If the revolution comes upon us, we should try to start the kessler cascade (too much junk in low earth orbit, all satellites destroyed) to make GPS, satellite surveillance, many other military technologies totally useless. Any space nerds wanna discuss how feasible this would be? It would have the added benefit of trapping us on earth thus forcing us to stop destroying it.
Revolutionary tactic: Kessler cascade
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Also feel free to post any outlandish revolutionary tactic ideas you might have
No, this is stupid. The only way we would have the ability to do this is if we are in control of a somewhat powerful country (not Cuba or DPRK). In which case it’d make more sense to build up socialist space infrastructure do to the economic benefits these things provide. Also establish space communes.
stuff like this?
Nice idea. People who work with cybersecurity could build their own traffic switches in their spare time and build them in and throttle Amazon resellers and do all sort of little sabotage, especially if their direct superior has problems paying rent too, and maybe people will have to go to the general strike or the protest if the bullshit spectacle mind police crashes on the day before, and it will be very all encompassing too and really liberating and exonormative and all the other things and it will touch the heart of the 68ards too, maybe give them a heart attack for good measure and really big tech is the Stolypin of the era but instead of railroads it builds alienation.
And the crazier people will jam drones and maybe blow up a power substation or two.
Really, there are no winter palaces and finland stations anymore but at least in parts of Europe, don't know about America but I suppose it's worse because muh bootstraps, infrastructure of all sorts is basically starting to slowly fall apart.
Badiou was right when he wrote that the gilets jaunes started out just wanting more busses and got depressed when they realized that socdem is gone forever and the insurrection is not ready yet.
It sounds like the worst anarkiddie daydream but I don't care.
I read this 3 times and I only understand about a third of what you wrote fam
We cause a Resonance Cascade.
GPS is in MEO, surveillance usually LEO. Initiating Kessler would be cutting off your nose to spite your face - and how would you do it, continuous anti-sat missile launches? Porky would be harmed, but so would science (and whatever nascent industrial infrastructure is present in orbit). Assuming victory, it'd take decades to fix.
Trying to pull off some shitty Bond villain type plot does not seem very revolutionary
wth are you talking about? we can attract both boomers and zoomers if we have memey / bond villain style plans
Decades to fix but millennia of communism to live.
This will work against the Posadists because ICBMs have apogees well above all this space junk. Not only would ICBMs get shot down by this space junk, so too will the Communist UFOs coming to help us.
Russia is developing "Fractional Orbit Bombardment", which will get around this problem since the missile's apogee is only 150 km. Once those missiles come on-line, we could do both the Kessler cascade and a Posadist nuclear war.
In 1961, NASA came up with a brilliant idea called Project West Ford. This was just before solar panels and sophisticated electronics could be used on satellites. (Lots of innovation happened in the 60s.) So NASA decided to launch 480 MILLION copper needles into orbit to reflect radio waves off. Many are still in orbit because NASA placed them in a medium earth orbit.
It might be a very good tactic for the revolution, but, as you said, it would trap us on Earth. Do we really want that? The planet isn't going to last forever, and at some point we will need to go to space for resources. Also, even if we are trapped, I can still see us fucking over the planet. Then again, I feel that a cascade might occur soon even if we don't try to cause it just by accident, as it really only takes a few collisions to start it from what I gather. Now, a question that I would like to be answered by the science nerds, can we actually fix a cascade once it starts (or at least bypass it). If so, then yea, causing it might be a good strategy.
Well it might happen by accident, every time commercial satellites fuck up their orbit and smack into each other there is a statistical chance to cause this. And basically everybody with the ability to launch a rocket into Low Earth Orbit could potentially cause it. There even are non-turbo-compressor rocket designs that could reach LEO.
Well that would be the case anyway. It will not be possible to live on another planet without constant supplies from earth for a few centuries.
Military doesn't need satellites, they could switch to a type of high altitude lighter than Air "platform" basically tiny Airships with solar panels an batteries.
You are mostly going to hurt science and commercial stuff, the only reason anybody might do this intentionally is to sabotage the construction of space based orbital weapons platforms.
Actually a lot of modern missile guidance specifically uses GPS to function and converting them off of that would be a very long difficult process that would end up leaving the replacement aerial drones vulnerable to counter-drone attacks and would massively ramp up costs just to do a replacement.
Funnily enough GPS is a specific set of satellites working at a specific orbital height, you could theoretically knock out GPS without affecting GLONASS that Russian-based uses, which uses satellites at higher geosynchronous orbit.
Comrades with even the most remote interest in this should look up Gerald Bull and his Project Babylon, which was an attempt to build a Space Gun for Iraq in the late 1980s; it would have allowed Saddam to launch satellites into orbit at a fraction of the cost of using conventional rockets. Gerald Bull was assassinated by fucking Mossad for this and his work on Scud missiles.
