Does the left obsess too much about "fighting fascism" and give neoliberalism a pass? Is no platform a form of anti-class lens idpol?
I can't be the only one who's noticed that the left, liberal and progressive loose alliance are very much united in opposition to fascism (which in 2019 means anything to do with supporting dominant racial identities, anti-migration, etc) but at the same neoliberalism (which, lets remind ourselves, is in power, so more than just *say* nasty shit, they actuall enact it too, for instance the Conservative gov in UK have killed 120,000+ due to austerity) is given a pass.
Every single No platform argument dismantled:
So basically for all the moral posturing about "no platform", essentially, if you press most of these people hard enough, you can eventually get them to admit that they only "no platform the far right" when the far right is attacking non-class identities. When the far right attacks people on the basis of class (or even disability), suddenly they aren't "far right" anymore, but "bad guys, but not that bad" and no platform doesn't apply.
tl;dr: leftists will no platform someone who once made a nasty comment about women/racial group but happily debate and legitimise a group in power that kills poor people and the disabled.
because mainstream America is driven by force-fed hysteria rather than logic and introspection. just take a look at Zig Forums, twitter, and boomerbook and tell me the average heartrate is less than 100 bpm.
Joseph Johnson
American society is driven by mass hysteria and alienation. Neo liberals would side with fascism because its still capitalism and is in the interest of the bourgeois.
based
Connor Torres
Fascists are neoliberals. Their economic policy is the same, the word privatization literally comes from what the nazis did.
no because fascism is a form of capitalism, therefore anti fascism is compatible with anti capitalism. YES because
1. there are way more neoliberal/neocon centrist than fash and therefore its way easier to marginalize outright fash than the 50% of normie plebs who support muh small business and invade muh venezuela
2. Fash are hated by everyone so its an easier target. There is literally no safer take in history than fascism = bad.
3. Most of the left/liberal/progressive critics of fash are just that - LIBERAL. They're against fascism/racism but they are pro capitalism in general. They are either socdems who want mild reforms or neoliberals themselves like pic related
I mean people can cry and whine about anarkiddies throwing poo bottles at Nazis all day long but results are results.
Benjamin Perez
Also "neoliberalism" is kind of a loaded term. Just say capitalism. Okay, now deplatform capitalism.
Not so easy, is it?
Ian Anderson
Neoliberals wouldn't side with fascism because neoliberalism is the dialectical progression of fascism :^)
William Scott
Anyways, these demonstrations against fash are usually in response to a direct threat of some kind, or a fascist rally or something in a particular area (Dayton the other day). This doesn't happen where I live because the fash are disorganized, but the last demonstration I went to was against Bolsonaro, the neoliberal/fash (same, really) president of Brazil – but naturally enough there was a small army of police protecting his meeting with assorted hedge fund owners as he tried to convince American bourg to give him money – it prevented any disruptions. I mean, the left TRIED to deplatform him, so whaddya gonna do?
Don't really know what else to tell you. I suggest just joining an org. Even you don't accomplish much, at the least you'll get to develop some skills, experience, connections with other leftists, etc.
based lefty militia why don't we see more of this?
Angel Jones
"Be the change you want to see in the world" is my motto
Justin Barnes
Because deep down liberals (and most leftists) know that actual far-right/fascist groups are powerless losers, and are acting accordingly.
Reminder that Italian dockworkers refusing to load arms shipments to Saudi Arabia have probably done more to save the lives of non-whites in one day than a hundred anti-fascist rallies will ever hope to save.
Parker Sanders
I have a hard time believing this when I go over to Zig Forums where there's (a) murderous rage and desire to kill lots and lots of people and (b) hatred of antifa
Like, they'd love it if people didn't show up to screw with them or whatever
Robert Garcia
It's just pretty straightforward in that way. The idea that antifascist stuff is all a waste of time seems like contrarian nerd logic to me
Kayden Morgan
No platform worked in the day it was born. Back in the 1980s, you needed access to a large and expensive printing press to produce documents of any appreciable quality and information distribution relied on centrally controlled networks such as the press and media. It doesn't work on the internet, where any motherfucker can set up a news organisation and speak to the world. No platform on the internet requires that the infrastructure is turned into something so strictly monitored and controlled that the Stasi would think the monitoring intrusive. Of course you tell the ignorant fucks who keep blathering on about "No Platform" this and they pay no attention; presumably because they just want to larp and are incapable of original thought. It is simultaneously both hilarious and pathetic to watch the "anarchists" of Reddit repeatedly and consistently demand that a decentralised computer network that is the closest implementation to a hierarchy free system yet seen implements a centralised system of content control to restrict what the masses are permitted to read.
