Hi all, pretty new to leftism here but have been trying to read up on Marx and Engels, Bakunin, Kropotkin etc...

Hi all, pretty new to leftism here but have been trying to read up on Marx and Engels, Bakunin, Kropotkin etc. but there is one thing that has been bugging me and it's been difficult to try and talk about it without being worried I'm instantly going to be labeled as a troll or whatever.

Recently whilst browsing leftist spaces, I've noticed posts and threads talking about "solidarity with our muslim comrades, ramadan mubarak" and "generic christianity bad" stuff. Note that I am not religious myself.

But as a gay guy, it makes me worried and uncomfortable when I see people talking about solidarity with any kind of religion that is homophobic, doesn't matter if they're christians, muslims, jewish. I just don't get the logic behind "solidarity" with religion when it has a huge history of being used as a tool of oppression, an excuse for inaction and a way to obfuscate class consciousness, even if people say "praying makes me feel better" the bad absolutely outweighs the good. It also just seems weird to see people talking about solidarity with islam whilst shitting on christians as to me they are mostly just two sides of the same religious coin, I'm not sure why so many leftists seem to give islam a free pass when it comes to all the shitty parts of it. It also seems at odds with the generally materialist outlook a large amount of leftist minds seem to have.

How do I say/signal/talk about this with other leftists without being accused of being some kind of troll? I'm not a fedora-tipping enlightened atheist type, I'm just a gay guy who's generally uneasy with people supporting any kind of religion that dislikes me for the way I was born.

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Stop using reddit and twitter

I'm bisexual and a Buddhist. What you're really afraid of are the Abrahamists. They're nothing but bad news.
How do you talk about it? Most people who claim to be left-wing and are also religious are probably liberals. Simply tell them you're gay and they'll feel bad about promoting Sharia and other nonsense. Unless you feel uncomfortable discussing it, in which case you're probably better off leaving the group because they might be homophobes. Sage because it belongs in /leftytrash/.

Fair enough user. Yeah, like I said, I'm not really against religion as a concept or anything, just any kind of bigoted shit that comes out of it, and certain ones seem to have that bigotry literally written in to their holy texts.

I only really studied Theravada Buddhism but it seemed pretty alright to me. A lot of views appealed to me and from a practical point the precepts are a pretty alright moral baseline. And it was nice to read up on what the concept of karma actually was instead of the dumb interpretation of some kind of cosmic revenge system.

My bad for posting in the wrong place.

Not a problem. Most newbies have trouble understanding what we like in a thread.
I explained a little bit about Buddhism in the other thread. To be honest, i don't live life as one. I'm, unfortunately, unable to cast away my problems very well. I don't live in an environment that's conducive to such a thing. You'll fit right in, anyways. Glad to see you stopped by our board.

oppression of a minority group isn't oppression of class.

"Homosexuals" is not the same as the proletariat.

The USSR oppressed Christians, why do you not have the same complaints about them?

do you have any proof of this claim?

Muslims deserve our solidarity. Islam doesn't. This isn't a very difficult distinction to make.

As leftists we should aspire to an atheism that's sensitive towards religious identity, be it Christian, Muslim or whatever else. People identify with these traditions because they feel alienated and abandoned by the capitalist mainstream. Dismissing them for it is utterly counterproductive.

It's important to them that we signal that our atheism contains a similar humility, solidarity, historicity, even spirituality (to an extent) to their belief system. Only then can we draw them over to our side.

atheism has nothing to do we leftism. Our issue is with mysticism and irrationality.
Atheism is just as subject to dogma, mythology, their own saints and devils and much as any religion is.

religions are just social structures that can be changed over time. being gay or really anything else for that matter is also partially socially constructed. you can change your "doctrines" of being gay as easily as they can change their anti-gay doctrines.
no one is giving islam a free pass; nevertheless, no one is going to become a bigot just to protect your feelings, either. your simplistic view of religion as an opponent as if theres no material underpinning to homophobia really reads like a person who would rather blame groups and entities in general strokes than actually face uncomfortable truths about people.
here's a good way to consider that first step in understanding the disgust people direct towards LGBT: do you think in places where religion was totally disenfranchised by socialists, like USSR or China, that homophobia went away over night? how you answer that question should tell you a lot about what you refuse to confront about human nature and how you integrate views of religion into it.