Posadism has no scientific basis. Marxist ideas are developed around humans and human society. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the material conditions of otherworldly beings will be the same. The concept of “politics” or an “economy” may be entirely foreign to them for all we know.
What's it like being the stupidest Earthling on the planet?
I know you are but what am I?
If you exist under conditions of any level of scarcity then economy is going to be a thing and so will politics. Unless there's parts of the universe where magic is a thing, then they are going to be aware of many similar concepts.
Also you can apply some amount of Marxist theory to certain non-human species on earth so stuff it.
Keywords here being “some amount” and “certain”. There’s material scarcity at the bottom of Mariana’s trench, that doesn’t mean there will inevitably be a communist angler fish economy.
ngl lad this is like, hyper retarded. especially when all the debris will hit each other and we get endless bombardment from orbit by fucking trash until we all die.
There has only been one accidental high speed satellite collision in the entire history of spaceflight.
All drones in use right now use inertial navigation as their primary navigation system. GNSS is only used for precision, if it doesn't work, every drone falls back to inertial navigation.
Which makes the RQ-170 hijacking story suspicious…. I don't think we'll ever know what happened there.
Of course not, because angler fish aren't cooperative within their own species, sentient, or exploited by a more powerful class, aliens that were able to advance to space travel would naturally be also sentient and cooperative within their own species. And those qualities would naturally give rise to marxist class conflict.
I think it depends, highy cooperative species that evolved like social insects, where selection acts mostly on groups rather than individuals, might be shocked and appaled to learn that we needed a guy to come up with Marxism after thousands of years of class antagonism
You're right comrade, but as you pointed out, they would still be communists, or something like it. So much for the "terrestrial" left!
You can put a cameras on "flying military stuff" and point it at the ground and have a computer compare it to a map, you can use accelerometers to navigate over featureless terrain or oceans with enough accuracy to compensate for the weaknesses of visual navigation.
That's interesting but as a satellite launcher it's rather limited because they would have to survive high accelerations. It also suffers from single stage to orbit problems, so to fix that you would probably go for a smaller cannon that launches sabot rockets.
Enlighten me does it really need it to be high speed collisions ?
True, but it'd still be a huge program to refit and rebuild, and until that happens a lot of the weapons wouldn't work, period. A lot of precision guided munitions using GPS know that they're at their destination and explode based on the system.
Yeah probably, this is something I've thought about. You could probably use solid-fuel rockets to finish the ballistic arc. After that you'd just need relatively small explosives that produce a lot of fragmentation and shrapnel.
Would a eusocial species ever develop advance technology though? Where would the selection pressure be? A large part that drives human innovation is our desire to kill the fuck out of each other in ever advanced ways. I mean the space race was literally a giant pissing contest.
has cooperative brood-care, but also casts. So how would that apply?
The people that do the actual development of technology, quite often do not care beyond having the opportunity to realise their technological creativity/ambition. The competition as driver for advancement myth is as persistent, as it is inaccurate.
Sorry if this is just semantics (it is), but angler fish are sentient, just not sapient. Sentience is the ability to feel and perceive, Sapience is the ability to reason and think.
Sorry fam, I actually want a habitable planet when capitalism finally shits the bed for good. We need the use of space.
Why would refit be difficult? You can make this from off the shelf components. If you are really rushed and don't care much beyond making stuff work quickly you can use smartphones, those have cameras computers and accelerometers, granted those would be a bit limited in "capabilities" Militaries might not go for that, and probably be incapacitated, fine i concede this point. Do munitions really depend on GPS for detonation ? would that not make them susceptible to jamming ?
Oh right this was about producing Kessler syndrome, i had forgotten that, and was thinking about this in the context of using it for putting up satellites. I even had thought about using thermal glue to encase foldable solar panels so they don't get shredded during hard acceleration phase, and basically melting the glue once in orbit, maybe using waste heat from the rocket-phase. Oh you would not use shrapnel, you'd just smack into something.
For the Kessler cascade, maybe not, whatever creates loads of space junk flying in all directions is all that's needed. High explosive fragmenting shells in space could do the trick without high speed collisions.
As I said earlier in the thread, GNSS is only used for precision. In the event of war between major powers, it can be assumed that GNSS will be knocked out, so almost all weapons systems can use other navigation techniques.
For example, Tomahawk cruise missiles primarily use Terrain Contour Matching for navigation. They also have DSMAC, which is pretty much a camera that looks for the target.