Luke Ortiz
It's precisely because fascists are powerless that they are attacked. Don't get me wrong, I hate fascism and want to see its demise.
Do schoolyard bullies pick on the top football players? No, they pick on the incel kids because they are powerless. It's the same with antifascist leftists. They don't pick on neolibs because they are powerful, while modern day fascists are literally incel kids.
Connor Ross
antifascist isnt a waste of time, but one gets the sneaking position that people are antifascist ONLY to avoid pointing out the crisis and conditions of capitalism that produced fascism to begin with.
also this. You can shit on incel white supremist internet nerds or OTOH actual people with power
Lucas Russell
This is incredibly naive. Lots of nazis among middle class professionals with families, especially cops and troops.
Yes, fascism is dead, and it is never coming back. Marx was wrong: the manufacturers have been utterly subjugated by the financiers.
Hudson Morales
ow this is the real terror. Digits on a computer screen being valued more than real human labor.
Josiah Brooks
the ur-fascism of the status quo
Nathan Smith
Which, again, is its own measure of powerlessness - assuming of course they actually carry through with the act, instead of impotently raging about it like they do 99% of the time.
What political gains did white nationalism achieve in New Zealand after the mosque shooting?
Wyatt Lewis
I don't know which possibility is sadder: that you're a poltard who has a folder of leftypol pics which he uses to troll threads or that you're actually this dumb
Charles Morris
All of these save the 4chan screencap are leftypol oc newfag
Alexander Cook
Yes and no. Fascists are people that recognize many of the ills of liberalism but can't see that these are problems created by capitalism and the bourgeoisie, because open borders and alternative lifestyles are profitable, and closed borders and family values aren't. They can be won over. But supporters of Nigel Farage and other liberal ziocons can't be because they aren't anti-establishment. They're a symptom of the establishment in decline, creating a false opposition with vague promises of reform that will never amount to anything.
Julian Cox
Just as bad is a stretch, but I agree with the point that neolibs should be deplatformed.
Where do we stop calling people neolibs and start calling them lefties? Bernie? Can anybody in US electoral politics actually be a lefty?
Carter Hernandez
Oh I agree, and it doesn't gain them anything, and is in fact counter-productive. But I think these white nationalist guys resort to that kind of thing because the other paths to building a movement are now blocked.
The guy who shot up that synagogue in the United States: he said "screw your optics, I'm going in" before doing it – that was his message to the rest of the Nazis. You are surely aware this is him giving up the "optics debate" which is how these guys argue over how to present themselves when marching down the street. Anti-fascist strategy is based around forcing them to blow their wad on the street via confrontation. Nazis are really not so disciplined and when they face adversity they tend to double down, or get really violent, instead of changing strategy.
Gabriel Fisher
But its not. It contradicts itself, or at least the antifa raisin-d'etre that the far-right/fascism is such a dangerous threat to society that it requires violent confrontation and ruthless harassment at all times (and even *that* probably won't be enough). As for spree shooters they barely touch on that aspect (i.e. that the shooters are alienated, poorly-socialised losers using a thin veneer of politics to justify their lashing out at an "acceptable" target) - Brenton Tarrant types are simply another example in the antifa mind that "the fashies must be crushed as a mortal threat to all we love".
At the end of the day its just empty street theater for people that feel they need to do "something" without really risking anything. Get back to me when antifa leftists are milkshaking MI5 officials, oil executives, military officers, instead of twats like Farage and Sargon.
Nathaniel Nelson
shut the fuck up
Evan Flores
There is literally nothing wrong with opposing migration though.
Nicholas Wood
Well then, why don't you milkshake an oil executive? Since you seem like such an effective leftist leader I'm sure you're racking up the victories. See, I can turn that around. But I'm not trying to make a cheap point here. Antifascist methods have a pretty long history with particular methods and structures and they have these for a reason. I'd recommend this interview if you'd like to learn more:
itsgoingdown.org/critical-reflections-front-lines-charlottesville/ I mean a woman died going up against these guys. Fashies do try to kill people at these things, or at least seriously hurt them. I'm not trying to sound dramatic or anything – that's just an objective fact.
