corrected that, wtf has happened to leftypol?

Kayden Gomez
Kayden Gomez

see There was a whole discussion about this.

Jackson Mitchell
Jackson Mitchell

still working class though. even if it's unpayed labor.

Isaac Rodriguez
Isaac Rodriguez

excuse me, i'm retarded
thanks

Grayson Anderson
Grayson Anderson

I'm pretty convinced now that reddit leftist communities are infested with individuals (and groups) participating in bad faith to sow division and prevent left unity

Wyatt Moore
Wyatt Moore

Reddit in general is full of astroturfing. The site is a huge marketing tool. Look at shit like /r/dogswithjobs which is mostly photos of police dogs or /r/upliftingnews which is mostly shit like poor people selling their houses to pay for their neighbor's kid's cancer treatment.

The feds would be retarded not to infest places like /r/socialism which is one of the most prominent left-wing communities online and super easy to subvert.

Luke Young
Luke Young

youtube.com/watch?v=VdrvQ-EF1M4

Is this nigga seriously threatening strangers on twitter with a fucking walmart katana?

Jack Mitchell
Jack Mitchell

Wasn't he theorising why they dissolved?

Angel Carter
Angel Carter

Fuck off

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Camden Rogers
Camden Rogers

Necromancering a dead thread to say "fuck off"

James Anderson
James Anderson

Yes. I like the particularly stupid touch of pointing out the Walmart katana had a pink hilt. Clearly, the Bride personified.

Easton Fisher
Easton Fisher

lol