And? Just because atheists succumb to hypocrisy doesn't make religion virtuous either

I never said religion was virtuous. Atheism is just as much subject to the ills of religion as Islam is.
However religion is also just as able to take shape in a more rational context that you attribute to atheism

No. There was no religious oppression in the USSR, but many religious elements (not just christians) were counter revolutionary pre-WW2, and were rightly crushed.


Fuck off to reddit, homosexual deviant

I'm a gay guy who grew up in one of the most conservative parts of Texas during the George W. Bush years, so I know a thing or two about insane religious people, but I came off my hot-burning New Atheist phase awhile ago.

It really doesn't matter so much what other people think of your sexual orientation. It's kind of their problem. They can make it your problem but you deal with that when it happens. I try to treat people with a minimum standard of respect, and I expect that in return – they don't have to like or love me, or whatever. That is the most you can expect from people in this world. And I've found myself being able to get along with all kinds of different religious people. I was talking to someone in my socialist group recently who is in the Eastern Orthodox Church – not one of the most socially progressive churches in the world but we didn't have any issues with each other.

More broadly, my view is that religion is a man-made system – it can become interlocked with power structures; such as endorsing the domination of men over women in patriarchal societies. The suppression of homosexuality is another such thing. In any society where gays are oppressed, gays are seen as subversive to the "state of things" as they are. Religious institutions that are interconnected with power structures reinforce these oppressions, but they do not necessarily have to. I have never had problems with Muslims in the United States for this, and it's my understanding their social views (in America) are equivalent to Catholics, making them relatively liberal. The most intense homophobia (here in the U.S.) tends to come from evangelical Protestants. Evangelical Protestantism is the religion of the traditional power structure in America, and even while black Protestants in America can also be quite homophobic, they tend to not to ever organize politically in a structured way for anti-gay crusades like the WASPs do.

Basically, homophobia functions as a weapon inside a larger social control system. What kind of control? The control of men for the purposes of war and empire. This intensified in the age of imperialism because of the need to indoctrinate the male population into warmaking. Men were also conditioned and socially prohibited from expressing emotions other than anger. This is now causing many problems for men as the traditional male-dominated industries are in decline, and because women are allowed to express a wider array of emotions to each other – women developed a broader support base in the women's lib movement and have healthier outlets. Men do not so they are lonely, afraid and angry – see Zig Forums for an example of what that looks like.

Homosexuality points to the possibility of male relationships that are not strictly based on behaviors incidentally useful for imperialism: warmaking, competition, the urge to dominate, refusal to show emotion other than anger, etc. Male children are brought up being told not to act "like a faggot" even when they don't know what that means. You'll hear a lot of young men say things like "oh, faggot doesn't mean gay, it just means… don't act like a faggot I guess." What they mean is that a faggot is someone who expressions the wrong emotions. Religion can help reinforce these things but it's not strictly necessary: a lot of atheistic right-wing homophobes these days have given up the religion and just call us "degenerates" now.

I'm rambling a bit, but religion is sort of a distraction. We socialists should oppose imperialist war, homophobia, patriarchy, etc. – and religious institutions when they coincide and reinforce these things, but that is not necessarily the case.

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No, demolition of churches is not religious oppression.

>>>Zig Forums

yes it is

Also, another curious thing you're seeing now is how homosexuality is being conscripted into an imperial project. During the Bush years, gays were considered a subversive threat: if the U.S. military allowed them it would weaken America's ability to wage war in the Middle East and so on. Same-sex marriage was considered a threat to "Western civilization." But largely the gay movement was successful at winning its political demands, so you're seeing gay men being incorporated into empire like this CIA agent Pete Buttigieg.

You're also seeing homophobia among Muslims in the Middle East as a justification for waging continued war on them. Gays are now part of "Western civilization" (gee, thanks guys) and must be defended against the same threat from before. Trans people are now in the crosshairs, in particular, instead of gay men. But you can see how a gay identity is partially socially constructed as points out, and the society reconstructs this identity depending on its material, productive needs.

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People deserve solidarity not on the basis of their religion but on the basis of being human.

dude he's a captain in the army what are you on

humanity is a spook

lol keep believing that

islam enslaves its followers and everyone else they can get their hands on by dragging society back to 8th century arabia
Judaism financially enslaves the planet with no moral qualms
christianity is a hypocrite and the vatican has become a mafia operation

every leftist should read this book to understand what the bolshevik led revolution of russia really was
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's 200 years together
it's one of the most censored books in the world the official english translation removed half of the chapters
Be sure to read Bakunin's critique of Marx