Cooper Bennett
Only if you redefine "nazi" to mean "people I don't like." This is such a reddit/tumblr worldview.
I've worked with police in the past and there are plenty of liberal progressive types among them. I've never encountered a nazi.
The left protests neoliberal events like g8 summits all of the time. False dichotomy much? The left can and does do both. It's just obviously harder to actually "deplatform" neoliberals (i.e. you will get shot, and nothing short of a large popular movement will stop such events). This gay post smacks of "u-us nazis aren't really that bad, what about da bankers tho"
Landon Reyes
but i thoughts killing cops was an good thing
Julian Gonzalez
lol people who dont make cakes for gays and voted for donald trump are nazi middle class professionals
Matthew Adams
we must become the cops in our minds
Evan Russell
If you thinks about it this man was more antifasists than u
Robert Taylor
Further proof that Nazis must be relentlessly culled to protect our neighborhoods
I don’t find this funny. The state is about a million more times more powerful then all the leftists combined. If Nazis are radical enough to lash out at them now, it won’t be long before they go after you.
More like it’s going to prompt the cops to feed you to Nazis so they don’t get shot anymore.
Michael Garcia
More badgefags will be sent to the meatgrinder, that 4channer was just the beginning, first it's synagogue then it's mosque then it's cop and next I hope it's white shitlibs who are targeted
Adam Sanchez
Reactionaries can gore-post all they want IMO. It only makes it obvious to everyone else that they're clinically insane dangers to society and that executing them en masse is 100% warranted
Jaxson Peterson
Your social circle is not "everyone". Most people I've met don't give a shit about my Nazism.
William Anderson
Yeah, I’m so sure the state won’t be able to coopt fascists with money like they have literally every time in history.
Gavin King
I don't know what you're saying but I think it would be great if another Saint Brenton were to go through an antifa meetup with assault rifles
Jonathan Myers
Do they also know you keep pictures of dissected people on your computer? Because that would make you a social pariah in just about all social circles. My social circle includes people from fellow dockers to middle-class normies, and everyone hates a Nazi and for good reason. Wouldn't even matter if they didn't. Nazis are a complete blight, even if they were to suddenly become popular
Matthew Peterson
Nope, most of them are apathetic and would claim to hate Nazis because it's the socially acceptable thing to do. In reality, they don't give a shit, as my interactions with ordinary people have shown me.
Wyatt Stewart
Most people wouldn't call out a nazi to their face since nazis have a thuggish reputation. Alternatively, they just behave nice if you behave nice to them (which is natural, almost regardless of consequence). You can bet they talk about you behind your back though. Next time ask them if they're in favour of killing random civilians for having the wrong genes, as determined by some pseud 'geneticist' quack skinhead
Andrew Long
Normies talk about nearly everyone behind their backs. That's of no consequence. If someone is polite and helpful to them, they will be friendly with and even come to the defense of them, regardless of them being a Nazi. The innate brutality of the masses is thinly-veiled, they aren't as offended by the idea of killing as they act.
Aaron Gray
Good, there are a lot of nazis to kill
Jack Bailey
They don't care about nazis or commies. Unless you're saying your people are charismatic enough to HARNESS their brutality for your purposes, which is absurd.
Gavin Allen
t. basement faggot Why are Zig Forumsyps always so fucking delusional about real life, will you go on a rampage as well?
Ayden Thomas
Maybe not in your location, user
Matthew White
There is a striking difference between what normies claim to believe about a given group (nazis, etc.) and their one-on-one relationships with a particular member of that group. They will claim Nazism is horrendous but usually don't care about associating with or even befriending a particular Nazi individual.
You seeing someone attack a Nazi once is not the same thing as what normies in general are like.
Carter Williams
That hamplanet does not deserve to be called a woman, and she got what she had coming to her.
Jackson King
Pretty much what I've been saying the whole time. Fash start out with a lot of insincere "I'm just trying to help" nonsense, and when confronted start making veiled threats about murdering people, which is what they wanted to do anyways. Proves the antifascists right, as if anyone here needed any further evidence.