Just dropped in to say humans under communism are eusocial, and the natural state of humanity is egalitarian eusociality. Currently, workers who more often than not never procreate (incels, wine aunts) produce large amounts of surplus and rearing labor to support a breeding, ruling class (who use inheritance thus breeding to maintain their class) and the workers only procreate in any case to make more workers or servitors for the rulers. Wars between countries or alliances of countries are either functionalist (steal resources, remove impurity, kill memes/ideology that is maladaptive) or based on hive survival (muh country/ethnicity survive better, me kill threat country/ethnicity hur dur). When humans kill each other they do so not out of surface emotions but the deep set evolutionary motives that created those emotions. Disgust for "degenerates" is a holdover of some kind of herd immunity like response to behaviors they responded to as bad for survival. Culling the weak is done when the weak can't be helped. This is my pet theory and by no means super solid, but I believe it's a possible interpretation. Society itself, civilization and culture, it is just eusociality expressed in an animal with higher cognitive function.
Why do we need selection pressure?
Real competition is like when dogs nibble and nip at each other for play and whichever is stronger, cleverer, or more aggressive is considered more dominant. Competition like capitalists describe is perversion of a drive that is fundamentally not harmful and is healthy into one that does great harm to the species. Competition is playful, not violent or something one risks their life in.
Primitive communism had a whole community raising children. It aligns with eusocial models.
This is an incorrect reading of eusociality. The castes that exist in bees or ants have functional differences in the biology of their species. This would be like saying black people are hormonally distinct and thus stronger than whites and thus make good slave laborers as a class. It's not equitable in that way. Humans have no genetic ruling class per se, nor do our males have an ability to receive fertilization from females. Ants for example, have biological roles, but they are flexible, more like the differences between a buff dude and a skinny dude (exercise makes the physique). These are comparable sorts of structures, but otherwise "castes" should not be understood in a limited way, given that they are not universal in eusocial species (not all ants have castes). Sexual division of labor is far more important a part of eusociality than just castes. Ants of one caste have sub groups and they can fill roles as needed, changing roles throughout their lives or as roles are emptied when a member dies. The worker ants also reproduce but only create other male/worker ants whose eggs have to be fertilized.
I would argue that the drive to kill eachother comes from group selection which would be even stronger in eusocial species
Social insects castes are sort of like [imperfect analogy incoming] capitalists and proletariet, except instead of capitalists the reproductive individuals are themselves the means of production. Decisions about the means of production (this queen is old and isn't laying enough eggs, we need a new one) are made more or less democratically by the worker caste. Alternatively you could view food production as the "means of production." Decisions about this are also made democratically by the worker caste. Either way, natural selection shows us communism is the best system.
Or maybe what it shows us is that the capitalist class should be allowed to exist, but only at the mercy of the workers, and the slightest slip up means the workers will murder and replace the capitalist with a younger more adaptable one, if we take this imperfect analogy to its logical conclusion
No they aren't you massive sped.
None of the actions in an insect colony are performed consciously, they react to chemical markers. Worker ants have a set series of roles they go through in the colony starting underground and then moving up, and after entering one role they never go back.The ants you see at the top of the nest trying to defend it or bring in food never contact the queen. There is not much more descision-making in a colony of eusocial animals than there is among the cells of your body. The whole colony system is just an evolutionary happy accident with no communication or decision-making, only very refined action, that exists because the queen can continue the species by making more colonies even though the workers don't breed. There is no conflict between the castes because the workers don't have any interests whatsoever, they are sterile appendages of the thing that breeds as opposed to being individuals or a group that can get something at the expense of another group. Why do you think there are still bees that die when they sting? Ah yes, democratically electing the queen, you do realise that female naked mole rats compete chemically to suppress the fertility of each other until there is only one queen right? It's literally just pussy stank.
Stop trying to anthropomorphise animals.
You do understand that high infant mortality after 9 months of costly gestation makes it pretty hard for human beings to have a breeding caste, let alone queens, right? Human infants are much larger than chimpanzee infants but both have similarly-sized birth canals, if the trend was towards eusociality you wouldn't see that. And that the population of countries with high childlessness is currently in unsustainable decline unless you count immigration to them.
I know all of this I just believe it's easier to communicate with simple language. When individuals give off chemical signals based on their surroundings, and the sum of these chemical signals determines collective action, you have what is essentially a democratic process without the need for conscious decision making.
My point is natural selection led to a system where the workers, who are non sentient insects, make "decisions" about the "means of production" in a quasi democratic manner.
You're showing your youth here insofar as you think that any sort of refit or rebuild would be needed. The US war machine's first major outing with cruise missiles was gulf war 1. Back in those days, the GPS satellite cluster was a new idea and the functionality turned out to be a bit ropey under actual battlefield conditions. As a result, the electronics packages on the missiles ended up following major roads from the coastline to Baghdad in order to locate their targets. There were a huge number of TV news crews sat on the major roads, so you ended up with all this spectacular footage on the television of missiles belting along the side of a freeway at something like Mach 5 and 500 feet altitude. Be surprised if there wasn't some on YouTube.
Anyway, TL;DR: Turns out the military are quite thoughtful when putting bombs in heads and have already planned for such events.