If anyone wants to know what fascists think just go to Zig Forums where you'll read in-depth discussions from neo-Nazis about how they want to poison water supplies, carry out mass shooting attacks and do drive-bys on minority neighborhoods. It's pretty sick stuff.
Grayson Thompson
I see Fascists though in that picture.
Jaxon Brown
If deplatforming guys like Steve Crowder and Alex Jones was a grave imminent threat to lefties then right wingers wouldn’t be mobilizing against it. You wouldn’t see the Koch brothers funding neocon initiatives dedicated to fighting it like we do now. Deplatforming the fascist right doesn’t hurt the left in the least. Even if Communists were deplatformed off the Internet they tend to thrive in those conditions, because communists are significantly better at underground organization been the right wing. The communist message appeals to people with little effort needed on the communist propagandists side. That’s because the communist’s message benefits from the charisma of truth. The fascist right wing message does not appeal to many people and is even is repulsive to some of his adherents. Fascism tends to wither and suffer without platforming and funding. Fascist proletariats without monied assistance are generally bad organizers with an unappealing message. It is only with a constant battering of inflammatory propaganda inciting cultural fear, nationalism and resentment that we see the fascist caucus (30 or so percent of a population) that is needed for the ruling class establishment politicians to subordinate legislative power to corporative fascist entities. Most fascists will agree that their ideology is ugly, but feel for either fundamental, cultural, racial or nationalist reasons people must embrace it.
Justin Sanchez
No, they're just as stupid as you.
I can't believe just how completely the left has shifted from a serious revolutionary movement focused on economics to bunch of disorganized college students trying to "bash the fash" while being cheered on by the corporate media. It's a fucking joke.
Chase Hill
Why do they need rallies? If you listen to many liberal pundits, they're all at the ballot box now.
Jace Bennett
No, fighting fascism is good and comrades are already against the Neo-liberal order, but unlike Neo-liberalism comrades can fuck up and hamper the shit out of Fascists and it's not like you can't do both. G20 summits already get big left wing attention and riots so I don't know where your idea of the left not fighting the Neo-liberal order came from. Beating up fascists is class war not idpol. Beating up only white fascists and reactionaries would be idpol Yes and No like an intelligent person who doesn't think in only black or white. People like Sargon or Crowder deserve no platform and should be opposed but addressing the current system which rules and controls society does not encourage the Neo-liberal and only serves to oppose the order because the neo-libs already control society and this can be done without platforming Sargonites and such. Debating and btfo out of a conservative minister is a good thing, debating and btfo out of some Sargonite shithead who will gain a billion youtube subs even if he loses is bad. What the fuck is this? if some neo-liberal said kill all disabled people and deport Jews but don't engage in Racial genocide you think people aren't gonna hate them just like a Nazi or their gonna let them get away with such comments?
Sebastian Reyes
Yes, let's just stand by while the liberals build the superweapon that is already being used on us.
You have literally never heard anyone say this apart from shitlibs on twitter, leftists despise fascists and neolibs equally. I swear half the topics on this board are "this right-wing caricature of us is actually real and we should deal with it"
Chase Richardson
The idea that what's standing in the way of a communist revolution in the West is the left refusing to stick up for Alex Jones not being able to make money selling dick pills is bizarre to me.
Benjamin Reyes
This Crowder guy sells shirts that say "socialism for fags" on them and self-proclaimed leftists spend more than a second thinking about this person as being some kind of entity whose needs should somehow concern them instead of him being a total class enemy. Shameful
Liam Myers
Meanwhile hundreds of accounts are shutdown by Facebook every time they do one of their purges and the vast majority of them are leftist or left-leaning.
Alexander Morales
i don't know how the posters here are chronically unable to recognize fascist afroturfing like OP, but here we are
Mason Baker
Thank you. My sentiments exactly. or just "this"
Aaron King
Maybe I should get one of those shirts.
Lincoln Allen
bump
Luis Fisher
Have you been on this board for more than a month? We shit on Neo-libs and Neo-cons because they're just discount fascists. Hardly happily, and debate is only there because as of the current situation leftists do not have the influence to shut down these low-key fascists because they manage to keep their power-levels down. Thus to stop them requires debate and arguments that dismantle their buzzwords and catchphrases.
